Possible solution to the Marle Paradox

[Radox Redux]

I don't know if anybody has suggested this theory before but i think it's quite a neat and plausible solution to establish what happened to Marle during her brief disappearance in 600 AD. It isn't listed in the Compendium article, so hopefully this is new to you guys.

Firstly let's get one thing clear: We already know that the real reason for the Marle Paradox was caused by real-life confliction during the making of Trigger's story. Because of this there probably isn't a real in-universe explanation behind the contradiction, and I'm not proclaiming that this theory is canon, nor that the makers of the game intended it to be so. But I think it's quite a good in-universe explanation.

Now the main basis of this theory comes from GrayLensmans theory that the Sea of Eden in Cross is, in fact, a chunk of space-time from the year 15420 AD, which had been 'swapped' with the equivalent chunk of space-time in 1020 AD. I'm not as good as explaining it as GrayLensman was, but essentially the theory holds that the area of the Sea of Eden didn't actually time-travel, but rather it still exists in 15420 AD, and that the barrier surrounding it acts in the same way as a time gate. This theory is usually assumed true by the majority of Chrono fans, until otherwise contradicted. Everything in Cross, including the appearance of the Dead Sea seems to support the idea.

What is important about this is that, as we learn from the Dead Sea, this area of time changes to reflect the future based off the actions of the past. In many ways this can be seen as a circumvention of the otherwise consistant 'Time Travellers Immunity'. However it certainly works within the excepted science behind time-travel within the Chrono universe. Now the question becomes: Could the same thing of happened to Marle in 600 AD. Allow me to explain further:

In Trigger the time-travel that is utilised at the beginning of the game is noticably caused by a different method than the one utilised later by the gang. It could almost be expressed as a fault of the machine. While this is refutable since Lucca apparently based the Gate Key off the configuration of the Telepod machine, it nevertheless is comparable with the Time Crash in the following ways:

1. Both of these events can be identified as errors. It's a strange coincidence that both 'errors' were actually preplanned, (one by the Entity and the other by Belthasar respectively.) but either way, both events were directly caused by malfunctions that weren't supposed to happen. Most other instances of time-travel in the series are the result of the intended function of a machine. (For example, the Gate Key, Epoch and Neo Epoch.)

2.  In both instances a foreign object was integral to the event: Schala's Pendent and the Frozen Flame.

So, following the assumption that 'Telepod Incident' was kinda like a smaller Time crash, now the events are slightly different: During the beginning of Trigger, Marle and Chrono didn't 'time-travel' perse, but rather, their space-time was swapped with space-time in 600 AD, similar to what the Time Crash did with the Sea of Eden. However, as opposed to the Sea of Eden, which includes an area of sea surrounding Chronopolis, Marle's displacement is equal to that of her body mass. This would mean that, in theory, if she were to change her history, her appearance in 600 AD would change to reflect her state in 1000 AD, hence why she disappears after dangering her own existence.

So what do you think? It seems pretty solid to me. Any problems?

THEORY REVISION 1

LinktotheFuture @ the Chrono Crisis forums correctly pointed out that if the effects of Chrono's TTI were eliminated then he would have no memory of Marle, after history of changed, even if it is changed by Lucca. I revised the theory to fix this:

Only Marle was effected by this pre-destination paradox and only Marle entered the Gate without any items to help her, so that's probably why it occurs.

Maybe Chrono's Time-Travel wasn't the same as Marle's afterall... Marle's pendent activated whatever flaw created the initial time gate, but she didn't go through with it. It could have something that protects against the effects of a Time-Crash. Concidering that Lucca' Gate Key was probably based on whatever readings came from the Telepod as a result of the Telepod/Pendent reaction, she would still gain TTI.

Think of it as the pendent as completing a circuit. When Marle let go of it, the circuit broke creating an error. The Gate Key was based off the completed circuit so she doesn't need either a telepod nor a pendent to travel through time... just the Gate Key.

[Tiammat]

Very interesting...

But, in GreyLensmans theory, Chronopolis exists both in 1020 AD and 15420 AD, right? In Marle's case, she disappears from 1000 AD. She doesn't exists both in 1000 AD and 600 AD.

However, GrayLensmans theory does not explain if the people of 15420 AD sees Chronopolis, since it's connected to the past. If your theory were true, than we can answer that question: "the people of 15420AD cannot see Chronopolis, even though it is there", and is the exact same thing with Marle: "The people of 1000AD doesn't see Marle, even though she is there".

But, let's forget this for a moment... if your theory were true, then the first time travel of Crono and Marle were not to 600 AD but to 2300 AD, right? the 600 AD trip was like the Time Crash, then they return to 1000 AD, anulling the effects of the malfunctioning gate. Then Crono goes to prison, escapes with Marle and Lucca and travel to 2300AD.

Am i right?

[Radox Redux]

But, let's forget this for a moment... if your theory were true, then the first time travel of Crono and Marle were not to 600 AD but to 2300 AD, right? the 600 AD trip was like the Time Crash, then they return to 1000 AD, anulling the effects of the malfunctioning gate. Then Crono goes to prison, escapes with Marle and Lucca and travel to 2300AD.

Well, Lucca comes to 600 AD with the Gate Key so they return to 1000 AD using normal Gate travel. Only the first travel through time at the telepods apply. When they return to 1000 AD via normal time-travel, both Marle and Crono's space-time co-ordinates are returned to normal thanks to Time Travellers Immunity (which will protect them from any furthur endangerment). Thats the way I see it at least.

[Tiammat]

If they did not travelled through time... if it was a mini Time Crash, then they wouldn't gain the benefits from "Time Travellers Immunity"... this is why Marle disappeared...

You said:

"...both Marle and Crono's space-time co-ordinates are returned to normal thanks to Time Travellers Immunity (which will protect them from any furthur endangerment)."

But i think this is better:

"... both Marle and Crono's space-time co-ordinates are returned to normal. Time Travelers Immunity then protects them from any further endangerment."

The reason is that i didn't understand why they returned to normal BECAUSE of "Time Travellers Immunity"... I agree that they returned to normal, but i think it has nothing to do with TTI...

[Radox Redux]

TTI protects them from endangering their own existance thus reversing the Time-Crash effect (wherein they reflect changes to their timeline). I can't really state it more simple than that.

[Chrono'99]

There are some potential problems with this theory. The Telepod Gates looked exactly like regular blue time Gates that sucked Marle and Crono, while the Time Crash in Chrono Cross seems to be the huge black sphere that engulfs Chronopolis in one of the cutscene. We don't see what happens right after the Time Crash, but (from the 2400 A.D. point of view) the black sphere should probably just dissipate and Chronopolis should still be visible on that same spot since it didn't time travel; the only difference would be that it suddenly aged ten thousand years.

This isn't the case with Marle and Crono. We just see them being sucked into a Time Gate (and the player as Crono definitely sees the purple time tunnel). If it were a miniature Time Crash, Lucca and co. in 1000 A.D. would see them rapidly age 400 years (they would degenerate into skeletons then ashes) instead of falling into a Gate.

Overall, it just seems like an elaborate way of circumventing the plothole. It isn't directly supported by ingame statements, only by a small number of peripheral extrapolations. You might say TTI isn't supported by statements either, but it's consistently supported by every instance of time traveling except this Marle paradox. A theory trying to explain the Marle paradox faces the problem of being an exceptional rule that for some reason only applies to an exception and not to all other situations which should be similar.

Besides, the question of why Marle disappear only when Crono enters the Queen's room remains. And also why Marle distinctly feels and knows she's disappearing, when she's disappearing.

[Radox Redux]

There are some potential problems with this theory. The Telepod Gates looked exactly like regular blue time Gates that sucked Marle and Crono, while the Time Crash in Chrono Cross seems to be the huge black sphere that engulfs Chronopolis in one of the cutscene. We don't see what happens right after the Time Crash, but (from the 2400 A.D. point of view) the black sphere should probably just dissipate and Chronopolis should still be visible on that same spot since it didn't time travel; the only difference would be that it suddenly aged ten thousand years.

That would only be a result of Chronopolis remaining stationary. The same would be true if Marle stayed in the same spot until 1000 AD. Also you're assuming that Chronopolis doesn't move relative location during the Time Crash.

This isn't the case with Marle and Crono. We just see them being sucked into a Time Gate (and the player as Crono definitely sees the purple time tunnel). If it were a miniature Time Crash, Lucca and co. in 1000 A.D. would see them rapidly age 400 years (they would degenerate into skeletons then ashes) instead of falling into a Gate.

That could be a result of the Gate Key being based off the Telepod config. The Epoch has the same type of time-travel yet no blue portal has ever been present.

Overall, it just seems like an elaborate way of circumventing the plothole. It isn't directly supported by ingame statements, only by a small number of peripheral extrapolations. You might say TTI isn't supported by statements either, but it's consistently supported by every instance of time traveling except this Marle paradox. A theory trying to explain the Marle paradox faces the problem of being an exceptional rule that for some reason only applies to an exception and not to all other situations which should be similar.

I actually think it's a pretty simple explaination as opposed to an elaborate one. And as for it being an exception, well that's what makes this whole theory work. The initial bout of time-travelry is an exception. It's even listed as such on the encyclopedea: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Temporal_Distortions_%28Cause_of%29.html

Besides, the question of why Marle disappear only when Crono enters the Queen's room remains. And also why Marle distinctly feels and knows she's disappearing, when she's disappearing.

One plot-hole at a time please. lol. Yeah, but I don't think that one will ever be solved. It's a blatant contradiction. Anything that could effect Marle, would happen immediatly, so I doubt a theory will ever be made to support both the actual Grandfather Paradox and Marle's late disappearance. If I could stab at a guess, I'd say that mayb eit was Chrono who changed something instead of Marle. That would also explain how Chrono could travel into the past anyway (another paradox). Though 'how' he changed history is anybody's guess. Perhaps something to do with Schala's pendent maybe?

[Thought]

Actually, I would say that Marle's belated disappearance would more likely be linked with Lucca than Chrono, just going from when it happened. After all, Chrono was just standing in a room when Marle disappeared; doesn't seem that like that should change the timeline. Lucca, on the other hand, was trekking from the mountains to the castle; who knows what she changed during that time.

Does TTI protect one from ALL changes to the timeline or just those changes that the individual makes?

If it is all, then we have a Chrono Paradox as well (how could Chrono, who should be immune from changes to the timeline, be saved via use of the Time Egg).

If it is only those changes that the individual or group makes, then Marle, despite having TTI, would have been effected by any changes Lucca made to the timeline (and we just don't know what those changes were).

[Radox Redux]

I think you're misunderstanding TTI. It's simply the result of the fact that by changing history they are creating a new history which they aren't a part of. They could go back to their own 10th b-day and kill themselves, and they'll still be there. They'd just be an alternate version of themselves from an alternate timeline. All changes made to the timeline, will effect everybody (except the time travellers).

 If Marle is reflecting future changes of herself like the Dead Sea, then certainly any of the three could have changed the future. I'll admit I never thought of Lucca. That's quite a good idea. Concidering how minimal Chrono's actions were it suits the theory much better if Lucca is somehow responsible for changing the future. It's much more likely than Chrono, but once again the question remains as to 'why'.

Speculation Time: One thing that I always wondered: How did Lucca get into the castle anyway? Marle let Chrono in, but that doesn't explain Lucca. Presuming she used force, maybe some guards (who could've still found Leene despite Marle's changes) were knocked unconscious by Lucca on her way into the castle resulting in a change of history.

[Tiammat]

I see...

[Radox Redux]

I added a Revision to the theory. Thanks to LinktotheFuture for pointing out a fatal flaw.

[Thought]

Wait, so even though the pendant caused both Marle and Chrono to travel back in time, it only granted TTI to Chrono? This necessitates that we imagine that the Pendant has unique powers otherwise unobserved in the game. Not saying that it isn't possible, but it seems like a less than stellar answer. We go from "The Entity did it" to "The Pendant did it." However, your theory IS supported by the fact that after Marle travels, there is no gate visible, but that after Chrono travels there is one.

It looks like your theory works but that is has limited applications (same as with the "Entity did it" theory). Can you think of any other situations that your theory might be applied to, as a sort of test? Unless it can help us predict future/other events, then it is more of an explanation than a theory.

Just a theoretical,

Thought

[Radox Redux]

We go from "The Entity did it" to "The Pendant did it."

Only when you word it like that. There are major differences. All I've really done is go from "Early instance of time-travel is unique" to "Marle instance of time-travel is unique." Which technically, is true. Also keep in mind that it was the pendent that activated teh time-travel and that it was that reaction that Lucca somehow utilized to create the Gate Key. Which makes this about ten times more applicable than 'Entity did it' which is just the ultimate cop-out.

Plus you're ignoring a massive fact, which is that the pendent did do it. This is exactly what we see at the beginning of the game. It's actually a canon fact. Whereas the "the entity did it" theories lack any basis on this level.

[Thought]

Plus you're ignoring a massive fact, which is that the pendent did do it. This is exactly what we see at the beginning of the game. It's actually a canon fact. Whereas the "the entity did it" theories lack any basis on this level.

What "it" are you referring to? The pendant, presumably due to its abilities to manage energy, did activate the time distortion that sent Marle into the past, as well as Chrono a few minutes later. But that isn't the "it" that "the pendant did it" or "the entity did it" are referring to. You are claiming that it is because of the pendant that Marle can be subject to the grandfather paradox.

Let us take a specific look at your suppositions:

1) Marle could have been subject to a "time crash," in a similar manner that Chronopolis seems to have been subject to such a crash.

2) Chrono, though he was subject to a very similar set of circumstances, experienced a different sort of time travel since he held the pendant (Marle having dropped it).

3) Marle, lacking the pendant, is subject to the grandfather paradox.

4) Chrono, with the pendant, has full TTI.

The problem with this is that the technology behind the time crash and Marle' disappearance are inherently different. It would be paramount to saying that adding the pendant to a horse could turn it into a space shuttle! The timecrash utilized the frozen flame, which is notably absent from Marle's disappearance. Even those problem aside, the time crash "expos[ed] the entire Sea of Eden outside the time stream;" the time crash alone didn't send Chronopolis back it time, rather it seems to have moved it outside of time (thus, sort of like the End of Time). Lavos, sensing it and realizing that it would be defeated, then brought it back to the past in an effort to change the future enough to change its own fate.

Even assuming Marle experienced a time crash, that would have just put her outside of time; it would have taken a Lavos-like being to actually transport her to 600 AD. The only two beings like that that we are aware of are Lavos and the Entity.

As Crono 99 pointed out, the time crash created a black dome in CC; Marle, however, went through a standard blue portal. Thus, even the physical appearance of the two circumstances appears to not be the same.

Problems with the Marle/Time Crash portion of your theory aside, your theory necessitates that when exposed to the same set of circumstances, the pendant provides TTI if one holds it through the entirety of the process. As you put it, you are proposing that the pendant protects against TTI-less time crashes. Why should this be the case? There is no hint of this anywhere else in the game. As for the gatekey, you are assuming that Lucca was able to duplicate this ability based on just what she saw and was able to deduce? She is smart, but that is like saying that if she saw a nuclear explosion she could easily figure out how it was done! Furthermore, the pendant is made from dreamstone, the gatekey is not. The pendant needed the telepod reaction to cause the gate to open, the key can open it on its own. These two objects are different in almost every regard.

Your theory works, but it is quite convoluted. Given that the only time your theory can even come into play is when an individual starts a time crash with a pendant like device but doesn't carry that device back in time with them, I would say your theory has almost no practical value for determining future events. As such, it is really just a patchwork explanation, not a theory.

Just a random,

Thought

[Radox Redux]

[quote

What "it" are you referring to?

The same 'it' you were referring to. I was only refuting a refutation, this is what you said: "We go from "The Entity did it" to "The Pendant did it."

[quote

You are claiming that it is because of the pendant that Marle can be subject to the grandfather paradox.
 

No I'm not. Read my posts. I'm saying that Marle is the victim of a Time Crash, that the pendent negates.

[quote

The problem with this is that the technology behind the time crash and Marle' disappearance are inherently different. It would be paramount to saying that adding the pendant to a horse could turn it into a space shuttle!
 

First of all the word your looking for is 'tantamount', and secondly, no it isn't. The pendent is a preventative of the Time Crash effect, not the cause of TTI.

[quote

The timecrash utilized the frozen flame, which is notably absent from Marle's disappearance. Even those problem aside, the time crash "expos[ed] the entire Sea of Eden outside the time stream

I'm going to assume that you didn't read my first post properly. Allow me to quote the relevant part:

Marle and Chrono didn't 'time-travel' perse, but rather, their space-time was swapped with space-time in 600 AD, similar to what the Time Crash did with the Sea of Eden. However, as opposed to the Sea of Eden, which includes an area of sea surrounding Chronopolis, Marle's displacement is equal to that of her body mass.
 

[quote

Even assuming Marle experienced a time crash, that would have just put her outside of time; it would have taken a Lavos-like being to actually transport her to 600 AD. The only two beings like that that we are aware of are Lavos and the Entity.

There are several possibilities to explain this, the most likely being that Marle had a convieniently present gate, which took her to 600 AD. The Sea of Eden didn't. Also, I'm not sure that even states that the Sea of Eden was lost 'outside time' in CC. It may have been travelling to any location, and still have been pulled to 12,000 BC. In this case Lavos was an intervention more than a direct cause.

[quote

As Crono 99 pointed out, the time crash created a black dome in CC; Marle, however, went through a standard blue portal. Thus, even the physical appearance of the two circumstances appears to not be the same.
 

I refuted this back in my reply to Crono 99 post.

[quote

Problems with the Marle/Time Crash portion of your theory aside, your theory necessitates that when exposed to the same set of circumstances, the pendant provides TTI if one holds it through the entirety of the process. As you put it, you are proposing that the pendant protects against TTI-less time crashes. Why should this be the case? There is no hint of this anywhere else in the game. As for the gatekey, you are assuming that Lucca was able to duplicate this ability based on just what she saw and was able to deduce? She is smart, but that is like saying that if she saw a nuclear explosion she could easily figure out how it was done!

Once again you need to read my posts more carefully, Not once did I say she can ascertain the process merely by watching it: She herself said that she figured it out based on data from the telepod. But that data would have been useless without the pendent's reaction. It was this reaction that Lucca used to create teh Gate Key. Since that's the nly way she could of.

[quote

Furthermore, the pendant is made from dreamstone, the gatekey is not. The pendant needed the telepod reaction to cause the gate to open, the key can open it on its own. These two objects are different in almost every regard.
 

This isn't even a refutation. I never said they were the same. What's your point?

[quote

Your theory works, but it is quite convoluted. Given that the only time your theory can even come into play is when an individual starts a time crash with a pendant like device but doesn't carry that device back in time with them, I would say your theory has almost no practical value for determining future events. As such, it is really just a patchwork explanation, not a theory.
 

I heard you the first time. Thanks for the english lesson, but a theory is just something thats theoretical. It has nothing to do with past, present or future. Scientists theorise about past events all the time. But yes, this theory is also an explaination like most theories of the past are.