Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?

[chrono eric]

Well were trying to make it... not... a paradox. (loss of vocabulary there) So don't rule it out just yet, if it can explain paradoxes let it be, until we find a better solution, eric.

Well, if I remember correctly, wasn't the PD theory originally created primarily to explain this Guardian problem? If the PD theory is moot, then it can't be used to address this issue.

Whoops, just figured out that I missed about a page of argument before responding to this. Oh well, I don't feel like editing it now.

[stenir]

Okay, I take Zeality's Chronology chronology guide as what I go off of, and reading the one at gamefaqs (unless something has been changed), in Keystone T-2, it states the following chain of events for 12000 B.C.

Keystone T-2, of course, is what the "original" timeline of Chrono Cross was. So, we can basically say that if T-2 is where CC starts (barring Project Kid for now), we get this chain of events in 12k BC:

-The Ocean Palace rises as the Black Omen, commanded by a Lavos-appeasing
Queen Zeal.
-Crono's party travels to the End of Time to consult Gaspar about reviving
Crono.
-Crono's party comes in from 1000 A.D. to enter the Black Omen.
-Crono's party defeats Queen Zeal, who warps the party into the Mammon Machine.
-Crono's party defeats the Mammon Machine.
-Crono's party defeats Queen Zeal a second time.
-Queen Zeal awakens Lavos to battle the party.
-Crono's party battles Lavos and enters the shell.
-Crono's party defeats the first Lavos form.
-Lavos mutates into the best combination of collected DNA possible.
-Crono's party defeats Lavos's last form.
-The defeated Lavos presumably finds itself in the Darkness Beyond TIme and
begins merging with Schala, who came in from the Ocean Palace.
-Crono's party returns to 1000 A.D.
-Magus arrives to search for Schala.

For those that need to take a look-see at it in case you want to make certain I'm pulling from the right "dimension", you can find this guide at: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/196917/28014

Okay, so this forces me to modify my original thinking. So, it's not the first time Crono fights Lavos (because he dies and then everyone warps around doing things before finally bringing Crono back to life). However, T-2 never mentions going in and fighting and then coming back out to do it again in a different timeline. I think if we see the entire series as one coherent timeline as opposed to seeing Chrono Trigger here and Chrono Cross over there, we'd have a much easier time on our hands.

If we do that, and we go with some of the things I've been saying, we can use the following assumptions:

1.) The Guardian was modeled after extensive researching on Lavos. Perhaps the future of mankind thought emulating Lavos and having many Guardians might be able to stop Lavos when he would erupt. In addition, Lavos has been mucking with the genetic material of everything in the planet's history, so some of his abilities might have been transferred in the process. Therefore, other enemies are using their versions of abilities which stem from Lavos' genetic material, meaning they are the ones emulating Lavos, not Lavos emulating them. With Lavos about to erupt, if they accomplished enough research, the future might have been able to create a clone set of Lavos, i.e., the Guardian, and might have been planning to attack Lavos with hundreds or thousands of Guardians (with bits).

2.) If the entire Chronoverse is seen as a whole, both CT and CC together, and not as separates, then by stating that Crono defeats Lavos in 12,000 B.C., we find no need (barring game mechanics and people who make mountains out of molehills) to fight Lavos at different eras. Crono, in the T-2 dimension, begins, continues through, and finally ends the fight with Lavos, killing him in 12,000 B.C.

3.) Lavos exists within our timeline, and not a pocket dimension. Otherwise, when Crono defeats him, he would still erupt in 1999 A.D., causing the same problems, meaning nothing gets solved. If Lavos exists in our timeline, by defeating him, Crono has altered the timeline and therefore prevented the Day of Lavos.

These three assumptions clean up the PD theory problem nicely, in my opinion. The main problems with which the PD theory found its creation were: 1) How is the shell defeated in the past if you defeated it in the future (which of course is a game mechanic that in a living version of the story would not be a feasible idea and is nothing more than a programmer oversight); and 2) How does Lavos "emulate" the Guardian, which exists in 2300 A.D.?

The only question I have is this: We've basically said that each of the main dimensions (we agree there are multi-dimensions out there, but they don't ever touch, and the Chronoverse does not function on a "anything that can happen does" thought) has their own DBT. With the PD theory, we have two main problems that we don't if we nix the PD theory and use the above assumptions.

Problem A: If Lavos is in a separate dimension, then even destroying him won't have an effect. So far, we haven't ruled out DTI (Dimensional Traveler Immunity), meaning Lavos' appearance from the PD would still occur on Keystone. We know this can't be the case.

Problem B: If each dimension has it's own Darkness Beyond Time (DBT), and Lavos' PD, while a adjunct to the Keystone, still fucntions as a separate dimension, then wouldn't both the Keystone and the PD have their own separate DBTs? This would mean that Lavos could not merge with Schala (she fell from Keystone, Lavos from the PD), and that also can't be the case.

If there's no PD, Problem A doesn't occur, as he is part of the timeline and destroying him removes him from the Keystone from that point forward. Same goes for Problem B, as Lavos is in the Keystone timeline and therefore gets junked to the Keystone DBT, along with Schala.

I hope I'm getting this somewhat explainable.

[FouCapitan]

Well my only question is why would Lavos all of the sudden stop attacking? I mean with the pocket dimension he wasn't really in 1999AD and had no reason to keep on attacking. And if I remember correctly if you kill the shell in 1000AD you don't fight it in 600AD, 12000BC, or 2300AD so a Pocket dimension would be outside the normal flow of time and allow this fight to only happen once.

The flow of time in relation to the gate's destinations to 1999 AD is halted.  In lay terms, every time you leave 1999 AD and come back you arrive at the precise moment that you left.  To Crono and the gang they can spend hours or days after destroying the shell doing anything, but to Lavos, they destroyed his shell, walked to a gate and came right back.

Time conservation causes all gates to react in this manner, including the ones created by the Omen.

[ZealKnight]

I'm pretty sure thats not right Fou. If I remember correctly in the explanation according to the analysis articles the compendium currently holds, it says that you can only travel through years, thats what makes Lucca's red gate so special.

And stenir, I think I understand what you mean but you misunderstood me, which is my fault. I know I said outside the normal flow of time but I didn't mean a completely different dimension, I just ment it isn't in the NORMAL flow. Almost like he is constantly in a gate. That would prevent problem A. More over, isn't there only one DBT? Every dimension shares the same one right? I'm pretty sure Zeality explained this to me when I was extremely nubish. That would fix Problem B.

[FouCapitan]

I'm pretty sure thats not right Fou. If I remember correctly in the explanation according to the analysis articles the compendium currently holds, it says that you can only travel through years, thats what makes Lucca's red gate so special.

So what exactly are you saying is wrong about what I said?  I'm stating that in repeated trips through the Lavos gate, the time of entrance coincides with the last time of exit from that time period.  This prevents two problems from happening.

1.  The party doesn't come back to find themselves fighting Lavos from a previous sojourn into 1999.

2.  The party doesn't leave Lavos alone in 1999 long enough for him to proceed with destroying the planet before they come back to the time period again.

I was expanding this notion to state that the Omen Gate coincides with the bucket gate, in that you will never appear before the party leaves in a previous encounter, or after the bombardment of the surface from Lavos.

[ZealKnight]

What? I mean that if you kill his outer shell he can still attack the earth, but I could beat him and travel back to the end of time then do every side quest but with in that time what would Lavos be doing? Why would he just stop? You can't just travel to the second you left.

[Zephira]

Why can't you? There is nothing that tells us how much time passes between when Crono Co leaves an era, and when they return. If they spend a month in 600 AD, then travel to 1000 AD, has a month passed there to? Or has it only been a day, or a few hours?

[FouCapitan]

What? I mean that if you kill his outer shell he can still attack the earth, but I could beat him and travel back to the end of time then do every side quest but with in that time what would Lavos be doing? Why would he just stop? You can't just travel to the second you left.

Why can't you? There is nothing that tells us how much time passes between when Crono Co leaves an era, and when they return. If they spend a month in 600 AD, then travel to 1000 AD, has a month passed there to? Or has it only been a day, or a few hours?

Exactly what I was saying.  Because Lavos doesn't attack at all between visits it's apparent that there is little to no time difference between them.  In order to preserve the battle as a continuous chain of events and stop Lavos from initiating his destruction.

Robo did have the theory that some entity was controlling the gates, and perhaps this is one giant justification for that theory.  While trips between other gates such as 65mBC and 600AD had some apparent flow of time between visits, coinciding with relevant events for our protagonists to assist in, there was no flow of time between trips through the 1999AD gate.  This would support the idea that an entity was controlling the destinations of the gates quite precisely, and each gate was controlled in a unique manner that was beneficial to our heroes' cause.

[ZealKnight]

Relativistic Flow Principle

The rate of time in each time period should not be the same. Relativistic effects produced by changes in the earth and sun's velocity would result in minute time dilations. Motion and mass have effects on the speed of time. As a simple example, a ball bounced on a train takes longer to bounce to someone on the station platform than to someone on the train with it. Thus, each time period would have its own relative time rate, dependent on relativistic factors. This introduces a further complexity to the Time Error axiom. Time Gate apertures and Epoch destinations follow the natural flow of time in their era, but since the time rate of each time period is unique, there would be a discrepancy in the translation of both ends of a Gate into the future. For example, if Crono were to warp from 1000 AD to 400 years in the past, the time he spent in 600 AD is not necessarily the same as the time he was away from 1000 AD. Luckily, Crono could not return to 1000 AD before he left, so there is no worry about causality. For most time periods this discrepancy should be very small, perhaps on the order of seconds. However, 65 million BC might experience a significant time dilation.

That's what I'm referring to. the time difference between periods is a couple of minutes at most.

[FouCapitan]

Relativistic Flow Principle

The rate of time in each time period should not be the same. Relativistic effects produced by changes in the earth and sun's velocity would result in minute time dilations. Motion and mass have effects on the speed of time. As a simple example, a ball bounced on a train takes longer to bounce to someone on the station platform than to someone on the train with it. Thus, each time period would have its own relative time rate, dependent on relativistic factors. This introduces a further complexity to the Time Error axiom. Time Gate apertures and Epoch destinations follow the natural flow of time in their era, but since the time rate of each time period is unique, there would be a discrepancy in the translation of both ends of a Gate into the future. For example, if Crono were to warp from 1000 AD to 400 years in the past, the time he spent in 600 AD is not necessarily the same as the time he was away from 1000 AD. Luckily, Crono could not return to 1000 AD before he left, so there is no worry about causality. For most time periods this discrepancy should be very small, perhaps on the order of seconds. However, 65 million BC might experience a significant time dilation.

That's what I'm referring to. the time difference between periods is a couple of minutes at most.

That is a theory, not a fact.  The Compendium's articles cannot be taken as absolute in many cases, otherwise the thought process becomes stagnant.

[ZealKnight]

Hehe, What do I say now?

[Thought]

1.) The Guardian was modeled after extensive researching on Lavos. Perhaps the future of mankind thought emulating Lavos and having many Guardians might be able to stop Lavos when he would erupt.

There isn't much of an indication that humans of that time period were aware of Lavos (the only indicator being the record calls the Apocalypse "The Day of Lavos").

Such a stance has to assume a lot (people were aware of Lavos, having obtained this information in an unknown manner, were able to analyze Lavos is a likewise unknown manner, and actively attempted to create weapons to use for his eventual rise). It is much easier (and just as valid) to assume that the Guardian was created before the day of Lavos for security reasons that had nothing to do with Lavos. Same effect, but doesn't unnecessarily assume that humans of 1998 were aware of Lavos.

[xcalibur]

-   Also imitates the attacks and HP of the Dragon Tank, the Guardian, the Heckran, Zombor, Masa&Mune, Nizbel, Magus, Azala and the Black Tyrano, and Giga Gaia.

not sure if anyone else said this, but its possible that lavos somehow reads the minds and experiences of the party to some extent, and mimicks their previous big battles. that way, lavos could see the memory of the guardian battle even though it was in the ruined future.. and that would probably fit with the time theories.

that seems like the most straightforward answer to me.

[xcalibur]

by the way, this is sort of on a tangent, but i wanted to post this-

lavos uses time warps to different eras because each era corresponds to a certain powerful attack he can use.

ive figured them out-

65000000 BC - Grand Stone / Ultimate Physical Attack
12000 BC - Invading Light / Slow
600 AD - Evil Star / Reduces Party's HP By Half
1000 AD - Spell / Random Status
2300 AD - Dreamless / Ultimate Magic Attack

[ZealKnight]

1.) The Guardian was modeled after extensive researching on Lavos. Perhaps the future of mankind thought emulating Lavos and having many Guardians might be able to stop Lavos when he would erupt. In addition, Lavos has been mucking with the genetic material of everything in the planet's history, so some of his abilities might have been transferred in the process. Therefore, other enemies are using their versions of abilities which stem from Lavos' genetic material, meaning they are the ones emulating Lavos, not Lavos emulating them. With Lavos about to erupt, if they accomplished enough research, the future might have been able to create a clone set of Lavos, i.e., the Guardian, and might have been planning to attack Lavos with hundreds or thousands of Guardians (with bits).

2.) If the entire Chronoverse is seen as a whole, both CT and CC together, and not as separates, then by stating that Crono defeats Lavos in 12,000 B.C., we find no need (barring game mechanics and people who make mountains out of molehills) to fight Lavos at different eras. Crono, in the T-2 dimension, begins, continues through, and finally ends the fight with Lavos, killing him in 12,000 B.C.

3.) Lavos exists within our timeline, and not a pocket dimension. Otherwise, when Crono defeats him, he would still erupt in 1999 A.D., causing the same problems, meaning nothing gets solved. If Lavos exists in our timeline, by defeating him, Crono has altered the timeline and therefore prevented the Day of Lavos.

Umm.. What if we just say that the Guardian was built before the DoL. And he can regenerate his shell over a long period of time. Say 400 years at the least? Wouldn't that solve all the problems?

Problem A: If Lavos is in a separate dimension, then even destroying him won't have an effect. So far, we haven't ruled out DTI (Dimensional Traveler Immunity), meaning Lavos' appearance from the PD would still occur on Keystone. We know this can't be the case.

Problem B: If each dimension has it's own Darkness Beyond Time (DBT), and Lavos' PD, while a adjunct to the Keystone, still functions as a separate dimension, then wouldn't both the Keystone and the PD have their own separate DBTs? This would mean that Lavos could not merge with Schala (she fell from Keystone, Lavos from the PD), and that also can't be the case.

We don't need to worry about the pocket dimension if he can regenerate. And we wouldn't need to worry about the DBT if he lives within out time line. Maybe we were just over thinking it.