Author Topic: English thread  (Read 3074 times)

Lord J Esq

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Re: English thread
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2007, 10:06:20 pm »
Oh I love it when Daniel gets onto the subject of language and inevitably drops another one of his K-Bombs.

ZeaLitY

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Re: English thread
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2007, 10:19:03 pm »
Hah, I embrace Alkinoos and other K names in Gilead.

On that line, something completely idiotic Ive (my apostrophe key just died?) seen is the use of virii instead of viruses.

ZeaLitY

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Re: English thread
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2007, 01:23:38 am »
Through, not 'thru', you damnable sons of bitches. And to hell with the singular they:

Quote
A person cannot help their birth.
Quote
A person might find themself in a fix.

No.

This is a puerile thread, but these offenses deserve the treatment.

And I'm going to go out here and declare that I support double s possessives for the sake of clarity. That is why the Compendium's prose features "Magus's", not "Magus'" when this character owns something. I find extreme reliance on context in some languages to be a failure to convey information in a timeless, clear manner. If what I read is correct, that's how it was before and there's little reason to suddenly confuse things because an extra s is not aesthetically or vocally pleasing.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 01:31:33 am by ZeaLitY »

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: English thread
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2007, 03:28:12 am »
I just had a vision in which Zeality goes around throwing bombs at McDonald signs which say "Drive Thru".

Lord J Esq

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Re: English thread
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2007, 04:55:09 am »
Through, not 'thru', you damnable sons of bitches. And to hell with the singular they:

Quote
A person cannot help their birth.
Quote
A person might find themself in a fix.

No.

This is a puerile thread, but these offenses deserve the treatment.

And I'm going to go out here and declare that I support double s possessives for the sake of clarity. That is why the Compendium's prose features "Magus's", not "Magus'" when this character owns something. I find extreme reliance on context in some languages to be a failure to convey information in a timeless, clear manner. If what I read is correct, that's how it was before and there's little reason to suddenly confuse things because an extra s is not aesthetically or vocally pleasing.

Well, I'll give you the "through" over "thru" argument, but I disagree with you on the other two points. Or, as Ramsus would put it, shit fuck fuck ass bitch shithead motherfucker fuck fuck.

Kyronea

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Re: English thread
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 12:54:02 pm »
Sorry, Zeality, but I heartily disagree on the double s possessive bit. I also disagree on the use of the singular they...it's the only gender neutral pronoun we have, and while it is typical plural, we might as well use it in the singular as well since one doesn't exist and it's helpful for various writings, like when you want to do your best to hide the gender of a person. (That comes in handy in a lot of stuff, like online Mafia games.)

ZeaLitY

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Re: English thread
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 03:31:37 pm »
Haha, so weak in will! Behold, One. "One may find one's predicament to be particularly difficult." One completely throws gender in the trashcan, avoids the his or her weightiness, and stifles the need for an awkward word like "themself".

Kyronea

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Re: English thread
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2007, 03:43:02 pm »
Haha, so weak in will! Behold, One. "One may find one's predicament to be particularly difficult." One completely throws gender in the trashcan, avoids the his or her weightiness, and stifles the need for an awkward word like "themself".

But doesn't that require a second-person viewpoint like in an essay? Can you really use that in a third-person omniscient viewpoint as seen in most books? If anything, it's even clunkier than they.

That said, I do like using it in essays.

Lord J Esq

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Re: English thread
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2007, 09:39:23 pm »
To put it simply, "one" does not function in all potential instances where a third-person singular pronoun might apply. For example, consider the sentence:

When an astronaut goes to the moon, one is advised to bring along golf clubs.

Now consider replacing "one is" with "they are," and this confusing sentence will make perfect sense.

This is because, as Kyronea mentioned, one in this sense is an indefinite pronoun and is synonymous with the second-person sense of you. When you use it to construct a gender-neutral sentence, you aren't actually speaking in the third-person. You can make this ambiguous, because English allows for some overlap between the second- and third-person, both in the singular and the plural, but grammatically it is impossible to use one as a full solution to the ungendered third-person singular pronoun problem. Consider why that is by comparing the actual meaning of these two sentences, which might be spoken to you by a friend just after you have committed an obvious crime:

The police officer is watching; do not hide what they already know.
The police officer is watching; do not hide what one already knows.

In the first sentence, "they" is third-person and refers to the police officer. It could be taken to mean: "You're caught. There is a police officer who saw you commit the crime."

In the second sentence, "one" is an indefinite pronoun and refers to any relevant, self-aware person in general, and to the listener of the sentence in particular--but not to the police officer specifically. It could be taken to mean: "You're caught. There is a police officer, and you know you committed a crime."

While similar in appearance, these are two completely different ideas, with the former resulting in an external conflict for the listener of the sentence (the police officer is an enforcer), and the latter resulting in an internal conflict (you know you have done wrong).

What it all comes down to is that you're wrong, Z! You'd have to bend the rules of English a lot harder to use "one" as a third-person singular pronoun than "they." See also the dictionary's usage note on they, which explains the legitimacy of (and historical precedent for) the singular they.

I personally use several conventional means to resolve the issue of gender in third-person singular pronouns. Depending on the particulars, I use "one"; I use "they"; I use "he and she" or "she and he"; I use, alternately, "he" and then later "she," or "she" and then later "he"; or I reconstruct the sentence to avoid the need for a third-person singular pronoun altogether.

But "they" is definitely the one among them that I am most comfortable with, and use most frequently. It is quick, and efficient, and easy to use. The only downside is that it is not very aesthetically appealing--and that's not a fact but an opinion open to debate.

ZeaLitY

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Re: English thread
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2007, 10:58:36 pm »
The fight will continue; I will still look down upon use of "their" when speaking of a person.

Lord J Esq

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Re: English thread
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2007, 12:49:56 am »
Yes, but on what grounds?

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: English thread
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 08:57:47 am »
Z, wasn't it you who expressed their distaste over "one" being used in that manner?

Or, as Ramsus would put it, shit fuck fuck ass bitch shithead motherfucker fuck fuck.
Haha, too true.
Guess what Ramsus' (Ramsus's? Ramsuss?) reply to this will be ;)

ZeaLitY

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Re: English thread
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2007, 03:27:10 pm »
No?

Anyway, their is so ugly! I've grown up with it plural and have preserved that sanctity by using one and his or her as Lord J has. It won't swim into my ken undetected.

Spot the poem reference in that last sentence.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: English thread
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2007, 08:18:39 am »
Z. Buddy. I'm damn, damn sure I'm right. And if you say otherwise, I'll- I'll...eBeatYouUp 2.0.

Ramsus

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Re: English thread
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2007, 09:45:02 am »
Z, wasn't it you who expressed their distaste over "one" being used in that manner?

Or, as Ramsus would put it, shit fuck fuck ass bitch shithead motherfucker fuck fuck.
Haha, too true.
Guess what Ramsus' (Ramsus's? Ramsuss?) reply to this will be ;)

Is that all anybody ever hears? What a bunch of girls.

Also, my real name ends with an s, and I've always used ~s's instead of ~s'.