If you really want to keep pursuing that the Frozen Flame really is just a piece of Dreamstone, how do you justify it?
Interestingly, my conclusions are reinforced by something you yourself wrote recently in this thread:
Individual statements are underlined, with proofs following.
Dreamstone:
Dreamstone was present on the planet in 65million BC, before Lavos landed. The first time we visit Ayla, she pulls out her "Red Rock," the Dreamstone. Considering that Dreamstone was present on the planet before Lavos's landing, we can reasonably assume that it is a product of the planet.
Rapid, Abnormal Human Psychological Development due to Lavos and Frozen Flame:
In Chrono Cross, it is explicitly stated that the human mind developed three times faster than it normally would have, due to contact with Lavos, probably through the Frozen Flame.
It is stated in Chrono Trigger that someone/some people came in contact with a "Red Rock," (probably not Dreamstone, but the Frozen Flame, because Ayla and company certainly weren't super inteliigent when they had the Dreamstone). With this power gained from this "Red Rock," Zeal was created.
Dreamstone Absorbs Lavos's Energy:
We know that the Mammon Machine was made of Dreamstone, and that the Red Knife made of Dreamstone, when thrusted into the Mammon Machine, absorbed energy from the Mammon Machine and became the Masamune. The energy that the knife aborbed was probably Lavos's, seeing as how the Mammon Machine extracted Lavos's energy. Henceforth, we can reasonably assume that Dreamstone abosrbs Lavos's energy.
Previously, I had held that the Frozen Flame and the Dreamstone were completely different. But your post raised some intriguing ideas, and I began to ask myself, “What is the Frozen Flame actually made out of?”
I had never liked the idea that it was just some nondescript splinter of Lavos that had fallen off at some point. The problem with this “just a splinter” idea is that, all else being equal, it makes the Frozen Flame non-unique. A piece of Lavos’ shell falling off would be like you shedding a piece of skin. What’s so special about that? Why aren’t there
other Frozen Flames, then? Perhaps GrayLensman had something similar in mind when he proposed that the Flame was a Lavos Bit rather than simply a piece of Lavos’ shell.
But when you mentioned that the Dreamstone was so good at absorbing Lavos’ energy, and reminded us that it accelerated the evolution of humans, I thought to myself, “Golly, there might be a connection here.” And indeed, I got to thinking about the answer to my question of what the Frozen Flame is actually made out of.
Also, why would Dreamstone absorb Lavos's power if Lavos had Dreamstone in or on its body? It would be like living with a parasite on it!
Consider the possibility that that which splintered off of Lavos was
not simply a piece of its shell, but something else altogether. We know that Lavos emanates energy; you don’t have to be touching Lavos physically in order to get a whiff of its power. The Mammon Machine is proof enough of that. So when Lavos emanates power, what substances in the world are most sensitive to it? You said it yourself: Dreamstone.
Dreamstone is therefore an excellent receptacle for Lavos’ power. But it is also said to have kindled the fundamental passions in human beings: love and hate, and so forth. Therefore, without actually making any declarations yet, there is at least the possibility that a piece of Dreamstone that has absorbed something from Lavos might have a strange sort of effect in humans, awakening in them other fundamental passions that relate to Lavos’ identity. That’s just a bit of speculation on my part, but it happens to describe the Frozen Flame very accurately.
So what happened? How was the Frozen Flame created? Well, I’ve always held up the analogy of Sauron’s One Ring to explain Lavos’ Frozen Flame:
The Frozen Flame is like the One Ring, the essence of Lavos captured in earthly Dreamstone. It is supposedly responsible for a great deal of influence in human thinking over the ages. It bestows incredible powers upon its wielder, but it isn’t a passive object of power like the Triforce in Zelda. Instead, it plays an active hand in things. You might say it has a sort of mind of its own.
Given Lavos’ nature, the Frozen Flame does not exist completely in normal time—like its name suggests—and it apparently can be utilized for time manipulation. That much was said explicitly in Radical Dreamers, and implied in Chrono Cross by the Chronopolis facilities.
The special thing to understand about the One Ring is that, by investing his own power into it, Sauron made himself more powerful than he was by himself. The Ring took on an identity of its own—not necessarily a sentience, but at least an awareness—and this identity was connected to, yet distinct from Sauron.
Similarly, the Frozen Flame is not merely a projection of Lavos’ power. It has its own identity. Unlike the Ruling Ring, the Frozen Flame
does seem to have a consciousness, as it actually speaks to Serge & Co. late in the game—something Lavos
never does in any of the games. While being based upon Lavos’ power, the Flame is somehow
more than just a manifestation of Lavos. As its own entity, the Flame is unique, and special. And the fact that there is apparently only one Frozen Flame in the world reinforces this idea of it being unique and special. And in that spirit, just as the One Ring was an accomplishment that Sauron probably could not have reproduced—much like Fëanor’s silmarils—so too was the Frozen Flame perhaps the sort of accomplishment that Lavos could not have recreated.
For it must be—and this is the greatest puzzle that follows from my point of view—that if the Frozen Flame is unique, then it could not have been created simply by having intercepted a typical Lavos emanation. If it had been created that way, then there would be other Frozen Flames as well by virtue of statistical probability. Instead, something special must have happened in this instance…something that never occurred before or after this one, extraordinary instance. And what was that?
I’m not sure. Perhaps it had to do with Lavos’ original crash. Or perhaps it followed from some special event that was not outlined in the games. The question remains before us. But if I or someone else can come up with a good answer, then the position that the Frozen Flame is a piece of Dreamstone to which something special happened, will be a completely plausible artistic interpretation of the nature of the Flame.
The theoretical combination of Dreamstone’s passion-awakening powers and Lavos’ raw energy accurately describes the function of the Frozen Flame, and can account for the rapid evolution of humanity. The idea that Dreamstone, rather than a piece of Lavos’ shell, was the physical host for the essence—the “splinter”—of Lavos gets rid of the concern that there ought to be other splinters of Lavos’ shell, and thus other Frozen Flames. The final piece of the puzzle—explaining why this piece of Dreamstone in particular, and only this piece, went on to become the Frozen Flame—remains unsolved. But I think it makes for some interesting thought.
Now, permit me to address some of your concerns with this idea:
Gray Lensman has already set forth indisputable proof that the Frozen Flame is a piece broken off of Lavos, and it's common knowledge that Dreamstone is a product of the planet.
I think Gray would be the first to point out that “indisputable proof” is pretty strong language. His ideas are usually quite sound, but that doesn’t make them irrefutably true, because the Chrono games are works of art rather than physical realities, and they must be interpreted artistically rather than scientifically. It would certainly be possible for one person to look at an event in the Chrono series and come up with one sound explanation for it, while another look at that same event and come up with a different, yet equally sound explanation. For instance, the question of whether or not Lavos is sentient has legitimate arguments on both sides.
What it all comes down to is that GrayLensman is not the final authority on all things Chrono. He’s a good guy and I like reading his theories, but if I disagree with them I’m not going to march in lockstep with his interpretation just because he’s the Guru of Reason…and neither should you. The appeal to authority to make an argument is usually a logical fallacy.
Why would you want to keep saying that Dreamstone is not unique to the planet, is present on other planets, and possibly came from Lavos? Because it's entertaining?
I never said this. I think you misunderstood my idea to mean that I believe Dreamstone was actually present on Lavos’ shell before it crashed onto Crono’s world. Actually I believe no such thing.
Inasmuch as “The Planet” seems to be a unique entity, I would be prepared to accept, for the sake of artistic harmony, the idea that Dreamstone might be unique to “The Planet.” But if it occurs naturally elsewhere in the universe, just as perhaps other planets have living identities of their own, then so be it. It doesn’t matter much one way or the other for the sake of this discussion.
Contact with Dreamstone didn't make humans abnormally intelligent, and the Frozen Flame did. That's all I really need to know to disprove the Frozen Flame = Dreamstone theory.
In this case, you are mistaken:
It all began aeons ago, when man's
ancestors picked up a shard of a
strange red rock...
Its power, which was beyond human
comprehension, cultivated dreams...
In turn, love and hate were born...
Only time will see how it all ends.
The Dreamstone is obviously very special and had a deep impact on human nature. Whether this effect was direct or indirect is a mystery, but the Dreamstone does seem to have curious physical properties that would suggest the possibility, although not the certainty, this passage from Zeal can be interpreted
literally. I want to return to an idea I mentioned in a previous post in this thread:
Perhaps the Dreamstone is transparent to the identity of the Frozen Flame. And remember that in this case we have a "missing link" between Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross: Namely, Radical Dreamers, where the Frozen Flame unmistakably resembled the Dreamstone. Inasmuch as CC was a remake and elaboration upon RD, it is almost impossible to imagine that the Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame are unrelated.
What this means is that it may be possible to step outside of the Chrono series for a moment, and consider the possibility that the concept of Dreamstone was reworked for Radical Dreamers, where some of its ideas became a part of the Frozen Flame. And then for Chrono Cross the concept of the Frozen Flame was reworked, still retaining some of the original Dreamstone concept. If true, it would mean that even if there is no direct in-character link between CT Dreamstone and CC Frozen Flame, there would still be an artistic bond between them. It’s hearsay on my part, of course, but I find that Radical Dreamers offers a very compelling “missing link” to tie together the CT Dreamstone and the CC Frozen Flame. Thus, it becomes essential to find an in-character expression for this bond. Allowing Dreamstone to act as the physical host of the essence of Lavos provides this expression with simplicity and elegance.
Going further if I must, Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame form a balance between the planet and Lavos; Dreamstone comes from the planet, and the Frozen Flame came from Lavos.
We agree that Dreamstone comes from the planet; or at least all the Dreamstone in the Chrono series does.
But we only partially agree that the Frozen Flame comes from Lavos. I want to draw an explicit distinction between Lavos’ power and the physical vessel in which this power is stored. The Frozen Flame may well personify the very balance you suggest, as it would consist of worldly Dreamstone and Lavos’ power simultaneously.
