Author Topic: Crono Foreshadowing  (Read 14397 times)

V_Translanka

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2008, 05:24:16 am »
When does it say Lavos is going to leave the planet though? From what he says it's still there in 1999...

Quote
Lavos continues to replicate......
like a giant parasite, he is consuming
our world.

Forced to live here, I continued to
conduct research on Lavos.

Quote
Lavos is an enormous parasite that nests in
the planet itself.

I have continued the observation and study of
Lavos here.

Dark Serge

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2008, 09:27:35 pm »
On top of that, those Poyozo dolls didn't go to Death Peak before they went to save Crono.

V_Translanka

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2008, 06:23:19 am »
On top of that, those Poyozo dolls didn't go to Death Peak before they went to save Crono.

On top of...what? What is this comment apropos to??

dankun

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2008, 03:25:33 am »
When does it say Lavos is going to leave the planet though? From what he says it's still there in 1999...

I said that the matter is up to interpretation, and forever will be until we get an answer from another canonical source (i.e. another Chrono game). Read it again. Make sure to pay attention to the emphasized words.

In both versions, he compares Lavos to a giant parasite that "continues to 'replicate'", as per what a virus actually does. This implies (to me, at least) that Lavos is indeed somewhat of a 'parasite' or 'virus', in that it acts in very similar ways to a hostile organism. So perhaps he didn't leave the planet after all... and just spawned itself into three separate organisms.

I only said that he left the planet, because it would actually seem like the most sensible thing for him to do. After all, careful analysis of both versions do not necessitate for him to be there at that particular moment (as he could have conducted all of his research prior to the time when the party climbs Death Peak)

On top of that, those Poyozo dolls didn't go to Death Peak before they went to save Crono.

Says who? Only you and your complete lack of imagination; who can't begin to realize that just because something isn't spelled out for you loud and clear, doesn't make something any less true.

Quote from: Belthasar (NA Version)
Enough
The time has come for you to
attempt «Death Peak.» It's the only
chance you have of reviving your
friend.

The last program I've implanted in
this creature's memory banks will
help you up the mountain.
Stand back.

Quote from: Basch (RT Version)
Yes, it should be fine.
It seems the time has come when "Death
Mountain" will accept you.
It's the last chance to make your precious
companion come back to life.

The truly final programs I input into this
object are support to guide you to that
mountain!   

Stand back a little.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 03:39:43 am by dankun »

V_Translanka

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2008, 07:18:39 am »
Comparisons to a parasite does not make Lavos a parasite. Whatever Lavos is, it's beyond normal comparisons anyways...If it's said in-game that it's still there, as it is, then why assume that it is not? Occam's razor!

Also, those last quotes make it sound like the Poyozo dolls were in fact a part of the Nu or something...I forget, but doesn't the Nu go into the room where the Epoch is originally and then the Poyozo come out and then the Nu follows? Or does the Nu only open the door and the Poyozo enter? I don't remember if there was enough room for both the Nu sprite to stand there and the Poyozo to enter or not...If the Nu exits, Poyozo enter, then Nu follows after, that would almost suggest also that the Poyozo came from within the Nu itself somehow (where else in that room would they have come from, right?)...hmmm...

radicalblues

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2008, 02:46:39 pm »
I'd like to address a few things,

1. Multiple people in the topic complained about Janus predicted (felt the Black Wind around Crono or the party) a death, but not being able to predict the Ocean Palace disaster. This is completely off. Janus and Schala were sick worried about feeling the Black Wind, and so Schala wanted to avoid at all costs to summon Lavos.

2. Belthasar's prophetic abilities are out of record, it's something much greater than the Black Wind. While the Black Wind seems to give me a reading of "bad energy" or "death chill" or "bad presentiment", Belthasar's prophecy is exact. By Chrono Cross Belthasar called himself the Prophet of Time, we never saw anyone else call him that before. I think speculation is great but it really could be anything: the Nu, contact with the Planet, contact with Lavos, the Black Wind, or any mixture or relation of any.

3. Lavos reigns from IN the planet, that's all that is really said. "Atop Death Peak" is Woosley's invention. Lavos could nest inside the planet NOWHERE near Death Peak. But probably close, since the Black Omen is pretty close to Death Peak in 2300 AD, and his spawns are in Death Peak, after all.

4. Now, here's what you're forgetting, Mother Brain is the one who talks about Lavos leaving the planet:

Quote
[Mother Brain]
   Listen well, humans.
   
   Lavos's children will one day have to
   leave to seek new planets, and prey.

Quote
[Mother Brain]
   'LiSTEN, foolish fragile defective living
   creatures......

   Lavos's children WILL LIKELY return to
   space soon.
   Seeking new PREY, new planets......

Yup, she's talking about Lavos children only, as if not minding Lavos at all, as if Lavos had already left the Planet. So:

a) Either Belthasar didn't knew/was delirating/didn't care/didn't have time to check if Lavos had already left the Planet when you can first talk to him, or when he was writing his shiny notes that declared that Lavos nests IN the Planet.

b) Lavos left the Planet in 2300 AD somewhere during the game (anytime since when you leave 2300 AD till when you visit Mother Brain), this would be possible with no crater or other evidence if he came out from the ground under the sea, and not on a continent. So, Lavos sufraced, went WHEEE I R A ROCKET, and its spawns will LIIIIIIIIKEEELYY do the same.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 02:48:48 pm by radicalblues »

V_Translanka

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2008, 06:08:24 pm »
Quote
Yup, she's talking about Lavos children only, as if not minding Lavos at all, as if Lavos had already left the Planet.

Pure speculation! Just because someone fails to mention something else that doesn't mean that it's no longer around. I mean, that's like saying, "The kids are probably gonna leave the house soon." and then automatically assuming that means that the parents have already left...What kind of sense does coming to such a conclusion like that make and what folly led you down such a ridiculous path? >_>

One thing, though...if Lavos left the PD at ANY point, that would mean that Crono & Co. would not be able to fight it whenever it is that they do...So if you think that Lavos is GOING to leave, I could believe that (although that Mother Brain quote seems to suggest that Lavos is stickin around, actually)...but in 2300AD Lavos is still there.

Thought

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2008, 06:41:09 pm »
One thing, though...if Lavos left the PD at ANY point, that would mean that Crono & Co. would not be able to fight it whenever it is that they do...

Unless Lavos was never in a PD to begin with. That theory solves a lot of problems, but it raises a few other questions as well.

But aye, if you shake Lavos and turn him over, "all signs point" to him still being on the planet.

radicalblues

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2008, 01:16:03 am »
Oh yeah, Mother Brain, the smartest Artifical Inteligence in the story of the Planet, just casually decided not to mention the cause of the Apocalypse which it's working to overcome, and just randomly talked about its children, who had done nothing till the moment, just because it felt like it (°< ridiculous my arse, my folly mate! I never stated this as a truth, but in-game text denotes it as a well baised POSSIBILITY. That's why I said "as if".

So calm down, we're ALL just throwing out theories, after all. I'm not twisting the text to fit my theories either, actually I believe Lavos didn't left the Planet, yet at least. Some people here say maybe it died, it divided into 3 spawns, it will rest at his pocket dimension inside the earth forever, etc. All those are valid theories, since there isn't an official truth. I do agree with the Pocket Dimension one making the most sense.

If you wanna hear crazy out of nowhere folly, I always had the idea that the Death Peak itself was Lavos' big shell after having a nice planetary lunch :P or well, at least its shell covered by earth.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 04:18:24 am by radicalblues »

9900giljerky

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2008, 07:10:43 am »
Q: What happened to the pendant that Crono was holding on to, during the clone exchange? Did they put it on the clone, before the gate closed?

A: It doesn’t matter, and this is why- If they did, then it would’ve been sent to the DBT, along with the events between Crono ever dying (up to Death Peak). If they didn’t, then the pendant that Marle was holding on to (because of Crono’s death) would’ve been sent to the DBT, along with the events between Crono ever dying (up to Death Peak). Either way, there’s no need for the Time Egg or Pryozo Dolls, since the party from PD-1 would have been ‘warped’ to Death Peak, right before Crono committed martyrdom. This makes sense, since there’s no point in trying to resurrect a clone. That means Gaspar never really gives them the Time Egg. Maybe Belthasar knew that Gaspar would give Crono & Company the Time Egg, if any problems arisen. Maybe Belthasar made the Pryozo Dolls to preserve the Time Egg for another purpose.  8)

Thought

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2008, 10:35:07 am »
Oh yeah, Mother Brain, the smartest Artifical Inteligence in the story of the Planet, just casually decided not to mention the cause of the Apocalypse which it's working to overcome, and just randomly talked about its children, who had done nothing till the moment, just because it felt like it...

Since when did Mother Brain say that she was "working to overcome" Lavos (or the apocalypse; you weren't clear on which)? In the NA translation she is trying to preserve Lavos and its spawn, while in the retranslation she is largely ignoring them both, concerned only with their effect on humanity (which she is working against; the entire "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" bit).

Considering that the Lavos Spawn were apparently the entire reason for the Apocalypse, even if they hadn't done much themselves (and they were still feeding off the planet, so that is doing a large something), it makes sense that when one is talking about the fall of humanity that one would talk about the reason for that fall. As for not mentioning Lavos, meh, that is like talking about the Fall of Rome and not talking about Fritigern. ;)

Also, there is no indication that Mother Brain was "the smartest Artificial Intelligence in the story of the Planet." Indeed, I'd argue that Robo, Doreen/the Pendant, the Pryozo Dolls, the Epoch, the Time Egg, and even the Nu that Belthasar programmed all are contenders for "the smartest Artificial Intelligence" in known Chrono-History.

Q: What happened to the pendant that Crono was holding on to, during the clone exchange? Did they put it on the clone, before the gate closed?

Maybe, but the implication is that Crono didn't necessarily have the pendant at that point, so the question might be based on a false premise. Lavos vaporized him but after the Ocean Palace Incident the pendant was clinging to Marle and the party. Apparently it was just in the party's Bag of Holding along with all the other regular and key items.

9900giljerky

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2008, 01:22:04 am »
Q: What happened to the pendant that Crono was holding on to, during the clone exchange? Did they put it on the clone, before the gate closed?

Maybe, but the implication is that Crono didn't necessarily have the pendant at that point, so the question might be based on a false premise. Lavos vaporized him but after the Ocean Palace Incident the pendant was clinging to Marle and the party. Apparently it was just in the party's Bag of Holding along with all the other regular and key items.

The game script reads:

Quote
ELDER: Oh, this must be yours.

Marle: My... pendant.
   The one Crono held for me.


Lucca: Marle's pendant...
   ...the one that Crono kept for her.


Robo: The pendant from
   Crono's pocket.
   It's Marle's, right?

Frog: 'Tis the pendant Crono
   kept.


Ayla: Look!
   Pendant that Crono had!

ELDER: Young lady, I found it on your
   shoulder, almost as if it were
   guarding you.


ELDER: It was at your side, like a
   guardian...

And, after refreshing my memory, I withdraw my conclusion that the pendants exchange in the first place. This is a quote from the events on Death Peak, right before the portal opens:

Quote
[Party]
   The pendant's reacting!

   It, it shattered!!

That means the party recieves the pendant, of which Crono was holding on to, when they rescued him.

radicalblues

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2008, 02:39:08 am »
Quote
Since when did Mother Brain say that she was "working to overcome" Lavos (or the apocalypse; you weren't clear on which)?

Apocalypse = end of the Planet
Mother Brain = building a new order of steel on the Planet

Indeed for that she(it?) had to get rid of humans, which was Geno(ci)Dome's purpose.

Mother Brain never wanted to preserve the Lavos Spawns, I don't know why you take that as canon... what she said--

Quote
Lavos's children WILL LIKELY return to
   space soon.
   Seeking new PREY, new planets......

   This planet WILL recoVER.
   If only humans weren't here......

   And the new world of we robots WILL be
   constructed.
   A country of iron...... a utopia with neither
   hatred nor sorrow.

   We are the new "species" that WILL take the
   place of humans.
.

Denotes that
a) She wanted Lavos's spawns to leave the planet, like they were a threat.
b) She apparently wasn't worried about Lavos, maybe because Lavos had already "finished the work", but the spawns were young and hungry. There IS a reason why she mentioned the spawns and not Lavos itself, but we don't know it. I don't think it's just random rambling from the script writer.
c) It wanted to create a new civilization for the world to continue, only without humans.

V_Translanka

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2008, 03:41:24 am »
We also know, regardless of intelligence or intent, that the Mother Brain was INSANE, though...

For all we know Lavos could let the planet recover and then just repeat the process and create offspring later on as well...

Thought

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Re: Crono Foreshadowing
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2008, 11:42:38 am »
I think I must be missing a point you're trying to make, Jerky.

First, you'll note that the game script only says that the Crono held the pendant for Marle. When did this occur? Well, we know it happened when they first met and after the telepod incident. Those game quotes would still be accurate statements, then, even if Crono gave it back after Marle returned from the middle ages and he didn't have it when he died.

This doesn't preclude the possibility that Crono still had it, but it doesn't necessitate it either. In short, those quotes you provide prove nothing that was debated; rather, they only show that at one time Crono indeed had Marle's pendant.

If we look at the matter from a writer's perspective, it is actually rather important at that point for the party to identify which pendant it was. Marle's pendant was the exact same as Schala's, at that point, so by identifying the pendant as the one Crono had makes it clear that the pendant is Marle's and not Schala's. If the characters had just said "the Pendant" or "Marle's pendant," it wouldn't have actually been clear whose pendant it really was.

It would seem that the problem with Crono having the pendant when he died was, well, he vaporized. Everything else he had was lost (though the pendant is special enough it might have avoided this).

Even assuming he did have the pendant, consider the following chain of events: it survives his vaporization, Marle and Menagerie "find" it (or it finds them), they travel in time, get the Time Egg, climb Death Peak, they travel back to Crono's death with time frozen, they save Crono, travel back to the future and... they now have two pendants. Since time was frozen, the timeline had no chance to be replaced, the extra pendant had no chance to be shunted to the DBT (as per Time Bastard), and the extra pendant traveled through time so it now has Time Traveler Immunity (specifically, the "new timeline" pendant gains this, while the "old timeline" pendant already had it and would have gained it again in the same instance of time travel anywho) and can't be shunted to the DBT (since TTI is protecting its appearance). Matter has essentially been created, Crono and Co apparently ignore the extra pendant, the universe implodes, and fin.

But perhaps I am misunderstanding Time Bastard or TTI.

However, you do bring up a very interesting bit of information regarding the pendant. It had to activate the Time Egg, it seems… sort of like how Masa and Mune had to activate the Time Egg in CC to save Kid. I think that deserves an update in the Pendant and the Telepod article.

Quote
Since when did Mother Brain say that she was "working to overcome" Lavos (or the apocalypse; you weren't clear on which)?

Apocalypse = end of the Planet
Mother Brain = building a new order of steel on the Planet

Indeed for that she(it?) had to get rid of humans, which was Geno(ci)Dome's purpose.

I'm not sure if I am following you (or if you are even following yourself). It looks like you are saying the Mother brain is working to overcome the apocalypse because she wants to save the planet so an Age of Steel can begin. For this to happen, she needs to wipe out humans (hence, Geno Dome). Is that what you are trying to say?

If so... wha?

The apocalypse is why humans are dying out. Mother Brain wants humans dead, therefore she'd see the apocalypse as a good thing, and therefore wouldn't be working to overcome it at all (because, now, the humans are dead). Remember, the apocalypse doesn't mean the end of the planet. It means the end of human civilization and it marks the start of the end for the Entity, but while the Entity is the Planet, the planet wont go all Alderaan on us once the Entity is dead. The planet will still exist, robots can still thrive there, but life (at least, natural life) couldn't.

It looks like you are making your point by contradicting yourself. Thus, I am confused.

Mother Brain never wanted to preserve the Lavos Spawns, I don't know why you take that as canon...

You might notice I specifically said that MB wanted to preserve the Lavos Spawn in the North American Translation, which comes from this:

Quote from:  Mother Brain
   Lavos's children will one day have to
   leave to seek new planets, and prey.
   
   This world COULD sustain them...if
   humans were not around...

Mostly the interpretation that Mother Brain wants to protect the Lavos spawn is from juxtapositioning. Lavos' children will leave, but they don't have to if humans weren't around, she wants to kill all humans (possibly by using poisonous gasses to poison their asses).

However, I also followed that up with a comment regarding the retranslation (as the NA indication that she wants to protect Lavos' spawn appears to be a Wooleyism). You already quoted from the retranslation, so I wont do so myself. But you might notice that she mentions Lavos' children only in passing and even at that she's guessing at what they'll do. Barely a footnote in her entire speech.

However, to note, "return" is a curious word to use there. Lavos' children had never been in space before, or so it is largely assumed (since it spawned on earth), so how can they "return" to someplace they've never been to before?

Denotes that
a) She wanted Lavos's spawns to leave the planet, like they were a threat.
b) She apparently wasn't worried about Lavos, maybe because Lavos had already "finished the work", but the spawns were young and hungry. There IS a reason why she mentioned the spawns and not Lavos itself, but we don't know it. I don't think it's just random rambling from the script writer.
c) It wanted to create a new civilization for the world to continue, only without humans.

Nope, that denotes that
a) She thought Lavos's spawn would leave the planet (she didn't know, she was guessing, estimating, predicting).
b) She doesn't address Lavos and barely addresses his spawn, and only then in stating that they'll probably be leaving. Thus the implication is that Lavos itself wont "LIKELY return to space soon. Seeking new PREY, new planets..." As Lavos isn't included in the action of the sentence, he can't be included in the subject of the sentence.

As for c), yup, she wanted the humans dead and a utopia of metal.

However, it is curious that "the planet will recover" and "if only humans weren't here" is separated by a period, not a comma. Therefore, human continued existence is not actually preventing the planet from recovering (as is sometimes interpreted). Rather, we must find a different "then" to that If/Then statement. Regardless, the sentence construction indicates that the planet will recover regardless. Mother Brain apparently isn't terribly concerned with that either.