Lavos time flow not perpendicular?

[Shadow D. Darkman]

I personally think the canon should be that they fight Lavos in 12,000 B.C. in order to learn his weaknesses and form an effective strategy when they engage him in 1999 A.D. Since that would be redundant, the need for a second battle was removed.

If that doesn't work, then do what the guy did in T.L.O.C.T. They didn't fight Lavos after destroying the Black Omen in that. They went to 1999 A.D. after destroying the Omen, and crash Epoch into Lavos.

[V_Translanka]

Wait, can you defeat his shell in 1999 and then visit him at all in other time periods...?? Once you do that in 1999, isn't there no turning back? The gate only appears in the Black Omen Lavos, I thought...

I say they fight him in 12,000BC mainly because they're forced to (regardless of what era you go through the Black Omen you wind up fighting Lavos in 12,000), but once they finish off the 1st form, I think they back out with the Gate to gather themselves (& why not talk to Gaspar one last time?)...then they punch through him with the Epoch (MOAR DAMAGE!!! MWAHAHAHA!!!)...Balloon ending commences afterwards, giving us a goddamn 'ending' ending...

[utunnels]

Wait, can you defeat his shell in 1999 and then visit him at all in other time periods...

Yes, you can.

[V_Translanka]

Oh, right, there's an option to just back out after you defeat the shell or something...? It's been so long since I've taken that route, I must've forgotten...

[utunnels]

I have a save before I defeated the black omen Lavos, inside Lavos's shell.
I lost to the ocean palace Lavos...So that means I didn't beak its shell before....

That means I beat the shell somewhere else besides the ocean palace and black omen...

[9900giljerky]

I guess no matter what you do, the damn thing won't die. That's the impression I get from the Chrono series.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Black Omen is not the only way to challenge Lavos and find a Gate+Save in the shell. Take the bucket at the End Of Time and get in the shell, and you'll find a Gate+Save there.

EDIT: Typo detected.

[placidchap]

I think Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D. because Lavos appearing there would be covered by TTI. So even if you killed Lavos in 12000 B.C., he would still appear in 1999 A.D. to wreak havoc on the world. Only by defeating him after his final emergence in 1999 A.D. could the ruined future be changed.

Doesn't his theory applies this too? While not mentioning TTI, he is still stating that Lavos appearing there is caused by it.

Yes, I didn't have full comprehension TTI (  ) when I wrote the thing, and I probably should update it to reflect that, yes Lavos appears at each instance due to TTI.  The thing that is different is that 1999 is when Lavos permanently comes to our timeline (and permanently leaves the PD) and parks its spiky ass on death peak.  The 1999 - 2xxx Lavos is the "real" original Lavos (arrival protected by TTI).  So for the ruined future to not exist the party must travel to 1999 and kill it off there.  The other instances happen due to TTI as well.  Having it this way eliminates the inconsistency of the shell. 
It seems unnecessicarily complicated because it is poorly written and I need to fix that, but it really isn't that complicated.  The only new thing is that I say the Pocket Dimension does not exist at the time of Trigger as it has already served its purpose during the Lavos Timeline and that the "real" Lavos resides in and is defeated in 1999.

I'd say the main hurdle with my theory adjustment, is when Queen Zeal "summons" Lavos, supposedly in 12000 on the Black Omen.  Since there is no more PD, she wouldn't be able to summon a new instance of Lavos from the PD, she would have to basically transport the party to 1999 or the 1999 Lavos to the party in 12000.  For the sake of my argument, I am going to say that the party is hurled to 1999, as she intended for a full powered Lavos to destroy the party.  And that brings me to another thing is that since there is no PD, Lavos' power is not full strength at any point in time, but only at 1999.

Oh, right, there's an option to just back out after you defeat the shell or something...? It's been so long since I've taken that route, I must've forgotten...

I think the option is there before you destroy the shell, when you go through via the Omen.

[chrono eric]

This theory has bothered me since I first read it (sorry placidchap  ) but I couldn't really put my finger on why. Well I think that now I can. It's somewhat incomplete and needs to be elaborated further.

Eske and I have been systematically going through and re-evaluating a lot of old assumptions about Time Bastard, TTI, Time Error, etc. in the Time, Space, and Dimensions forum. Some notable threads are:

Marle Paradox, let's change our point of view (demonstrates that a future isn't immediately sent to the DBT upon time travel to the past, modified analysis of Time Error.)
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6596.0

Time Devourer's Defeat Undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's Death (a proof of Dimensional Bastard and Dimensional Travellers Immunity given. Re-evaluation of Cross' plot and a proof that TTI, TB, DTI, and DB are not preserved after the dimensional reunification)
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6571.0

And the entire time I was thinking about the whole Pocket Dimension conundrum. I think a slight modification about how we think about the Pocket Dimension could solve this completely.

Let's begin:

In the original timeline at the start of Trigger, Lavos has already influenced events in 12,000 BC and 600 AD, and in the future in 1999 AD. The problem arises when thinking about the nature of these events. Are they just events preserved by TTI or is Crono and co. really fighting the "true" Lavos inside of the PD? Is timeflow inside the PD really perpendicular to the timeline? Can Lavos "see" all time periods? What a headache! Let's try and figure things out by beginning with a strange but simpler problem:


Time X: Person A enters pocket dimension -----------------> Time X+2000: Person B enters pocket dimension

But at what time do each of them appear in the PD? 2000 years apart, or at the same time in the PD?

Drawing from our analysis of the Marle paradox in the other thread, if the PD can be viewed as having time flow be perpendicular:

So it can be viewed as proceeding along Time Error:

Time Error 0: Fight Lavos at Time X and stick a sword in him. Travel back in time to X-1000

Time Error 1: Fight Lavos at Time X-1000. You find that the sword is still there.

From Lavos' perspective time is flowing along the axis of Time Error. But from what we've been talking about in the Marle paradox thread, two time travellers from the same timeline but at different times can end up at the same point in Time Error. So modifying this example:

Time Error 0: Time X: Person A enters PD. Time X+2000: Person B enters PD.

When do they arrive?

Time Error 1: Both Person A and Person B arrive at the same moment in the PD!

Every moment that passes for them in the PD is like progressing through Time Error. Inside the Pocket Dimension, it is like they are continually time travelling all of the time. This is different from the normal concept of perpendicular time flow in the PD, and I believe it may answer a lot of questions.


A more relevant example:

After true "original" timeline in which Lavos "first" crashes to the planet and enters his PD, I am assigning an arbitrary time Time Error 0 in the PD in which Lavos first makes contact with Zeal in 12,000 BC:

Time Error 0: Lavos makes contact from his PD with 12,000 BC but not 600 AD. Magus is sent to 600 AD. The Guru's presumably enter the PD but are sent away as well.

Time Error 1: Magus arrives in 600 AD. Lavos makes contact with 600 AD because of Magus' interference.

Time Error 2: Corresponds to the start of Trigger and Crono and co.'s timeline. All events in which Crono and co. fight Lavos in his PD exist after Time Error 2. For the sake of argument:

Time Error 3: Crono and co. fight Lavos in the Ocean Palace (it wouldn't really be Time Error 3 since multiple instances of time travel by Crono have already occurred).

Time Error 4: Crono and co. fight Lavos from the Black Omen


This neatly explains why Lavos can appear to be contacting multiple points in time at once, and also why Crono and co. can seem to fight him out of order in their timeline but they can still see the past efforts of their struggle. It demonstrates that in true perpendicular time flow in the PD, there are no contradictions in the plot of Trigger.

But wait! This can't be correct, because we are overlooking the most important part. Lavos exits his PD in 1999 for good and lives upon the planet creating Lavos spawn. So let's put this into the above analysis now and see if it works:


Time Error 0: Lavos makes contact from his PD with 12,000 BC but not 600 AD. Magus is sent to 600 AD. The Guru's presumably enter the PD but are sent away as well. But Time Error 0 corresponds to a timeline that has Lavos emerging in 1999 AD from his pocket dimension to destroy the world.

Time Error 1: Magus arrives in 600 AD. Lavos makes contact with 600 AD because of Magus' interference. But how can Lavos make contact with Magus if he has already emerged from his Pocket Dimension?

Time Error 2: Corresponds to the start of Trigger and Crono and co.'s timeline. All events in which Crono and co. fight Lavos in his PD exist after Time Error 2. For the sake of argument:

Time Error 3: Crono and co. fight Lavos in the Ocean Palace (it wouldn't really be Time Error 3 since multiple instances of time travel by Crono have already occurred). But how can Lavos make contact with Crono and co. if he has already emerged from his PD?

So on and so forth. This demonstrates that the PD can not exhibit perpendicular time flow as placidchap predicted. Let's take a simpler example:

Time Error 0: Lavos presumably makes contact with Zeal in 12,000 BC and emerges in the original Ocean Palace incident. Lavos then re-enters his PD.

Time Error 1: Lavos then emerges from his PD for good in 1999 AD for the first time altering the timeline.

Time Error 2: Lavos no longer exists in the PD. If Crono and co. enter the PD to fight Lavos, they will not see him there.


So this proves that the PD no longer exists in the current timeline as placidchap predicted! But there's another problem! Every time Crono and co. fight Lavos, where are they fighting him since they can't fight him in the Pocket Dimension? Well the first time they fight him in Zeal, this event presumably already occurred and is preserved by TTI. Every subsequent time they fight Lavos though, they would have to be fighting the Lavos of 1999 AD! Even when Magus "summons" Lavos in 600 AD to fight him, he would have to fight him in 1999 AD.


Placidchap is correct. There is no other explanation. Either you keep the PD theory and the plot of Chrono Trigger unravels completely, or you partially do away with it and explain everything. The PD originally existed but no longer does. All instances of fighting Lavos due to TTI or in 1999 AD create the "illusion" that the PD is still there, but it can't be because of causality.

[Eske]

Alright, so I reread the Compendium's PD theory.

How many versions of Lavos can we actually access?     I see 1999AD (Bucket, Epoch) and 12000BC (Ocean Palace) and unknown (Black Omen, Telepod).   If all the unknowns were 1999AD, there would be no issue - - I think.... -_-

EDIT:  I changed it.

[chrono eric]

Alright, so I reread the Compendium's PD theory.

How many versions of Lavos can we actually access?     I see 1999AD (Bucket, Epoch) and 12000BC (Ocean Palace) and unknown (Black Omen, Telepod).   If all the unknowns were 1999AD, there would be no issue - - I think.... -_-

EDIT:  I changed it.

Yes, this is what I concluded above. Not only would there be no issue if all of the unknowns were 1999 AD, but there would be enormous issues if all of the unknowns weren't 1999 AD. Placidchap was right. The PD theory is total bunk and holds absolutely no water. It should be removed from the Compendium.

[Eske]

Alright, so I reread the Compendium's PD theory.

How many versions of Lavos can we actually access?     I see 1999AD (Bucket, Epoch) and 12000BC (Ocean Palace) and unknown (Black Omen, Telepod).   If all the unknowns were 1999AD, there would be no issue - - I think.... -_-

EDIT:  I changed it.

Yes, this is what I concluded above. Not only would there be no issue if all of the unknowns were 1999 AD, but there would be enormous issues if all of the unknowns weren't 1999 AD. Placidchap was right. The PD theory is total bunk and holds absolutely no water. It should be removed from the Compendium.

The evidence from CT is fairly weak ( when Lavos erupts after Omen is destroyed it "looks" like 12000BC   OR   its the most canon path )
But there is something from CC that seems to support a pre-1999AD demise of Lavos:

~~~~ -- LAVOS -- ~~~~
   ~
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   An extraterrestrial life-form
   that is thought to have
   fallen from the heavens
   65 million years ago.
   On the time line that existed
   before history was changed,
   Lavos was assumed to have
   slept deep below the planet's
   surface...
   Sleeping and consuming the
   planet's energy up until the
   day of destruction known as
   the '"Apocalypse."'
   There are those who believe
   that, 12 thousand years ago,
   the legendary ancient magical
   civilization known as Zeal
   came into contact with Lavos.
   That fateful encounter is
   said to have resulted in
   Zeal disappearing from the
   surface of the planet within
   the space of a single night.
   However, the very existence
   of the ancient civilization
   of Zeal has never been proven,
   so up till this day this
   theory cannot be confirmed.
   On some time lines, Lavos
   appeared on the surface of
   the planet in the year 1999
   and brought the world to
   ruins.   However, a group of young
   time travelers saw where
   their planet's history was
   heading and, through their
   actions, rewrote time.
   This very research facility
   exists on that new time line...
   In a world where, thanks to
   the defeat of Lavos by the
   young adventurers, the
   Apocalypse never happened...
   On a temporal vector where
   human civilization continued
   to evolve unhampered.
   All the data on Lavos that was
   obtained from tracing different
   parallel world possibilities
   has proven to be volatile, with
   fluctuating discrepencies.
   Perhaps, at this point in time,
   it is nearly impossible to
   obtain any true information
   about Lavos.

This gives off the impression that Lavos simply did not appear in 1999AD AT ALL.  But it doesn't directly say it.
Apparently CC's translation from Japanese is supposed to be excellent and very reliable - but perhaps this portion should be reexamined in the original Japanese.

[chrono eric]

Yes, I believe that was why the Compendium supports a 12,000 BC defeat of Lavos. I always interpreted the first bolded portion to mean that Lavos did indeed appear, but did not bring the world to ruins in "some timelines". But Lavos' appearance would be covered by TTI. If the Compedium supports TTI theory, they can't have it both ways.

[Eske]

Yes, I believe that was why the Compendium supports a 12,000 BC defeat of Lavos. I always interpreted the first bolded portion to mean that Lavos did indeed appear, but did not bring the world to ruins in "some timelines". But Lavos' appearance would be covered by TTI. If the Compedium supports TTI theory, they can't have it both ways.

Correct.  That is what the line literally says.  The Compendium takes the implications of its absence in 1999AD into account.  But lets look at the rest of the paragraph.

Before the line "This very facility..." the piece is focused directly on Lavos and isn't "personal"  (I don't know anything about the titles of writing styles or whatever).

So the line

 "On some time lines, Lavos
   appeared on the surface of
   the planet in the year 1999
   and brought the world to
   ruins."

has no bearing on whether or not he appeared in the timeline containing Chronopolis.   It's centered on Lavos relative to everything, not just their reality.

So I don't really see it as evidence, or at least not strong evidence, that Lavos was defeated before 1999AD.

[chrono eric]

That makes sense, I didn't think about it that way. Another compendium theory thrown out the window then, I say.

Good thing TB, TTI, and Time Error are still left in good standing  .