Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?

[stenir]

It may be baseless, but the way I've seen people posting and wording their posts, we will keep PD in place until we formulate the theory that solves it all. I guess it's along the lines that since we have something that answers a few problems, it's better to keep it in place until we find one that answers more or all of them (as opposed to having nothing, at which point nothing is answered). Lesser of two evils, I suppose.

[Thought]

Which gets back to my question (which FouCaptain answered): What paradoxes?

Or to put it another way, what does the PD Theory "solve"?

Just the Guardian boss? It was built before Lavos errupted (as I had noted a while ago), and given that Lavos only draws on creatures that the Team has person experience with, it might not be referencing time itself but rather the memories of those fighting it.

If that is all that the PD Theory is supposed to solve, then it is solved in other manners without such a problematic theory.

If we add in the curiosity of defeating Lavos' outershell in a later time period and then refacing Lavos in an earlier time period (at which point he doesn't have an active outer shell), then we are merely adding in a gameplay curiosity (along the lines of why there are less than 100 people in the world at any given time period). The game seems to assume that if one is fighting Lavos, one will continue fighting Lavos rather than running away to defeat the beasty all over again. It is only by purposely acting irrationally that this curiosity can ever be encountered. Like the lack of a sufficient human population, it is only a problem if we choose to make it a problem.

If this is what the PD theory is supposed to solve, it doesn't need solving.

So it returns to my original question: what does the PD Theory solve?

[ZealKnight]

obviously not this problem but we have seen it work in several other cases

[stenir]

From what I understand, the PD theory was created to explain the Lavos shell problem. Unfortunately, one of the things I've been thinking lately is whether or not we need to solve that in the first place. If "canon" is that Crono and company defeat Lavos in 12k BC, then the concluding thought process is that they fight from start to end in 12k BC, so there's no true reasoning for the "how the heck do you fight a shell in 1000 AD and it's not there anymore in 12k BC?". At that point, the question is answered as "You don't. Canon-wise Crono and company starts the fight in 12k BC and end it in 12k BC."

No time traveling involved, so you never face it at a different point in time. The PD theory was only there to answer that silly question. Unless there's something I missed. Unfortunately, that's the reason it's baseless. Wouldn't it also be like wondering how Ioka Village has stronger weapons than Truce even though it's 65,001,000 years in the past?

However, here's a branch-off question: If you always travel through some form of gate to get to Lavos (the Bucket, the Epoch, or the gate on the right telepod at the Millenial Fair), where are you going? Why does the gate on the right telepod take you to Lavos when all gates are linked to the End of Time (understandable until you make it to the End of Time, but not understandable once you've made it there)? Does Lavos exist in some weird place in time...or perhaps he lives in gates themselves (which also goes towards explaining why the gates close after defeating Lavos...and why the party is shoved back out after the final battle)?

[ZealKnight]

The pocket dimension was the answer to that, he kinda exists out side the normal flow. I always figured as there being a distortion there, much like angulus errea (something like that). You know it is to time what opassa beach is to space, But after you reach the End of Time Lavos has prevented your entry to protect himself. I want to say Lavos understands what Crono and company are and doesn't want to wipe out the earth but instead wants to wipe only those few. He is incredibly intelligent in my opinion also, so he is waiting for them at the Ocean Palace. He succeeds also, he kills Crono. Also you can't just rule something out as being non-canon. I know what you mean, in several cases I would agree, but not here I feel this could be explained with the pocket dimension.

[FouCapitan]

From what I understand the PD theory was created to explain the Lavos fight via the Black Omen.  You fight through the Omen in 12k BC, 600 AD, or 1000 AD, and you still wind up fighting Lavos in the same condition no matter which time period you encounter him in.  This can be repeated 3 times, all times resulting in the same fight.

I have a better explanation than the PD theory though.  I'll call it the Omen Gate theory.  When Zeal taps into the power of Lavos, calling upon his awakening, we see a blue circle expand beneath the Omen.  This is not Lavos awakening, this is a gate opening.  Upon her defeat a gate opens up beneath the Omen and transports the party to 1999 AD and Lavos' awakening.

The disintegration of the Omen is the physical transformation of the Omen into a gate, to fulfill Zeal's wishes of Lavos facing our heroes and destroying them.  Because the Omen is sacrificed to make the gate, it no longer exists in 1999 or any time after it makes the transformation into a gate to 1999.

So in a nutshell, you don't go into Lavos' theorized pocket dimension, the Omen becomes a gate to Lavos' emergence.


P.S.  Sorry if this post was rambling, I just downed a 40 of Mickey's in the spirit of St. Patrick's day, so I'm a bit tipsy as I explain this theory.  Woo!

[stenir]

So, you think Queen Zeal was thinking along the lines of "Now that you've gone and defeated the Black Omen and myself, let's see you face Lavos!" Then she sends them to the Day of Lavos with the last of her power before she dies. Sort of like a failsafe?

EDIT:

I'm watching the speed run of Chrono Trigger atm, and I just noticed something. It's quite a resemblance between the Guardian and the final battle with Lavos. Both have "bits", both "bits" regenerate, and there's a countdown for both (hmm....). This kind of makes me wonder whether Lavos is emulating the Guardian...or if the Guardian is emulating Lavos.

[ZealKnight]

From what I understand the PD theory was created to explain the Lavos fight via the Black Omen.  You fight through the Omen in 12k BC, 600 AD, or 1000 AD, and you still wind up fighting Lavos in the same condition no matter which time period you encounter him in.  This can be repeated 3 times, all times resulting in the same fight.

I have a better explanation than the PD theory though.  I'll call it the Omen Gate theory.  When Zeal taps into the power of Lavos, calling upon his awakening, we see a blue circle expand beneath the Omen.  This is not Lavos awakening, this is a gate opening.  Upon her defeat a gate opens up beneath the Omen and transports the party to 1999 AD and Lavos' awakening.

The disintegration of the Omen is the physical transformation of the Omen into a gate, to fulfill Zeal's wishes of Lavos facing our heroes and destroying them.  Because the Omen is sacrificed to make the gate, it no longer exists in 1999 or any time after it makes the transformation into a gate to 1999.

Well my only question is why would Lavos all of the sudden stop attacking? I mean with the pocket dimension he wasn't really in 1999AD and had no reason to keep on attacking. And if I remember correctly if you kill the shell in 1000AD you don't fight it in 600AD, 12000BC, or 2300AD so a Pocket dimension would be outside the normal flow of time and allow this fight to only happen once.

I'm watching the speed run of Chrono Trigger atm, and I just noticed something. It's quite a resemblance between the Guardian and the final battle with Lavos. Both have "bits", both "bits" regenerate, and there's a countdown for both (hmm....). This kind of makes me wonder whether Lavos is emulating the Guardian...or if the Guardian is emulating Lavos.

Well to me it seems like this is just something a lot games do to make a fight more difficult, but if anything Lavos is most likely the mimic. I'm thinking that since he lives outside the normal flow could he destroy the earth and still absorb the destroyed and prosperous future's DNA? Maybe he never intended to leave the planet? What if he was changing history to get more DNA, that of Mutants and Robots(haha I'm an idiot because I think robots have DNA, you know what I meant)? Is it possible that he could have been attacking different crucial time periods that if he were to wipe out the dominant race at the right time to allow another race to evolve to their fullest and take their DNA then wipe them out? He couldn't have done it with the Reptites because he sorta wipes them out at his landing, but what if it was his plan to make machines take over? I guess I'm kinda rambling, but you get my point...   I hope.

[Thought]

Well my only question is why would Lavos all of the sudden stop attacking? I mean with the pocket dimension he wasn't really in 1999AD and had no reason to keep on attacking. And if I remember correctly if you kill the shell in 1000AD you don't fight it in 600AD, 12000BC, or 2300AD so a Pocket dimension would be outside the normal flow of time and allow this fight to only happen once.

Problem there is that it is quite difficult to make an argument from this, as no sane individual would fight lavos, beat the outer shell, then time travel to the past (600AD) in hopes of fighting the outer shell all over again. One has to purposely attempt to test the limits of time in order to discover it, so it is difficult to know if this was intentional and part of Lavos, or if this was just a video game short cut (sort of like how there are no farms in the world; we aren't supposed to take that as evidence that society never got above hunter/gatherers).

[stenir]

Lavos altering the genetic pattern of evolution is understandable, as that's his goal: to take the best DNA of the world and let the rest rot to pieces. He's like the Borg of the Chronoverse.

Wow, that's a horrible analogy, but you guys get that picture.

If we were to run with a mixture of the PD theory and a DNA theory, you'd only be able to get away with saying Lavos is in a PD so that he could muck with many different worlds at the same time (or, if you really want to mess with the entire thought process, to say that the PD can access multiple time lines). That'd be the only real reason I could see getting away with a PD, but unfortunately there's no grounding for it from in-game evidence. The way I feel it's described, the Lavos race lands on a planet, one per planet, draws the best DNA genetic material from the world, and then destroys it as a by-product of giving birth to Lavos spawns. These spawns then do the same thing: during their birth they are sent off to more planets, and they, in turn, continue the cycle of DNA manipulation, destroying the planet they are in, and then their spawns moving on. If that's not correct, then by all means, correct me please.

I can understand Lavos mimicking genetic material (heck, if it's a boss, the DNA must be good enough for Lavos to absorb) in the shell battle. But, my thought is how can Lavos mimic the Guardian if it's not genetic? Perhaps there is some genetic material, but the Guardian itself is a programmed machine. That'd be like saying Lavos absorbed the DNA of Robo.

Perhaps the people of the 1900s in the Chronoverse knew of Lavos (quite possibly by that time frame they knew what was going on), and had studied him to a certain extant. With all that knowledge, they could have tried to fight fire with fire, knowing that at some point Lavos would erupt from within the planet. So, they built multiple Guardians (each with the respective Bits) in an attempt to create an army which would be capable of defending against Lavos.

And as far as how Lavos mimics the Guardian, perhaps it's not so much an actual alteration like the game shows it to be, but perhaps it's a jog to the memory. Like, if I'm fighting Lavos and he suddenly starts using techniques from the Guardian or even Yakra, I'm probably not going to see a big flashy image of either show up out of nowhere and get "absorbed" by Lavos. I'll probably be fighting him, then he'll use Yakra Needle after maybe a flash of light for a second (not an image), and when he uses Yakra Needle, I'll be like "Oh, I remember Yakra doing that!". We don't get to see what characters are thinking, so maybe the visual effect that we view on our screens is nothing more than a visual representation of the characters going, "Ah, I remember <boss> doing that!"

And to make things a bit more interesting while answering the question of how Lavos can perform the same attacks...well, he is altering the DNA of the world through manipulation so as to get the best possible DNA over the years...chances are a bit of the world is Lavos...ian (don't know what the best terminology would be). Lavos probably infused his DNA to give the world a jump start.

[ZealKnight]

Well my only question is why would Lavos all of the sudden stop attacking? I mean with the pocket dimension he wasn't really in 1999AD and had no reason to keep on attacking. And if I remember correctly if you kill the shell in 1000AD you don't fight it in 600AD, 12000BC, or 2300AD so a Pocket dimension would be outside the normal flow of time and allow this fight to only happen once.

Problem there is that it is quite difficult to make an argument from this, as no sane individual would fight lavos, beat the outer shell, then time travel to the past (600AD) in hopes of fighting the outer shell all over again. One has to purposely attempt to test the limits of time in order to discover it, so it is difficult to know if this was intentional and part of Lavos, or if this was just a video game short cut (sort of like how there are no farms in the world; we aren't supposed to take that as evidence that society never got above hunter/gatherers).

I understand that but I'd rather find a canon reason for it, even if it isn't necessary I try my best to avoid to claim things as a gaming device. It was be more sane, but really the only things I want to claim as that are like weapons. Why would the future depend on swords or crossbows? Swords maybe as a symbol of honor, many cultures still in fact do that, but a electrically charged one or a crossbow?

[stenir]

Maybe the best explanation is not "game mechanics messed up because programmers didn't have foresight".

What if we went off a mixture? Such as, we say there are certain things that game mechanics allow to happen because it's a game. But don't we tend to overlook things caused by game mechanics? In fact, even though I haven't played CC in a few years, doesn't the plotline include Crono defeating Lavos in 12k BC? As in, plotline wise, Crono fights Lavos in 12k BC during the Ocean Palace and defeats it, right?

If that's the case, then the whole point is moot. You don't get to run away from that fight, and you'd kill it and that would be it. No arriving at from a different point in time.

[ZealKnight]

I didn't even remember them mention the Ocean Palace? How could they? All they knew was of Zeal, and maybe it did or did not exist. For all we know the Black Omen was around.

[stenir]

Well, where is the information stated that brought about the conclusion that Crono defeated Lavos in 12,000 BC? IIRC it is stated somewhere in Chronopolis, correct? If so, then wouldn't we have to assume that it's meant to be Crono defeating Lavos the first time fighting it?

[Acacia Sgt]

If it's the time where he died and Zeal fell... no, considering it has to happen.