Author Topic: The $%*! frustration thread  (Read 578012 times)

teaflower

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2490 on: March 26, 2009, 11:06:36 am »
Why not both?  Is that a rule by the teacher?  Or do you not want someone to do the same topic as you?
It is a rule. We can't do the same thing as another student, as it's easy to just copy off of them. But whatever. My paper shall be grand...

... GRAND I SAY!

Lord J Esq

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2491 on: March 26, 2009, 12:08:00 pm »
In a (usually) milder connotation of the word, it frustrates me when authors are so oblivious about detail that they'll almost never state which hand a character is using for a given activity. If it's something simple and fleeting, like saying hello and waving to a passerby on the street, then it isn't as important to know which hand they're using. But for anything significant, I want to be told explicitly. I don't like making an assumption about handedness, so the lack of information hinders my visualization. (Although most of the time I end up deciding that the author just didn't care enough to bother, so I get to pick and choose. The mooks end up being right-handed.)

I suspect that this happens most often with clueless right-handed authors who by virtue of their overwhelming majority in society have never given handedness much thought. I often see it in visual art as well, with the artist getting obvious details backwards or committing continuity errors.

MsBlack

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2492 on: March 26, 2009, 01:35:54 pm »
Or, worse still, when the author refers to a single hand as 'the hand', as if it should be taken as a given that it's the right one. (Obviously it won't be the left one, because authors invariably feel a need to state when it's the left hand as if it were some perverseness.)

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2493 on: March 26, 2009, 02:23:24 pm »
Or it might be that most authors utilize the statistical mode of humans in order to avoid Reinventing the Wheel and unnecessary Infodumps (both of which are traits that make for bad writing).

Writers are usually urged to only include that which is important to a story. The handedness of a character tends to be unimportant... except when it is important, which is when authors state it, and it tends to be important because it is outside of the statistical mode.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 02:56:17 pm by Thought »

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2494 on: March 26, 2009, 02:34:32 pm »
In a (usually) milder connotation of the word, it frustrates me when authors are so oblivious about detail that they'll almost never state which hand a character is using for a given activity. If it's something simple and fleeting, like saying hello and waving to a passerby on the street, then it isn't as important to know which hand they're using. But for anything significant, I want to be told explicitly. I don't like making an assumption about handedness, so the lack of information hinders my visualization. (Although most of the time I end up deciding that the author just didn't care enough to bother, so I get to pick and choose. The mooks end up being right-handed.)

I suspect that this happens most often with clueless right-handed authors who by virtue of their overwhelming majority in society have never given handedness much thought. I often see it in visual art as well, with the artist getting obvious details backwards or committing continuity errors.

Read Watchmen.

Lord J Esq

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2495 on: March 26, 2009, 03:35:43 pm »
Writers are usually urged to only include that which is important to a story. The handedness of a character tends to be unimportant... except when it is important, which is when authors state it, and it tends to be important because it is outside of the statistical mode.

You are speaking of relative importance--importance as perceived by the observer. On those terms, I would disagree with you entirely--which matters not a whit. However, it is hand-specificity's importance in absolute terms that I was getting at previously. Note that I wasn't referring to handedness per se; I was talking about the much simpler information of which hand a person is using to perform a given task. That information is significant very often, objectively, because the hands are the center of most human activity and usually pertain to any human action happening in a story. Most physical interaction with another person, or humanoid, requires knowing which hand they're using for a given action. More fundamentally, our understanding of our own position and motion requires knowing which hand we're using (for a given action). In real life we process this information without even thinking about it, taking it totally for granted, but imagine how much trouble we would be in if we didn't have it!

Now, there is a more general, tangentially related point: You mentioned the principle of relevance...of clean, crisp prose not cluttered by extraneous information. Most of the time, hand specification requires only a single four- or five-letter adjective in front of a noun that's already there. The rest of the time, it's a matter of adding one short phrase. From that small investment, a considerable gain can be realized. If the writer specifies which hand their character is using to hold a cup, the reader can and usually will put that information to immediate use. What's really interesting, though, and directly central to this little vignette, is that, by including this information, the reader may be able to see even more than what they are told, purely by association. Try it yourself:

He was holding a cup of tea in his hand.
He was holding a cup of tea in his left hand.

Functionally, these two sentences are identical. But they have two different impacts on the reader: The former is straightforward. Reading it is a passive experience. We understand that the character is holding a cup of tea. But the second sentence provokes our thoughts. In addition to providing us with the basic information of the cup in the left hand, very obviously the mention of the left hand raises the question of what the character's right hand is doing. Less obviously, the asymmetry of the description generates further details in the image.

In visualization, the brain takes all kinds of shortcuts: In a non-visual medium, like a book, have you ever known what a character's voice sounds like or face looks like, even without explicit description by the author? If so, have you noticed that, when you try and pin it down, you don't actually have all the details? The brain uses symbols and associations and partial constructions to illustrate only what it considers relevant; it never paints the entire picture into a literal image as we might see it in reality.

Owing to our evolutionary past, lateral information about animals and especially fellow humans is one of these things that people consistently notice. In fact, the impressiveness of how easily artists neglect to include such information in their writing and drawing is more likely a testament to the significance than insignificance of this information: Specifically, I propose it is so important that it predates our higher consciousness. Thus, while many people don't think to include it in their work, everyone reacts to it--whether they realize it or not. Asymmetry in the human form is very significant to us. You don't even need to take my word for it; you probably already know it. Anything that can appeal to our older brain structures is significant to the skillful writer, who can exploit our biases to describe scenes without stretching into the uncontroversially disadvantageous realm of verbosity and superfluity. (Yeah, yeah, I know....) Thus, the mere mention of a word like "left" or "right" adds a hefty spatial dimension into the author's description, which the reader's brain readily seizes upon to create even more imagery. Try it yourself with other sentence constructions that are hand-neutral and then hand-specific.

Lastly, although I am not implying that you would fail to make the distinction, nevertheless I want to point out the distinction between the quality of a piece of writing and its level of detail. They are independent variables. It's certainly possible for a writer to incorporate hand-specificity in a way that detracts from the quality of their work, but this is not inherently because they are being verbose or straying off-topic. Any such detraction is more likely due to deficiencies in the writer's skill or technique.

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2496 on: March 26, 2009, 04:01:54 pm »
The rest of the time, it's a matter of adding one short phrase. From that small investment, a considerable gain can be realized.

Quite right, but I think you might be undervaluing the potential of this. Consider your own example:

He was holding a cup of tea in his hand.
He was holding a cup of tea in his left hand.

Consider that in light of a straight up, no nonsense sentence:
He was holding a cup of tea.

That he was holding it in his hands is assumed (if he was holding it with his foot, that would be unusual enough to merit mention, for example). Adding "in his hand" emphasizes that he was holding tea. Adding "in his left hand" instead further stresses the fact that he was holding tea. Yes, it brings up all the issues you mentioned, but fundamentally it draws attention to itself. Which is all well and good, if it serves a purpose. If it does not serve a purpose, if the tea has no reason to be stressed, if the author doesn't want a reader to pause over this information, then it is useless and aught be discarded. But if it serves a purpose, if the tea has a reason to be stressed, if the author wants a reader to pause over this information, then by all means it should be included.

One might call it a verbose form of underlining words and phrases.

If so, have you noticed that, when you try and pin it down, you don't actually have all the details?

Yup. To note, that can be an intention trick of the author. By leaving a character ill defined in the text, it allows the reader to "fill in the holes," as it were. Most individuals will vaguely fill in the holes with those features that are most familiar to them, creating an image of a character that appears familiar and thus, trusted. When done properly, this can increase the empathy that the reader feels for that character without requiring additional text.

Thus, the mere mention of a word like "left" or "right" adds a hefty spatial dimension into the author's description, which the reader's brain readily seizes upon to create even more imagery.

I quite agree; however, the issue seems to be more of when it should be included (and in turn, why isn't it included more). You seem to want it mentioned more often, I want it mentioned only when necessary. This disagreement is all in a hypothetical world; in reality, we might agree perfectly on if it belongs in any given place.

Lastly, although I am not implying that you would fail to make the distinction, nevertheless I want to point out the distinction between the quality of a piece of writing and its level of detail.

Quite right again, however I would in turn point out that I never made a claim regarding quality of a piece. The closest I came was in regards to what writers are urged to do. Admittedly, one could take such guidelines that writers receive to be rules for desirable levels of quality, but in practice these tend to be rough crutches used for novice wordsmiths until they learn better. For example, Infodumping is considered bad, but Heinleining (a type of infodump) is considered good. Writers are urged to show, not tell, yet at times something isn't important enough to show and should be gotten out of the way with a quick tell. But the point being, if writers are urged in one direction, even if that direction isn’t the way a master of the craft would go, it is understandable that one would see if often in writing.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 04:38:54 pm by Thought »

Lord J Esq

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2497 on: March 26, 2009, 04:34:08 pm »
I've had "quite" enough of your bad forum tags, mister!

Anyhow: Our difference seems to be mainly stylistic, and I am not suggesting that everyone gets frustrated when an author is serially vague about hand-specificity. I stand by my hypothesis, however, that such information is innately useful and does produce a stronger mental image in the reader's mind. I also disagree that the strength of that piece of the image would inherently distract from the reader's focus on the whole, conjecturing instead that, absent some incompetence on the writer's part, the inclusion of hand-specific information would be assimilated into the whole with productive results. I suppose that from your point of view the key bit to recognize is that hands and their actions are not so heavily referenced, and that qualifying those instances with a "left" or "right" in most cases would not introduce any flaws or irrelevancies that were not already there.

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2498 on: March 26, 2009, 04:41:41 pm »
I've had "quite" enough of your bad forum tags, mister!

I have no idea what you are talking about!

<.<
>.>

That does seem to be a bad habit of mine. I'd have thought I'd have learned better by now.

So to get this thread back on track, let me say that a frustration of mine is how difficult it is for me to change a bad habit.

teaflower

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2499 on: March 26, 2009, 04:42:37 pm »
I'm kind of stuck in the middle with this debate. While handedness can be very useful, I don't use it much. Usually, when unspecified, I believe the character is doing something with his right, as the majority of people are right handed. When the character is described to be holding two objects, I usually envision the character holding the former object in his right and the latter in his left, unless otherwise specified.

However, handedness is very very important in many stories. In To Kill a Mockingbird, Tom should be found innocent because Mayella Ewell was beaten about the right side of her face, suggesting the person who did it lead with his left. Mr. Ewell is left handed, while Tom cannot use his left arm at all. Other times, it is simply too wordy. I know which hand my characters use predominantly (Zach = right, Alex = left, Aurora = right, Lovell = right, Mayim = right, Seren = ambidextrous but prefers right, Aderyn = same as Seren, Sinclair = ambidextrous but prefers left), but writing all that down can lead to many inconsistencies. Maybe I decided Alex is right handed half way through the story and write it down as such. Not good!

In the end, though, it's all about preference.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2500 on: March 26, 2009, 07:23:38 pm »
Maybe it's the mystical 'otherness', but being right-handed myself, I tend in writing to attribute left-handedness to my more heroic characters. If there's someone I'm writing that I find particularly interesting or exceptional, I would tend to give them the left, rather than the right. Due to its relative rareness, I suppose it underlines the character as standing out from the rest. And of course, my style isn't such that I'd draw particular attention to it (ie. I loathe those 'descriptive' paragraphs that give every single trait and attribute of a character in short.) If there's left-handedness involved, it'll not draw undue attention to itself, but exist as inherent in the figure.

Lord J Esq

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2501 on: March 26, 2009, 08:02:43 pm »
I'm sorry; I only read the part about left-handers as heroic figures. Daniel, why didn't you ever tell me you were a Man of Wisdom?

teaflower

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2502 on: March 29, 2009, 05:42:04 pm »
You know what bothers me? The concept of the one way street. It's not just about traffic (but that's part of it), but about giving and receiving things.

Let me lay out the basic concept of downtown Fitchburg. It is a mass of one way streets. Because someone decided it would be fun to make the business section of a bustling mill town composed mostly of streets you can only go one way down. And then situate the court there. UMASS Boston has a similar set up. You miss a turn, you have to go ALL THE WAY AROUND THE WHOLE CAMPUS to get back to where you want to be.

Second, on the whole giving and receiving thing. My dear older sister expects everyone to knock before entering her room, then ask if they can come in. Even me, even though I have stuff in there. Like my clothes. I'm not going to go to school in my pajamas! ... unless it is pajama day. Anyway, this rule doesn't apply to her. I'm sitting in here with the door cracked so I can hear people call me and stuff and let the cat in and out if she wants to, and my sister just barges in. She hops on my bed, then mocks me for the sounds I have play when I send/receive IMs and my choice of wallpaper (ooh, Sailor Saturn!; ooh, Aeris!; ooh, yuri! [I didn't even know what that was until she told me!]). When I was in the big room we used to share, she would walk in without knocking at all, causing some... embarrassment... from me... (getting into pajamas, holding cat; fortunately she covered all of my parts) This wasn't just when we were sharing the room. She would do this even when the room was mine. Her reasoning? Her stuff was in there.

However, now she continues to barge into my room. And I can't do the same to her. Because it's not nice. Even though my shit is in her room. It just makes me want to strangle her. Break her skinny little spine in half...

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2503 on: March 30, 2009, 12:14:02 am »
However, now she continues to barge into my room. And I can't do the same to her. Because it's not nice. Even though my shit is in her room. It just makes me want to strangle her. Break her skinny little spine in half...

i had the same problem with my buddy/neighbor barging into my HOME whenever he felt like it. every time he'd be all "what were you jerkin it?" and i'd be all "no but i coulda been" till i just started locking my door and stopped answering it. i told him there was a new rule. call before you come over. it didn't keep him from trying, but he knew if he came over and the door was locked, he had to call. and even then, if i heard him touch that door at all, i'd let the phone just ring and ring.

cause fuck em. if they don't show you respect, they don't deserve respect. i'd reccomend getting your clothes out of her room if she continues the same behavior, and if you can't, just go in. all you have to do is shout the words "GOLDEN RULE" every time, which can be used doubly as a warning and a justification.

just a suggestion. good luck with that!

idioticidioms

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2504 on: March 30, 2009, 03:32:11 am »
How the entrance of a single female into my life cane completely flip it upside down and render me into a quivering mess of weaknesses and insecurities, as I allow her complete access to my heart. Seriously, was doing just fine and dandy, going strong and now I find so many things to worry about, the oddest insecurities have been rising up to slap me in the face. Insecurities such as, every time she's gone unexpectedly, I worry that I've done something that will make her leave me, when I know I haven't. Little instances where I know something logically, and yet these little worries, despite my logic, rise up in size and say, listen here, bitchboy, she's dumping your faggot ass and there's nothing you can do about it. Of course, this isn't the truth, but in the expanse of time it takes her to get back in contact with me, it's as if the very substance of the world is unraveling around me.

And as much as I complain about it, I love every minute of it because of the way she makes me feel when she is around. Am I masochistic son of a bitch or what.