Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?

[Azala]

Nope. You Can't. Ol' Queenie won't let you in.

[Chrono'99]

In his Pocket Dimension, Lavos cannot collect data from the Apocalypse and from the ruined future. This is because when he is in his PD, he hasn't caused the Apocalypse yet.

[ZealKnight]

in that case the Gaurdian had to be built before 1999.

[ZeaLitY]

Which solution is ultimately simpler? The Pocket Dimension was never physically stated in Chrono Trigger, merely suggested with a few pieces of evidence which have come to be recognized as problematic and related to gameplay quirks.

The main issue I have with the 65KK theory is that Lavos is millions upon millions of years old. But think of the opposite; with a Pocket Dimension, Lavos can effectively time travel at will. Lavos can enter a Pocket Dimension, select an era millions of years in the future, and emerge at whatever time period he likes, perhaps including the End of Time.

But here's the issue. If Lavos pulled that stuff off, he could conceivably see the entire future from his Pocket Dimension, and collect the most advanced DNA imaginable. He'd never have to worry about a threat; he'd be completely undetectable within his safe little dimension, and even if some advanced race could find him, they'd appear to challenge him instantly after he created the Pocket Dimension, since Lavos would now be on Time Error with the timelines laid out before him in their entirety. So Lavos could effectively see eternity for a planet.

If we agree that Lavos is not threatened in this concealed state, then he has no reason to emerge to destroy humanity. In fact, he'd get more out of letting humanity go on, as he could harness its advanced technology and evolution. But let's assume that Lavos still has to come out at 1999 A.D. Without Time Traveler's Immunity, Lavos would instantly lose memory of everything past 1999 A.D. upon destroying the world. The effects of bringing about a ruined future would manifest right back to Lavos's early history without the veil of TTI, and he could never see the Guardian.

(I don't think anyone's noted it yet, but the Guardian, aside from gameplay, was brought up because it's something the party encountered. Lavos may be reading the memories of the party, but to actually imitate those physical effects, it probably needs to have done a full DNA or technical analysis in line with its mission. Anyhow, Lavos brought up that specific boss because the party encountered it; there were probably numerous mythical beasts it could have also relied on. But in retrospect, the entire Guardian thing is probably moot under gameplay now.)

But WITH TTI, we still invoke those other problems discussed earlier. So to explain the one remaining problem of why 12000 B.C. Lavos has no shell, we can argue that Queen Zeal temporally summoned Lavos there:

Oh almighty Lavos, lend me your power!

Lavos is shown to erupt from the ocean floor, but he already did this visually back when he destroyed Zeal, so it's not inconsistent that Lavos can burrow to the surface and then retreat. We have virtual historical precedent for this exact thing with Magus, who summoned Lavos probably spatially and whose Lair was destroyed as a side effect.

I realize we have two issues here: 1) Magus required a giant summoning process, and Queen Zeal didn't. As a counterpoint, Queen Zeal may have been acting as Lavos's terrestrial envoy, or might have even had the Frozen Flame still with her at that point since the Mammon Machine is intact, presumably spit out of the DBT. We already have an example of the Frozen Flame allowing Lavos to call one particular facility 10,000 years back in time... 2) Leaving still spits the party out in 1999 A.D. We can say that like Magus's summon, which didn't cause Lavos to erupt or make a permanent presence on the surface, wore off after it ran its course. After all, a giant event in 600 A.D. would have been recorded by Chronopolis, which could not have recorded Zeal's demise due to a lack of evidence / antiquity. So Lavos, appeared long enough to take on Lavos, and then went back underground. Likewise, Queen Zeal's temporal summon brought Lavos there, but only in the sense of like Chronopolis's presence in El Nido: there's a Gate Effect presence, but inside, it's still 1999 A.D., or whatever era Queen Zeal plucked Lavos from under this theory.

So if this seems logical, we might want to retire the PD theory and adopt the 65KK explanation. We can deal with the ramifications (Armageddon Branch and other things) on a case-by-case basis. I will reread all our analysis in the encyclopedia and bring up offending examples.

Edit: I guess this doesn't matter because the world is a globe, but Mr. Molecule brought this up:

If Lavos is in a pocket dimension, why does it matter how close the summoner's circle is built to his location? That is, if he has no physical location in the world, then summoning him into the world (presumably through a dimensional gate) shouldn't change depending on location.

Or, are we debating his closeness to where the walls between the PD and the regular world are weakest?

So, under the 65KK idea, the placement of Magus's Lair might have some meaning.

[Radox Redux]

Question: Why can't the Pocket Dimention merely exist in all eras at the same time including the ruined future. Whos to say he doesn't go back into his PD after the Day of Lavos? When Chrono and teh gang defeat him, they are simultaniously defeating him in all the eras.

This could also provide a solution to the Doan Paradox. Maybe the Chrono team exited the PD in the ruined future and picked up Doan from there. Even after they defeat Lavos, they wouldn't be able to access the new timeline until they time-travelled to a point before 1999 AD.

[ZeaLitY]

It would have to be a TTI-less situation, or else we run into those usual problems of having to defeat the Lavos outside the PD in 1999 A.D. But without TTI, we get the Guardian Paradox and have to rely on those assertions Chrono'99 brought up earlier (Lavos never left the PD; he created it after the Ocean Palace incident, which negates the millions of years concern for 65KK, etc.).

[Thought]

Now point 1/ is something I've only mentioned once, in the post you quoted. The Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head intact regardless of what you do to Lavos elsewhere. The site's explanation is that it's just a gameplay inconsistency because you're supposed to lose to Lavos during that scene to continue to normal storyline (Crono dies).

This is a bit late in coming, though still relevant to present discussion, so allow me to comment. If Lavos having his "head" in point 1/ (when he appears and kills Crono) can be a gameplay inconsistency, why can't Lavos not having his "head" in point 2/ (when he appears in 12,000 BC for the final battle) also be a gameplay inconsistency? In point 1/, you're supposed to lose to Lavos in order to continue the normal storyline. In point 2/, you are supposed to continue fighting Lavos in order to continue the normal storyline. Indeed, it is only if one acts irrationally that point 2/ is even possible. Certainly it would be a curious situation for the team to have defeated Lavos' maw, realized that there was something inside, then run away to an earlier period to battle him again. It is a result of a player intentionally testing the system, rather than the character's testing the story.

The main issue I have with the 65KK theory is that Lavos is millions upon millions of years old.

Why is that an issue, out of curiosity? The Entity is likewise "millions upon millions" of years old (depending on how Lavos traveled to Earth, the Entity may or may not be "older").

he'd be completely undetectable within his safe little dimension, and even if some advanced race could find him, they'd appear to challenge him instantly after he created the Pocket Dimension, since Lavos would now be on Time Error with the timelines laid out before him in their entirety.

Why would they appear instantly after the PD was created? By that logic, Crono and Co would have then appeared at the End of Time instantly upon its "creation" (or, to use a game marker, Gaspar and Crono would have appeared at the End of Time at the exact same instant), wouldn't they? Well, I suppose if the gathered information about Lavos (to know that he was even there) in a manner that didn't itself use Time Error (Crono and Co experiencing Time Error repeatedly in their travels, and thus being able to appear to Lavos at a Time Error point after the PD was created), then they might appear instantly. But would such even be possible?

Side note: Unless we assume that after the Day of Lavos human civilization slowly decayed (rather than being nearly obliterated from day 1), the Guardian had to have been built before 1999AD. After that point, there would have been no one to have built it. But I seem to recall that if Crono and Co hadn't faced a boss yet, Lavos wouldn't imitate it (specifically, if on a New Game+ one faces Lavos before the Fated Hour). Is my memory just horrible or does that seem correct to others? If so, then that would strongly indicate that Lavos is drawing on the memories of Crono and Co (not the planet, not its own experience).

Further Side Note: I looked through the Encyclopedia and didn't find "65KK Theory" or any references to it. Would I be correct in assuming that this is just stating that Lavos physically burrowed into the earth and slept there, removing the PD and all that it entails?

[dankun]

Okay I think it's time that we finally settle on wether this so called Pocket Dimension theory is a flawed or a legitimate theory...

Facts:
- Lavos appears in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen is beaten (point I on my diagram).
- If the party defeated Lavos's shell earlier in the game, Lavos will be without shell (well, without "head" more precisely) there.

Issue:
- According to the Pocket Dimension theory and the Time Error principle, Lavos shouldn't even be able to appear in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen, since his Pocket Dimension has already been dissolved at point D. He also never appeared at that date in the original timeline (no Black Omen back then).

Well, there you have it.... all the facts that any theory trying to resolve this issue should be based upon and the issue that the Pocket Dimension theory has since been presentend with.

However, there is something wrong with the stated issue. Lavos may not have been able to appear in 12000bc through the Black Omen (as there simply never was a Black Omen in that timeline), but did, very much so, appeared during the Ocean Palace disater in the original timeline.

Flawed solution (in case you're wondering):
- Perhaps Lavos simply never dissolved his PD? He wouldn't have exited it in 1999 A.D. and continued to live within it on Death Peak. This doesn't work, because even if Lavos didn't exit his PD at point D, his Destruction Rain would still have exited it, and thus the Rain would still appear in 1999 A.D. at point J, destroying the world.

How does something like that even work, exactly? How in hell does Lavos just never exits his Pocket Dimension and yet "continued to live within it on Death Peak"? As for the Destruction Rain form the Heavens, I am forced to raise a similiar objection to it. How in heavens name is the Destruction Rain allowed to leave that dimension's realm of existence? I was under the impression that a Pocket Dimension should be considered exactly as such, a completely different plane of existence that shouldn't be even able to manifest its presence physically unto that of any of the other regular dimensions, with a different time flow principle altogether. How does that rain, specifcally, not fall anywhere but inside of the actual Pocket Dimension?

It's complicated, so let's consider the second diagram, which corresponds to what the game should be if we discard the Pocket Dimension theory. Lavos would be a normal inhabitant of the timeline and the Apocalypse a normal event of history rather than the result of him entering the timeline from somewhere else (a Pocket Dimension). Surprisingly, the diagram is heavily simplified in this scenario (I kept the same letters for consistency).

Yes, it s. Very much so, I would say. Everything is incredibly much more simplified if we take the other theory's statements and go with them. If we ditch the Pocket Dimension theory, however, several other 'issues' are bound to be presented to us. Like, for instance, the issue with the 'missing head', that the actual theory was initially created for. Let us try and take care of all problems, and settle once and for all on the most viable theory, then.

In this no-PD scenario, the only issue is how Lavos loses his head in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen if you had destroyed it in 1999 A.D. (this unique issue was the reason the PD theory was imagined initially). Well, a possible solution is that this 12000 B.C. Lavos is the 1999 A.D. one time-traveling to the past. This solution was already mentioned in this thread, but it's really less farfetched and more simple with the PD theory taken out. Seeing how Lavos can time-warp people and his Core can create weird time-warping vortex effects, Lavos can probably time-travel himself. This would even explain why the Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head regardless of what you do to him in 1999 A.D. (the OP Lavos would simply be the past version of the 1999 A.D. one).

Yes. Like you said, a very plausible solution to the head problem, within this theory, would be to have the Lavos from 1999ad time traveling to past, to the actual point in time at which the party decided to confront him (which according the game's canon, should be done in 12000bc). Nicely, this takes care of almost all problems for us. As this theory, does in fact, take into account the fact that he could very well be confronted in any of the other time periods as well (with the exception of 2300ad). This also deals with the problem of the 'ever-present' undestroyable head that Lavos has during the Ocean Palace incident. If the Pocket Dimension theory was initially created to solve a 'missing-head' kind of issue to begin with, why can't this other theory be considered a more plausible and legitimate one, when it effectively solves another 'head-related' issue, that wasn't even its focus in the first place?

We can leave it this way: Lavos is defeated in 12000 B.C. No paradox, no unresolvable issue. It works, I think.

As for what to do with the Armageddon-Branch theory, we'll discuss that in another thread because there's probably too much stuff here already (I hope this post made sense).

Yes, it works. Perfectly in accordance with Chrono Cross, as well. As for what the actual Armageddon-Branch theory's status is concerned, I thought it had been discarded as a legitimate one already, because of some other unrelated issues with the Pocket Dimension theory were found. I could be wrong on that, however.

EDIT: Actually, the "flawed" solution can work if we say that exiting a Pocket Dimension doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (alpha's suggestion of existing both "in and out of time"), and that Lavos created his PD at point B (like V_Translanka once suggested). Thus his defeat in the PD would prevent the Apocalypse, but not the Fall of Zeal which was caused by a non-PD Lavos. Thoughts?

Okay, and now for your suggestions to actually fix and salvage the much regarded 'Pocket Dimension' theory. First of all, this is assuming way too much stuff in the first place already, that was never even stated in the game (should not even be considered canon). This is problematic, not only for the fact that theories should only be based on as much sound and solid in-game evidence to be viable; but also as a result of it making further assumptions basing itself from these things.

The potential problems I see with making these further assumptions for the theory are as follows:
Why would exiting a Pocket Dimension, not grant Time Traveler's Immunity? This would effectively establish an exception to the TTI Theory itself, and would thus put in jeopardy (if left unexplained correctly) its validity as a theory itself. Indeed, if exiting a Pocket Dimension wouldn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity more problems would be raised than those that it is actually alleged to solve.

As alpha mentioned previously in the thread, a valid objection to this further assumption would be that you can actually still very much go to 2300ad, after having defeated Lavos' 'shell' during 1999ad. You can still watch the Day of Lavos video, and can in fact perfectly see the Destruction Rain falling nto the world. The only explanation offered was that 'destroying' his actual 'shell' wouldn't stop the rain from happening, as another part of Lavos is indeed, still alive and well inside.
Now, considering that the actual rain is spread from his 'shell' and the fact that the only time in which he actually uses this ability against the party is during that fight, I wouldn't think for him to still be able to call upon it after his shell has been defeated.

As for some of the other problems that I noticed, I don't think that the 'creation' of a Pocket Dimension at specific strategic points during the timeline would 'fly' with what the current explanations of what a 'pocket' dimension actually is and how they work at all.

The only other problem left in my mind, would be to come up with a plausible explanation of how then, did Lavos managed to get the Darkness Beyond Time, upon its defeat at the hands of Crono and Co.? I could offer a very simple solution to this. Lavos, being somewhat of a Time-controlling entity (as is demonstrated by the fact that he was the one to send the Gurus and Janus on a 'trip' through the timeline), actually made a 'special' kind of gate for himself, that was more like a 'dimensional-vortex', where he would be able to have a more 'complete' control over all of Time itself. Thus, he shunted himself to the Darkness Beyond Time... where upon all discarded Timelines are sent to, grabbing Shcala (who was near the Mammon Machine, that had a part of his being inside of it, i.e. The Frozen Flame) along in the process, for the simple fact that she was very close to another part of him.

Any problems left? 

[neo-fusion]

Well, the one true explanation is that the guardian was already created... The domes were already in working order as we can see in 1999 AD... So with no technology since 2400 ad is a wasteland it must be considered that the guardian was built before 1999 ad.

I think this solves it.

[ZeaLitY]

I'll hold off from confronting this until this analysis review is completed. To tie up loose ends that may not need tying:

This is a bit late in coming, though still relevant to present discussion, so allow me to comment. If Lavos having his "head" in point 1/ (when he appears and kills Crono) can be a gameplay inconsistency, why can't Lavos not having his "head" in point 2/ (when he appears in 12,000 BC for the final battle) also be a gameplay inconsistency? In point 1/, you're supposed to lose to Lavos in order to continue the normal storyline. In point 2/, you are supposed to continue fighting Lavos in order to continue the normal storyline. Indeed, it is only if one acts irrationally that point 2/ is even possible. Certainly it would be a curious situation for the team to have defeated Lavos' maw, realized that there was something inside, then run away to an earlier period to battle him again. It is a result of a player intentionally testing the system, rather than the character's testing the story.

Good points.

Why would they appear instantly after the PD was created? By that logic, Crono and Co would have then appeared at the End of Time instantly upon its "creation" (or, to use a game marker, Gaspar and Crono would have appeared at the End of Time at the exact same instant), wouldn't they? Well, I suppose if the gathered information about Lavos (to know that he was even there) in a manner that didn't itself use Time Error (Crono and Co experiencing Time Error repeatedly in their travels, and thus being able to appear to Lavos at a Time Error point after the PD was created), then they might appear instantly. But would such even be possible?

We can think of it in terms of Time Error. When the Entity sends Gaspar to the End of Time, he's there until the moment of Time Error at which the Entity causes Marle's pendant to react with the Telepod Gate. Even then, we've still got a bunch of Time Error periods while Crono and the others travel to 600 A.D. and 2300 A.D. Contrarily, for the "2600 A.D. Lavos Attack Squad", we can say that if such an agency does no time traveling before going to the Pocket Dimension to confront Lavos, they'd instantly appear. But yeah...this approach works both ways. A temporal agency would definitely experimentally test time travel before using it to attack Lavos, so he'd have a lot of time to prepare. Okay, this is all dismissed.

Further Side Note: I looked through the Encyclopedia and didn't find "65KK Theory" or any references to it. Would I be correct in assuming that this is just stating that Lavos physically burrowed into the earth and slept there, removing the PD and all that it entails?

Why is that an issue, out of curiosity? The Entity is likewise "millions upon millions" of years old (depending on how Lavos traveled to Earth, the Entity may or may not be "older").

Yes, that's what it entails. I no longer have an issue with it.

[stenir]

What if the shell is the actual gateway to the Pocket Dimension? Wouldn't this make a bit more sense than saying that Lavos travelled in and out of the PD?

Think on this: Say Lavos is in the PD. He triggers the Day of Lavos by making the shell rise out of the planet's crust. Instead of coming out of the shell, he attacks through the shell and, therefore, through the barrier of the PD. Say that you defeat his shell. Based on what we know, and coupled with my theory that the shell exists as the gateway to the PD from the Chronoverse, what if Lavos takes genetic material (as we know he needs it to create his spawns and that's what he feeds on to survive throughout the years) and uses that genetic material as a sort of mini-spawn? He shifts the entry point from the destroyed shell to a new piece of genetic material, and over the years Lavos' energy manipulates it until it has become a new shell.

That would solve the problem of how you could still see a shell causing the Destruction Rain even though you would have defeated a shell previously. This also solves the problem of how if you destroy the shell, it can still cause the Destruction Rain (which would be Lavos firing through the shell), although the shell you'd see in 1999 is still destroyed. Perhaps it takes millenia for a new shell to be completely generated, so Lavos would have had to make do.

Of course, that means that Crono and his party actually enter the PD to destroy Lavos once and for all.

This is my half-decent attempt at combining the PD theory with the "what if Lavos actually existed in the timeline".

[chrono eric]

Naw, the PD theory is likely completely bunk anyways. There is no true reason for it and not really any evidence in favor of it either. This probably really is a paradox.

[ZealKnight]

Well were trying to make it... not... a paradox. (loss of vocabulary there) So don't rule it out just yet, if it can explain paradoxes let it be, until we find a better solution, eric.

[Thought]

Wait, what is the paradox again?

[FouCapitan]

Wait, what is the paradox again?

Lavos is fought in 1999, Lavos copies a boss from 2300....  Is that really a paradox?

Regardless, I have to agree with Z that the Guardian was likely active before 1999.  Then again Lavos' abilities to manipulate space/time may allow him to emulate things from his own future.

Edit after reading through everything, yowza!:  I also have to agree that the PD theory is baseless, and is ready for retirement.