Further Character Discussion

[maggiekarp]

Ah, I don't think I ever posted it here, but a while back I had the folks at another forum decide which Cross characters should stay or go if there was a remake.

o=KEEP, x=CUT, -=optional?
Serge, Kid, and Magil stay for certain.

Doc: x
Draggy: xxx o
Fargo: oooooo
Funguy: xxxxxx
Glenn: ooooooo
Guile:
Greco:
Grobyc:
Harle: oooooo
Irenes: o -
Janice: xx
Karsh: x ooooo
Korcha: xx
Leah: x o
Leena: oo
Luccia: ooo x
Macha: xx
Marcy: oo -
Mel: xx
Miki: x oo
Mojo: xxx o
NeoFio: xxxx
Nikki: x oo
Norris: ooooooo
Orcha: xx
Orlha: o x
Pierre: o x
Pip: xx
Poshul: xxx
Radius: oo
Razzly: xxxx o
Riddel: oooo
Skelly: xx
Sneff: xx
Sprigg: ooo x
Starky: oo xx
Steena: o x
Turnip: xxx
Van: o xx
Viper: oo
Zappa: ooo
Zoah: o xx -


Kept (unanimous)
Fargo
Glenn
Harle
Leena
Norris
Radius
Riddel
Viper
Zappa
(Certain side characters such as Garai and Dario were also suggested, but I took that as a "make them playable" request at first and could not count them in)

Kept (majority rule)
Irenes
Karsh
Luccia
Marcy
Miki
Nikki
Sprigg

It wasn't a proper poll though, more a thread of right-in votes and opinions. For example, a lot of people suggested Karsh, but only if they found a way to "un-gay" him.

[CelestialPhantasm]

Very few RPGs go so high in character number though (isn't that Suikoden an SRPG? though I know the regular Suikoden games have a shitton of characters as well...)...

All the Suikodens have 108 characters.  As a general rule, though, there's a central core of a dozen or so who get all the character development--the others are just extras who may not even be truly playable (they set up shops in your headquarters, or run minigames or what have you).

The real problem when you have a game with a large cast is maintaining focus on the most important characters.  The first three Suikodens did this fairly well.  Chrono Cross, unfortunately, doesn't quite pull it off.

It's not an SRPG, rather a traditional one with five characters (four fighting and one support) in a party (with the hero almost always taking up a slot).  All 108 are playable except for one (and about 20 play support)

My favourite characters in Chrono Cross are well presented enough that they're some of my favorite video game characters of all time (Kid being number one).  Further focus wasn't necessary.  Sure, it may have been nice, and with only 25 characters, the game would have still retained that unique aspect of diversity; but I still don't like the idea of a "Fan's Cut" all too much.

chrono cross has something for me. there's just not enough of it. if there could be a third dimension to visit, with the story more spread out between dimensions, like one with chronopolis, one with dinopolis, and one with neither, and maybe less characters (only 25 to 35 or so ha) i'd LOVE the game and that'd be that.

Those are two unrelated things. I really doubt the creators said "Well, we'd like to make a third dimension, but we don't really have room thanks to all the characters".  Rather, that's an issue that would be central to the plot.  The idea is that Serge is dead in one world and alive in the other, therefore he's the missing piece in one of the worlds at any given time...

i don't see the point in a lot of things in chrono cross. especially the accents or crazy amount of characters. if somebody did a fan remake or a rom hack i'd love to see it. fewer playable characters means more story for the game, including former pcs who are now npcs who still get mentioned and then the playables wouldn't need phonetic accents, and could maybe develop over the course of the adventure.

Not only the accents are different, sometimes the characters say different things, like Nikki, who says on board the S.S. Invincible after the group has escaped "Easier than playing the bass".  It's fun, somewhat hidden details like that that help make Chrono Cross special.  In Suikoden Tierkreis, the optional characters you bring are almost always silent, no accents no nothing.

It wasn't a proper poll though, more a thread of right-in votes and opinions. For example, a lot of people suggested Karsh, but only if they found a way to "un-gay" him.

How is Karsh gay? or gayed?

[Mr Bekkler]

Those are two unrelated things. I really doubt the creators said "Well, we'd like to make a third dimension, but we don't really have room thanks to all the characters".  Rather, that's an issue that would be central to the plot.  The idea is that Serge is dead in one world and alive in the other, therefore he's the missing piece in one of the worlds at any given time...

Yes, those are two unrelated things, except that they are related in that they are both examples I gave of things I thought would make the game better, which was clearly stated. I understand the developers saw it differently. I played the game. My point is that in Trigger the methods of travel between worlds are slowly but constantly expanding. First you get sucked into a portal. Then you can travel between them. Then you end up in the End of Time as a 'home base'. Then you collect gates to different times that are connected to each other. Then you get a time machine, which does all that AND a bag of fast overworld travel potato chips. In Cross, you find out in the beginning, 'You died in this dimension. But you can still go home too.' and it doesn't really change from that for a majority of the game. It feels very Boolean. Get in boat, or walk on foot on land. The way I see it, the themes and mood of Chrono Cross can be summed up by the lyrics (if not the music) of one song.

'One way

or another

I'm gonna find ya,

I'm gonna getcha getcha getcha  etc.'

Not only the accents are different, sometimes the characters say different things, like Nikki, who says on board the S.S. Invincible after the group has escaped "Easier than playing the bass".  It's fun, somewhat hidden details like that that help make Chrono Cross special.  In Suikoden Tierkreis, the optional characters you bring are almost always silent, no accents no nothing.

That's not saying much for Suikoden Tierkreis then.
And as far as the details in Cross, I just think they shouldn't have been hidden. Except Greco. He has no place in the Chronoverse.  

[Licawolf]

*walks into a deserted street, into the long forgotten part of the forum...* "um...hello?"

This whole section of the forum is dead... I wish I would have been around for the ranks...I still hated Cross back then, anyway. It's interesting reading the opinion of the people, though. Um, are these sections of the forums still available for new users? giving our opinions about the characters and ranking them (even if the vote doesn't affect the character-rating feature anymore), or would it be considered necroposting? Or is there something new planned for this section? I mean they haven't been new posts in almost two years... 

[CelestialPhantasm]

Oh! Excuse my late reply. My very late reply.

Yes, those are two unrelated things, except that they are related in that they are both examples I gave of things I thought would make the game better, which was clearly stated. I understand the developers saw it differently. I played the game. My point is that in Trigger the methods of travel between worlds are slowly but constantly expanding. First you get sucked into a portal. Then you can travel between them. Then you end up in the End of Time as a 'home base'. Then you collect gates to different times that are connected to each other. Then you get a time machine, which does all that AND a bag of fast overworld travel potato chips. In Cross, you find out in the beginning, 'You died in this dimension. But you can still go home too.' and it doesn't really change from that for a majority of the game. It feels very Boolean. Get in boat, or walk on foot on land.

Except that one only gradually understands to what extent the two worlds are different. This larger division of material does not lead to a lack of complexity or diversity in the world of Chrono Cross. It sounds like you simply would like it to be more like Chrono Trigger.

The way I see it, the themes and mood of Chrono Cross can be summed up by the lyrics (if not the music) of one song.

'One way

or another

I'm gonna find ya,

I'm gonna getcha getcha getcha  etc.'

 

That's not saying much for Suikoden Tierkreis then.
And as far as the details in Cross, I just think they shouldn't have been hidden. Except Greco. He has no place in the Chronoverse.  

This hidden element is authentic. In our actual life, you cannot experience all of the possible variations. What you choose to do on any given day and with whom you choose to do it will lead to a unique experience that excludes countless others. Except that with a video game, you have the opportunity to replay it.

[Mr Bekkler]

Let's not get into "wanting the game to be more like Trigger". All I was saying was I get the appeal in the game, but it could have been done better. Imagine SEEING the time crash, actually experiencing whatever natural timelines/dimensions there were before AND after Belthasar's "accident"/"plan" instead of just after. A main character who reacts a little bit and finds out sooner who his father is by visiting a dimension where he is still dead but his father is still human, and is able to tell him key facts and help him develop as a person and as a character. Imagine being able to access optional different versions of a smaller cast, choose whichever dimension's variation you want on a team, etc. There was a lot of potential to use some really neat ideas and they did great for the time constraints but the time constraints are far more evident in Cross than Trigger. When they made Trigger they made the game that they WANTED to make, and it had universal appeal. When they made Cross it was company commissioned, they just didn't have the same kind of time, support, resources, disc space, you name it, to polish it up the same way before release. In that way, yes, I DO wish Cross was more like Trigger.

[CelestialPhantasm]

Let's not get into "wanting the game to be more like Trigger". All I was saying was I get the appeal in the game, but it could have been done better. Imagine SEEING the time crash, actually experiencing whatever natural timelines/dimensions there were before AND after Belthasar's "accident"/"plan" instead of just after. A main character who reacts a little bit and finds out sooner who his father is by visiting a dimension where he is still dead but his father is still human, and is able to tell him key facts and help him develop as a person and as a character. Imagine being able to access optional different versions of a smaller cast, choose whichever dimension's variation you want on a team, etc. There was a lot of potential to use some really neat ideas and they did great for the time constraints but the time constraints are far more evident in Cross than Trigger. When they made Trigger they made the game that they WANTED to make, and it had universal appeal. When they made Cross it was company commissioned, they just didn't have the same kind of time, support, resources, disc space, you name it, to polish it up the same way before release. In that way, yes, I DO wish Cross was more like Trigger.

While what you say of time constraints being evident in Cross is in some aspects (character development, plot exposition) true, this does probably not pertain to the overall plot and there is no evidence to believe that the exploration of more than two dimensions was/would ever have been planned. I find it cute that your ideas of unrealized possibilities lead you to criticize Chrono Cross, even though it is from the existing plot elements of Chrono Cross that you have these ideas. Of course there are infinite possibilities when one speaks of multiple dimensions, but traveling through two dimensions is already a very rich scenario in my opinion and adding further dimensions is dangerous in that it threatens to bog down the progression of the central plot. It would also be difficult to integrate as an essential plot element in contrast to the "Missing Piece"-principle of the two worlds.

[Mr Bekkler]

I don't think they ever would have planned more dimensions, but I do think that would have helped me enjoy the game.
The American tv show Fringe handles their alternate universe/timeline concepts really nicely with one character who is central to the plot, as there is always only one of him compared to the alternate versions of the other characters. Plot-wise, it's extremely similar, in fact I didn't even realize until typing this.

Would it have been difficult to integrate more dimensions and have them worthwhile to the plot? Yes, probably. And you're right, it is rich, and the "Missing Piece" concept is cool, as is the concept of Duality, which is continued from Trigger into Cross and given the chance to be explored more thoroughly. I do give Cross a hard time but I don't hate on it (except Greco).

[Manly Man]

How is Karsh gay? or gayed?

I believe it's that he has the combination of feathery, lilac hair- and, in my experience, I've met those who consider most shades of purple on men to be a sign of homosexuality- along with flamboyant, attention-grabbing clothes he wears, he would strike someone as a man with gay tendencies. His relationship with Dario does not help in the slightest, many interpreting his jealousy over Dario and Riddel getting together seem to be more of a possessiveness towards Dario than envy for his friend's love piled on top of a crush on Riddel himself. I, personally, believe Karsh to be bisexual rather than homosexual, but that would be out of living a large span of his life with military influences, surrounded by no one but other men. Many sailors and pirates were in a similar situation, having nobody but men available for great lengths of time to vent their sexual frustration with.

Also, should it be his wardrobe that is the primary reason for many to believe Karsh to be gay, judging by one's choice in clothes to determine one's sexuality based on the attention-grabbing qualities, nearly the entire cast would be homosexual to some degree.

[maggiekarp]

Well, making the entire cast bisexual would make it more like Trigger...

: Turnip! I... I have a confession...
: What is it, my love?
: I... I have a stamen!
: ...I am okay with this.