Evolution of Mystics

[ThatGuy]

Resurrecting very old post, I know...

I never bought that Lavos manipulated the planet's evolution, or created humans as they are when slaughtered. Ayla and co. were already around when Lavos fell. And yes, they were primitive, but 65-million years (I wish they hadn't written the game like that, that number is absurd) is a long time, so evolution taking place on its own during that time isn't a crazy theory. And keep in mind, had Ayla been born in 1000 or something, she probably would have been more like the people of 1000. (Some debate could be had to just how much like them, I realize, but it's at least pretty close).

It's more like Lavos is collecting the evolutionary information of the planet to form itself and carry on to... whatever purpose. (I have another post on this somewhere.)

Consider these two things:

First, if you access Lavos's inside via the Ocean Palace (probably on a plus game), the inside is the same. He's already got the humanoid form and so on, like Marle, etc., talk about. Now, this could be explained by the fact that humans exist at that point, and/or the fact that Lavos is in a way, like the Black Omen, transcending time. (One wonders if he "experiences" the 65-million years the way everything else does, or is it like a light particle that time slows down and stops for...)

Anyway.

Second, if Lavos could manipulate our DNA to control our evolution, why do it in such a way? He could just manipulate another Lavos's if he wants to produce better offspring. Why the planets of middlemen? But then, maybe he doesn't directly manipulate, but influences things some other way to kind of nudge evolution?

Hmm, I seem to be making points, but also offering potential counterpoints.

Except for the fact that humans were around before he was. So to me, Lucca's analogy of being like farm animals is more like he rounded us up, so to speak, or claimed our planet... rather than bred us to be as we are.

Although, I guess it's still possible there's a little of both in there.

So I guess I've talked myself in a bit of a circle here.

[Bouldegarde]

I have a theory about this.

Before Lavos arrived to Earth (or Gaia?) some fragments of him landed first on the planet and began to evolve population.

Those "Red Rocks" where small fragments of Lavos cuirass with probably some interesting properties, and maybe some "mini-frozen flames".

What do you think about this theory?

[ThatGuy]

Well, it's not bad if you make it a sort of 2001 space odyssey thing. But Lavos would have to have sent these things ahead of himself, because it's not like these things would break off and arrive so much earlier that people had time to evolve from monkey-types. (Unless he uses time gates again).

But it's really unnecessary, and maybe a bit counter to the story. Dreamstone was the shiny red rock, and it seems, at least to me, to be from the planet. Especially considering that, as we learn during the Zeal chapters, elemental magic is the natural stuff from the planet (that apparently dreamstone had soooomething to do with?), and that it was turned away from when the mighty power of Lavos was discovered, elevating Zeal to new heights, etc.

Although, it could very well be that a Lavos after killing a planet (or through some other means), sends/sent out these pieces akin to the frozen flame you mention, as both scouts and catalysts. Those that reach planets either start life, or prompt life to a higher level, and communicate with the Lavos of the galazy/universe that they've started something... thus the interstellar Lavos-es know where to go.

I don't know, I guess I like the idea that Lavos was entirely external to the planet and that we don't owe our existence to him, as opposed to being like the Greek gods who overthrew the Titans. But thinking about it, the theory does work.

[xcalibur]

65-million years (I wish they hadn't written the game like that, that number is absurd)

It is absurd, but the dates were chosen to allude to real world history as well as for storytelling purposes.

65 million BC: the dinosaurs were wiped out.
12000 BC: beginning of agriculture, also when the myth of Atlantis is set.
600 AD: around the rise of Islam, and very early medieval era. it's also 400 years before the present, long enough to be a different society, but short enough to directly influence the present.
1000 AD: high medieval era, a time of prosperity around the world
1999 AD: refers to the y2k apocalyptic sentiment which was popular when the game came out. far enough in the future so that not even the great-grandchildren of the people of 1000 AD would have to worry about Lavos. this underlines the selfless nature of the party's quest.
2300 AD: nothing too significant, except that it's well into a post-apocalyptic setting, but not so long that humans would be extinct.

65 million bc seems to break the scale, but it fits thematically. the analogies between Zeal and Atlantis and between the Reptites and Dinosaurs are unmistakeable.

[Razig]

Nice summary. I would add a few things:

12,000 BC roughly approximates to the "end" of the last ice age.

2300 AD was the name of a tabletop sci-fi RPG, set 300 years after a nuclear war nearly destroyed civilization. I kind of doubt this had any influence on the developers of Chrono Trigger, but it's a neat coincidence.

This one has to do with Chrono Cross rather than Chrono Trigger, but it's worth mentioning:

A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...

We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...

3,000,000 years ago is roughly the time frame when Australopithecus was becoming Homo habilis, a change which brought a rather substantial increase in cranial size. (However, I have to take this one with a grain of salt since the display in Chronopolis shows pre-Flame humans as being apelike while humans in CT were already recognizably human before Lavos even arrived on the planet. I'm not sure how the writers of CC could have missed that.)

[skylark]

This one has to do with Chrono Cross rather than Chrono Trigger, but it's worth mentioning:

A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...

We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...

3,000,000 years ago is roughly the time frame when Australopithecus was becoming Homo habilis, a change which brought a rather substantial increase in cranial size. (However, I have to take this one with a grain of salt since the display in Chronopolis shows pre-Flame humans as being apelike while humans in CT were already recognizably human before Lavos even arrived on the planet. I'm not sure how the writers of CC could have missed that.)

I'd just chalk it up to the differences in design choices for both games. Cross wanted to push for realism, while CT is clearly more anime.

I'm sure the Chrono Cross depiction would be more 'correct', but it wouldn't be marketable to have the nubile savage fanservice party member with a sloping forehead. *shrug*

[xcalibur]

Nice summary. I would add a few things:

12,000 BC roughly approximates to the "end" of the last ice age.

2300 AD was the name of a tabletop sci-fi RPG, set 300 years after a nuclear war nearly destroyed civilization. I kind of doubt this had any influence on the developers of Chrono Trigger, but it's a neat coincidence.

This one has to do with Chrono Cross rather than Chrono Trigger, but it's worth mentioning:

A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...

We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...

3,000,000 years ago is roughly the time frame when Australopithecus was becoming Homo habilis, a change which brought a rather substantial increase in cranial size. (However, I have to take this one with a grain of salt since the display in Chronopolis shows pre-Flame humans as being apelike while humans in CT were already recognizably human before Lavos even arrived on the planet. I'm not sure how the writers of CC could have missed that.)

those points are well worth mentioning, thanks.

[HadesKane]

I never bought that Lavos manipulated the planet's evolution, or created humans as they are when slaughtered.

Really all I have to say about this particular point is that the series plainly states to the contrary and clearly establishes this as canon...

As far as the why behind it all?

I've always taken it that Lavos is effectively the ultimate evolutionary creature / species in the universe... it finds a planet, burrows into it, and then manipulates/guides the DNA and evolutionary path of the creates to create both the most amount of variance AND to maximize the genetic potential of the species.  Why do it in such a way?  He uses the DNA of these creatures to evolve and improve himself, but if he can guide/manipulate the source of these creatures to reach their full, most powerful potential (or to speed it up, it would stand to reason there is an limit on his lifespan or the time such a creature can gestate), then he is mining a rich, powerful DNA source.  Why not just do that to his spawn?  Genetics teach us that genetic variation is key to success, he'd effectively be inbreeding if he just manipulated his own spawn.  By collecting and using the DNA of an entire planet, that's a ton of genetic variance.  Then repeats the cycle by sending spawn to other planets to manipulate, guide, and use/store the entire genetic make up of every living planet?  The impulse for genetic perfection and variation seems built into the very core of the concept of the creature.

And within the Chrono series, Humans as they are recognized DO owe their existence to Lavos.  That isn't to say that Humans wouldn't have eventually evolved into a similar form as they did later, but its also important to note that if you defeat Lavos at the earliest point in the timeline the ending of the game has everyone as Reptites, so it seemed that Humans "winning" the struggle to become the dominant life form on the planet ONLY happened because of Lavos AND the travelers defeating Azala.  Keep in mind, too, that Dinopolis is from a reality where either Lavos never fell or was defeated at this point.

[xcalibur]

in short, Lavos' race are the apex predators of the universe.

[ThatGuy]

^
More than that. Predators eat for food.

I still don't see why it's necessary for Lavos to guide the evolution of a planet. In fact, it seems more logical that he doesn't. Why else would he burrow in and collect it all the way he does? Why travel through interstellar space? It only makes sense that it's something he can't do himself, and that's why he shows up on our planet.

[xcalibur]

^
More than that. Predators eat for food.

I still don't see why it's necessary for Lavos to guide the evolution of a planet. In fact, it seems more logical that he doesn't. Why else would he burrow in and collect it all the way he does? Why travel through interstellar space? It only makes sense that it's something he can't do himself, and that's why he shows up on our planet.

Correct, predators consume other forms of life to support their own. The lower animals do this by directly feeding on organic material for nutrients and energy. We humans do this too, but in a more sophisticated way. Instead of consuming other lifeforms as we find them, we farm them. We grow crops, raise animals, and then harvest and slaughter them. We use our superior intelligence to manipulate lower forms of life, in order to suit our needs for nutrition, clothing, medicine, building material, and so on. In this way, humans are an apex predator.

Lavos, as a higher order of life, farms on a grander scale through more sophisticated means. He stimulates evolution on the host planet, diversifying and advancing native life forms, all so he can assimilate their DNA into his own. Just as farmers and ranchers alter plants and animals to suit their purposes, Lavos does the same with us. He uses the biosphere as a source of genetic diversity and strength, all for the advancement of Lavoskind. To that end, it makes perfect sense for him to colonize new planets. Only by absorbing the best qualities from completely divergent evolutionary paths can his race continue to grow stronger. In this way, Lavos is the apex predator of the universe, feeding on all other forms of life to grow stronger.

As an aside, the Lavos Core indicates that the human race is one of his most important sources for genetic sustenance, although not the only one.