How Does the Dead Sea Exist in Home World?

[Philosopher1701]

I didn't really understand this in the article. Chronopolis never existed in Home World's timeline, so why would it exist in place of the Sea of Eden? There wasn't a Time Crash in Home World.

[stenir]

Well, until I find the statement I'm looking for regarding Chronopolis' Time Crash experiment, wouldn't it make sense for Chronopolis to exist in both worlds?

Here's the main facts I know off the top of my head:

1.) Chronopolis was sent backwards to approximately 7600 B.C., correct? Since the separation between Another and Home world didn't occur until 1010 A.D., then both worlds would have Chronopolis in their history (because it was there before the split).

2.) Chronopolis becomes the El Nido islands, and the population of Chronopolis becomes the "ancestors" of modern day El Nidians (not sure what you'd call them....Serge, etc.). So if Chronopolis didn't exist in Home World, how could Serge and the islands and the inhabitants be there?

[Mr. Molecule]

Well, stenir, there's some analysis claiming that the dimensional split occurred when Zeal fell, which would place it well before the time chronopolis was sent back. Not really the issue for this thread, I think.

"The Sea of Eden became the Dead Sea in the Home World because of the incident 10 years ago at Opassa Beach. Serge lived on in that world, causing the time-line leading to destruction (which Crono and friends nullified) to come back into existence again. In the Other World, where Serge died, the Sea of Eden and Chronopolis remain as is. In other words, the Dead Sea indicates that if Serge lives, the future will probably lead back to destruction."

The quote is from this excellent article. Essentially, the article states that the area  Dead Sea/Sea of Eden is the actual area of the Time Crash, and the borders function like a massive gate leading to the future; that is, in 7600 BC or whenever the Time Crashed cities were thrown back to, it lead to 2300AD, and now it leads to 2300 plus 10000yrs give or take. (Of course, in the Dead Sea, time's been frozen. Again, that's another debate.) When Serge survives in 1010, he somehow causes the actions of the Heroes of Time to be nullified (yet another debate we won't discuss here) and the time in the Dead Sea reflows to show a ruined future, abeit is a disjointed and frozen manner. So the time crash DID NOT happen in Home World; however, it happened in the world it split off from, so the effects of the Time Crash are clearly visible: the massive "gate" surrounding the dead sea still exists, and due to Time Traveler's Immunity, the colonizers from Chronoplis still exited this gate and created and colonized El Nido. This is analogous to Robo still existing at the end of CT even though the timeline that created him no longer was viable.

However--as I was typing this, a new issue showed me its ugly head. As time re-flows, the Dead Sea should reflect the future from the moment its existence started--7600BC or thereabouts. However, residents in El Nido clearly refer to the Sea of Eden changing to the Dead Sea in 1010--Marge does, at least. How could they have observed this? What rules say that the Dead Sea only reflects the ruined future after Serge is saved?

I propose that the article is flawed. It rest on the assumption that the split was somehow retroactive--that is, when the split occurred in 1010, the split dimension had its history reordered. I propose that's not how split dimensions work. That is, each inhabitant of Home and Another were the same person, in the same world, until 1010. This sounds elementary, until you realize that due to the time crash, and event in the future SHOULD effect the dimension's past. Hpwever, for some reason--let's call it Rule 1 of Parallel Dimensions for now--this doesn't happen. The past of a parellel world has immunity from change even in the case of a time crash. I'll flesh it out later--right now I'm very tired. So tear the theory apart, build it up, and for God's sake give it a proper name. I'll be back later, rested, to give it a decent go.

[stenir]

Once again, I'd have to review the script. Perhaps this was another one of those "Lost in Translation" mishaps.

But still, the Time Crash is not the question here. And I agree, the Time Crash happened in Another World. But that brings up another point. If the Time Crash happened in Another World, as it did, then why wouldn't it happen in the Home World?

Isn't this thought basing itself on which came first, the dimensional split or the Time Crash?

I hope I'm not mucking this up. Or at least explaining it semi-correctly.

The effects that you speak of regarding the Time Crash: when you state about how the people from Chronopolis exit the gate and colonize El Nido, this happens in both worlds. The dimensional split referenced throughout the game occurs in 1010 A.D., which means that the split then was not retroactive.

The question, at least for me, is what purpose did Chronopolis have? Was it only just to deal with the events taking place within the game? Or was it a town all to itself and then got thrown into this? Hmm.

Although, I think it was solely created for Project-Kid.

And as far as how anyone could have observed the future changing....well, you have to remember that if Lavos destroy's the world, doesn't he also make it impossible for Chronopolis to exist? Therefore, there must be some difference in the strength and stability of the massive "gate" from the Chronopolis in Another World and that of Home World. Home World may not have a Chronopolis in the future, but it certainly had one in the past.

[Zaperking]

It's not that hard to concept :/

Firstly, theres a time line where Serge doesn't even exist, but the future is saved, Lavos never comes out, and Chronopolis is functional by 2400AD. At that point, it is sent to the past back to 10000ish.

Then, with Chronopolis in the time line, Lavos is still defeated by the Heros' time traveling efforts in 1000AD.
Here we can assume that to the true time line, Serge dies regardless.

However, when Kid decides to go back to the moment of his death in 1010AD to save him, a totally new dimension is created stemming from that point because Serge lived.
Technically, Home World had a Chronopolis that had time crashed, but it was destroyed/merged with the dead future.

So the point is that the time crash didn't even happen in Another World, but rather Chronopolis was sent from another time line to Another Worlds'. We can't be sure that Chronopolis has to time crash again in the future of Another World for it to exist. It might as well have TTI. Rather, having it time crash again would only screw up the whole time line. As CC states - every time you time travel to the past, the future is destroyed and a new one is recreated.

[inode]

When Kid refers to the Time Crash she says that the dimensions start ripping apart.  If we take what she says word for word, then there is more than one dimension involved in the Time Crash; not just the Home World.  This is widespread destruction of the timelines like what Belthasar warns the party about; i.e. the Time Devourer's destruction.  The Dead Sea, however, only shows us the original future which was eliminated when Crono and his friends defeated Lavos on the original timeline, but because of Serge's actions, will happen again in the Home World.  I'm still not fully sold on this; I think there is something more that needs to be addressed.  I'm just not sure as to what.

[stenir]

Let me see if I've got the main timeline regarding Chronopolis down.

THE FIRST VERSION OF ANOTHER WORLD
The first world was that of Another World. We know that to be true. AW has the Time Crash, sending Chronopolis back to 7600 B.C., approximately. So, now we are on the newer Another World. Also, this means that Chronopolis should have TTI, if I remember correctly. Nothing done to the timeline between 7600 B.C. and 2400 A.D. should affect Chronopolis.

THE SECOND VERSION OF ANOTHER WORLD
AW, after having the Time Crash, now has Chronopolis. But there's a problem: 1020 A.D. comes and goes, but the events needed to save Schala cannot be accomplished. Lavos is still destroyed, etc. etc. At this point, Belthasar realizes Serge needs to be alive in order to save Schala. Belthasar sends Kid back ten years to save Serge.

HOME WORLD IS CREATED
Although Kid has returned to the past of Another World, her decisions cause a large distortion. Perhaps it is the energy created by Chronopolis that causes the separate worlds to exist. Granted, perhaps Home World always existed in the multi-verse scheme of things, but that's currently beside the point. Home World theoretically pops into existence the moment that Kid arrives in 1010 A.D. Her actions cause Serge to survive.


It is the second version of Another World and the newly-created Home World in which Chrono Cross takes place.

Have I got it correct? I want to make certain that I have that down correctly before I make any further thoughts on the matter.

[Mr. Molecule]

You're not 100% correct, I think.

The 'keystone dimension" is the Compendium termto refer to the timeline left after CT. That is, Lavos is defeated, and thus Belthasar has access to an unruined future and creates Chronopolis. Everything is peachy.

However, Lavos calls Chronopolis back in time as a backup plan, and the planet counters with Dinopolis from an alternate timeline. This new timeline, with Chronopolis and Dinopolis in it, is Keystone T-2, and in 1010-1020 is Another World. El Nido is created in this world by Chronopolitans exicting their city. An important thing to note is that the Time Crash is nothing like CT time travel. It's a cataclysmic event. A huge area of land is involved. The exact rules involved are unknown, but it is suspected that the perimeter of the time crash area functions as a gate--thus, people travelling through have TTI have time traveler's immunity, but the area itself doesn't, which is why the Dead Sea shows a different future.

In convention, the time split occurred in 1010. However, it's important to know it was inentional and completely planned. Balthasar needed two dimensions so the CHrono Cross could be created and seperate Schala and Lavos. So it's not that 1020 came and passed without event. Kid was sent back in time to save Serge specifically to split the dimensions. And it's the salvation of Serge, not Kid's merepresence back in time, that causes the split.

This is basically what the article I linked says. I have an issue with this article however, as I outlined in my previous post. It perpetuates the idea that the time split was somehow retroactive, which is fallacious.

stenir: There's controversy regarding basically every aspect of the Time Crash because of how much we don't know. I've outlined basically all of what we know for sure; the rest is speculation. Especially regarding the enigma wrapped in a mystery that is the Dead Sea. Even what I've outlined isn't universally accepted--there's a lot of speculation about when the split actually occurred.

[stenir]

Well, I should have made the statement earlier, but unless that actual action of saving Serge occurs, nothing would change, correct?

What I mean is that just because Kid goes back in time doesn't mean she has to save Serge. It's only when she does that Home World is created. For all we know she could say "Screw this, mate" and just let it happen as it did before.

[Mr. Molecule]

That's the way I read it, yes. What with all the talk about Serge being the "missing piece" and all. Time travel itself doesn't cause dimensional splits, it's this very specific instance that does.

[Dark Serge]

I know this is a bump but I wanted to specify another theory.

I personally think Chronopolis existed before the split, and even continued to exist in Home World. But with Serge alive as the Arbiter of Time, it couldn't do anything. The dragons were kept sealed, but FATE could no longer utilize the Frozen Flame. Chronopolis continued to exist quietly in Home World, but couldn't act. Eventually it was destroyed by some weird incident (?) and created the Dead Sea. There's actually evidence FATE still exists in Home World, because when you get to Miguel, he states the Frozen Flame is there, and he says FATE would rather destroy it then to let Serge get his hands on it. After that FATE destroyed the Dead Sea and the Frozen Flame, and probably itself.

[Lavodox]

All of this theory is making my head spin. I'm still trying to make sense of all of this.

[Dark Serge]

It's very simple though.

Another world - Serge dies (killed by Lynx) so FATE can continue to control the world with the Frozen Flame
Home world - Serge lives (rescued by Kid) and FATE lies in wait for his death, wich will unfortunately not happen anytime soon. Eventually Chronopolis ages and becomes a ruin. Viper and his gang go to investigate the Frozen Flame but are taken captive in time. The Sea of Eden is now renamed The Dead Sea. Chronopolis has become a ruin and is totally destroyed by FATE when Serge tries to get the Frozen Flame there.