Author Topic: Redesign  (Read 5987 times)

Lord J Esq

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2007, 01:42:19 am »
Ah, I forgot to add, I miss the image of Kid at the bottom of every page. Added a nice touch. And I remember how Zeppy and I got into it about something or other having to do with her being all alone down there. That was fun.

nightmare975

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2007, 01:44:10 am »
Say Ramsus, did you keep that porn code thingamjig, in case someone steals the code?

Ramsus

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2007, 07:31:18 am »
And I just now realized it is squished more than the old Chrono Compendium layout. (In that it leaves a lot of empty space on both left and ride sides.)

I hate it when websites do that.

...
 
Wait...what resolution is this optimized for? I'm running 1280 x 1024.

Seeing that many people were still using 640x480 back when I started using the Internet, I'm a bit conservative about these sorts of things. I design for about 1024x768 or so.

ZeaLitY and I were chatting about the new design, and he directed my comments here. So:

I still don't like those diagonal lines in the background. The font isn't very creative--what does it take to get amateurs to show a little love for something other than the default font?--and I'm not sure the "Chrono Compendium" logo is sufficiently prominent. The colors I actually like; if they were a shade or two lighter, that would make the black font easier to read. I like the banner design. You're right that the navigation console at the top is too small; the boldface makes it look squishy and illegibile. News update titles should be a different color than black; like (very) dark green (as we have in the forums), (very) dark red, or (very) dark orange.

Overall, not bad. It feels kind of cold. Kudos for not going "dark" like many communities are wont to do.

With the exception of images, only amateurs use anything but the standard fonts, because while it may seem "creative" to use some other fonts, it's far from predictable or reliable. Of those standard fonts, Times New Roman fit the bill for headers more than Georgia, Arial makes the best generic header font, and Verdana is the most readable body font. That's why you see professionals use them so much.

It's bad enough the same font renders differently on different platforms (or even on the same platform, say if you enable Cleartype on Windows), but completely different fonts? That quickly becomes a mess of picking lots of backup alternatives, and the end result is a complete lack of consistency, which is bad enough in itself, but it makes a lot of other stuff unpredictable as well.

Also, layouts aren't about the logo. They're about promoting content. Anything more prominent than what we have now would be a waste of bandwidth for us, because we actually have plenty of said content.

Other than that, I think you make some interesting points. I kind of slacked and figured I'd style header and body text at some later point, since this was a one-night project. This time I wanted to focus on getting things useable and working first. Also, if you ever paid attention to Mac OS X and Apple, you'd notice that each new OS release featured more and more subdued stripes until they went all out with the brushed metal look, so there's always room to tweak things.

Ramsus

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2007, 07:38:01 am »
Oh crap, I didn't even set the header tags to use Arial...

Say Ramsus, did you keep that porn code thingamjig, in case someone steals the code?

Yes.

Kyronea

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2007, 08:07:53 am »

Seeing that many people were still using 640x480 back when I started using the Internet, I'm a bit conservative about these sorts of things. I design for about 1024x768 or so.

Oh. Fair enough then.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2007, 08:46:55 am »
Ah, I forgot to add, I miss the image of Kid at the bottom of every page. Added a nice touch. And I remember how Zeppy and I got into it about something or other having to do with her being all alone down there. That was fun.
Ah, the good ol' days. Now it's career, career, career.

Hm, the new layout...a bit to, er, anime fansitey? The old layout was unique, and gave a nice sense of warmth and love. Now I just feel as if some ads will pop out of nowhere telling me to go buy FFXI gil. Hopefully I'll get used it though...

Wait, that's right! No Kid! Damn it! Damn you all! (I like the spell check though. Ill us it all the tme.)

Lord J Esq

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2007, 09:34:22 am »
With the exception of images, only amateurs use anything but the standard fonts, because while it may seem "creative" to use some other fonts, it's far from predictable or reliable. Of those standard fonts, Times New Roman fit the bill for headers more than Georgia, Arial makes the best generic header font, and Verdana is the most readable body font. That's why you see professionals use them so much.

I think you're mistaking popularity for quality. There's nothing wrong with any of those fonts, per se--they are tried and true classics--but by being overused they become a liability, and you also lose plenty of design options.

It's hilarious (in a sad way) how so many people throw up their arms and praise the supposed fact that designers have finally gotten their paws on the Internet and "civilized" it from the days when engineers and geeks did most of the layout work. Yet honestly these people have no friggin' clue what they are talking about. I work in the new media division of a media company, and it's amazing how deluded these folks are about what constitutes good design. As somebody who is not only a major user of electronic media, but also an (amateur) designer in his own right, I have a few words for these folks.

None of that is a jab at you. All it comes down to is whose definition of "professional" one uses.

Nowadays there are beautiful new alternatives, like Sylfaen and Trebuchet, that are the next best thing to universal (at least in the U.S.), as well as mre exotic fonts that could be used in a limited sense, like MingLiU for headlines or Orlando for large text, that would still work for the majority of users. And, of course, there are always the old-school alternatives to Times, Ariel, and the usual crowd, like Garamond and Helvetica, which are now pretty darn standard issue.

It's bad enough the same font renders differently on different platforms (or even on the same platform, say if you enable Cleartype on Windows), but completely different fonts? That quickly becomes a mess of picking lots of backup alternatives, and the end result is a complete lack of consistency, which is bad enough in itself, but it makes a lot of other stuff unpredictable as well.

Also, layouts aren't about the logo. They're about promoting content.

Disagree. Every successful brand has some kind of visual cue, like an icon or banner, to represent it. The closest we have is the "Chrono Compendium" title art; and you've made it less than a hundred pixels tall and two hundred wide. It should be more prominent.

Well, only in my opinion.


Edit: Geez...edited for bad spelling, bad tags, bad formatting, etc.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 09:45:17 am by Lord J esq »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2007, 09:49:54 am »
Speaking of the title logo, it's not clickable. Why is it not clickable?

MsBlack

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2007, 09:53:33 am »
Thanks for taking the time to put so much effort into the Compendium over the years, Rasmus, from hosting to design and moderation.

However, while we're sounding ungrateful and annoying, I have one suggestion for now: how about moving the navigation onto the same line as the big "Chrono Compendium" SMF title? I think then, the navigation would look more distinctive, and, to be honest, less of an afterthought. Alternatively, blending the links into the banner and moving them across to the right so that they don't obscure part of Kid may work, so long as the links still stand out. And making the banner a link, perhaps, but that's even more minor.

Edit: Grr... Lord J! I guess because News/Updates works the same, as regulars will know. But I agree it 'should' be a link.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2007, 09:55:47 am »
MsBlack makes a good point; don't take my feedback as sour grapes. I think I like the new design better than the old one. I appreciate your work, anyhow.

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2007, 09:58:47 am »
In reply to Josh's post about fonts:

Sorry, but the web has special requirements that limit your choices. Typically, you want to use fonts that are included with standard bare OS/browser installations and that you can match on other platforms. Plus, these fonts have to look good on the screen, with and without anti-aliasing and sub-pixel rendering. I don't use a limited set of fonts because they're higher quality, but because I know they're safe.

Nothing is worse than designing around something that most users won't even be able to appreciate. Granted, there are a few more fonts that have become common enough to use in recent years, but I don't have time to invest in finding which of those fonts are actually common enough to use now that demographics have changed and newer versions of Windows and IE are more common. Maybe when I actually find myself in an environment where I have the time and resources to play around with a lot of systems, I'll be able to add a few more fonts to my list, but for the time being, it's mostly Arial, Times New Roman, Georgia, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Courier New, Andale Mono, and a few others along with some matches for those listed, like Times and Helvetica.

Also, why even suggest Helvetica? On Windows that's just an alias for Arial, since most systems don't have the real thing.

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2007, 10:02:41 am »
Thanks for taking the time to put so much effort into the Compendium over the years, Rasmus, from hosting to design and moderation.

However, while we're sounding ungrateful and annoying, I have one suggestion for now: how about moving the navigation onto the same line as the big "Chrono Compendium" SMF title? I think then, the navigation would look more distinctive, and, to be honest, less of an afterthought. Alternatively, blending the links into the banner and moving them across to the right so that they don't obscure part of Kid may work, so long as the links still stand out. And making the banner a link, perhaps, but that's even more minor.

Edit: Grr... Lord J! I guess because News/Updates works the same, as regulars will know. But I agree it 'should' be a link.

That line only exists on the forums, and I intend to remove it. Everything under the logo is meant for content, and only content. I designed the navigation to be where it is from the beginning, and cramming it in above the content on every page would screw up the breating space of the content and create a distraction.

I might consider making the logo clickable to the News/Updates though.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 10:04:13 am by Ramsus »

MsBlack

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2007, 10:08:33 am »
You're right, I even knew that and I still said that. Guess it's because I pretty much stick to the forums, but wow, that was dumb. Anyways, I still think replacing that big link with a single-line navigation would probably look better, but if this comes down to a clash of preference, never mind.

Edit: Grr... Rasmus! Never mind this post I guess.

Sora

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2007, 11:43:31 am »
it looks good, but its so sad. the pale colors make me think about how you walk with your head down looking at the side-walk cause something really bad is on your mind, or you just lack the self-esteem to look up. and kid is on the logo all alone, wishing she was with serge, but knowing she cant be. the font used in the picture makes it seem as though shes frozen in time like that. i'm glad you got rid of those nasty flipping buttons though and just put text links.

Ramsus

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Re: Redesign
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2007, 09:00:06 pm »
There. The top now links to the main news page and the bottom to the about page. I also removed the giant link at the top of the forums, and I tweaked the header and subheader styles and a few other text styles.

As for the navigation links, I'll let Zeality decide if he wants to reorganize it into two rows of fewer links with bigger fonts, but I'm keeping them where they are.

Finally, I'll start tweaking the colors and backgrounds later, maybe some of the spacing too (breathing room, margins, padding, line-height, etc.). And if Josh can convince me that certain fonts have become safe for the web, I might throw in some more variation there too.

Next weekend I might start working on a site-wide search that works, but more on that later.

EDIT: I'd also like to note that if some vector editing bad-ass ever wanted to make a real logo for the site, then they're more than welcome to get together with Zeality and do it. I mean, if we actually had something to brand with, then I'd be a lot more willing to play that card...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 09:03:53 pm by Ramsus »