Author Topic: I'm curious...  (Read 14004 times)

nightmare975

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2008, 06:58:27 pm »
Zeality why must you always use that picture?
It's funny to me, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't help your argument in the eyes of the opposing poster.

He's pointing out the ignorance in the poster.

ZeaLitY

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2008, 07:09:08 pm »
There's no real use in arguing with him. Everyone else here knows that 1) the planet had a part in Project Kid, 2) the planet is stated to "dream" in both CT and CC's final chapters, 3) that Lavos could create the Gates in a manner that allows him to be conveniently defeated requires stupidly ludicrous chance, etc., etc.

Trixter

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2008, 08:00:44 pm »
There's no real use in arguing with him. Everyone else here knows that 1) the planet had a part in Project Kid, 2) the planet is stated to "dream" in both CT and CC's final chapters, 3) that Lavos could create the Gates in a manner that allows him to be conveniently defeated requires stupidly ludicrous chance, etc., etc.

Lavos would only have to create ONE gate in order to be defeated, the gate to 1999.  There's no reason for a whole multitude of gates.  And I didn't mean Lavos purposefully created the gates.  I said that the gates were created because of Lavos' prescence.

And this whole time I haven't seen any of you prove to me that there's an Entity.  All anyone's done is say that there's this mysterious Entity out there.  No one seems to be able to prove it.

nightmare975

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2008, 08:16:24 pm »
And this whole time I haven't seen any of you prove to me that there's an Entity.  All anyone's done is say that there's this mysterious Entity out there.  No one seems to be able to prove it.

Prove to me God exists and I'll prove to you the Entity exists.

Trixter

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2008, 08:26:05 pm »
And this whole time I haven't seen any of you prove to me that there's an Entity.  All anyone's done is say that there's this mysterious Entity out there.  No one seems to be able to prove it.

Prove to me God exists and I'll prove to you the Entity exists.

Oh yea, because that has a lot to do with what we're talking about doesn't it?  That was probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  This is a discussion about the plot of a game, not a religious debate.  And by the way, I've read the Encyclopedia entry on this site about the Entity and I don't buy it.  So if anyone's going to use that as proof of the Entity's existence forget about it.

FaustWolf

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2008, 08:33:17 pm »
Trixter seeks irrefutable proof, and rightfully so. That proof should come in Masato Kato's own words. Um...where was that entry again? I'm having trouble digging it up, but I do seem to recall Kato said somewhere that the planet itself is the Entity, and therefore the Entity's existence is not simply wild speculation on the part of Crono's friends during that campfire scene.

EDIT: Hmm, the closest thing I can find is this promotional cigarette lighter.  :P

http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/7b/Mc-lighter2.jpg

I think that's the evidence that finally convinced me that the Entity is, indeed, the planet itself as opposed to a monotheistic God. Not sure if that helps Trixter any. Ahh, truth inscribed on a cigarette lighter. Anyone know if Kato explicitly explained the Entity anywhere? Perhaps it's in one of those documents that still need translations...

But I must say, the Entity's existence is what makes everything in the Chrono series "click" IMO. Its existence is clearly implied on that lighter; the planet's "dream" relates to what was said in the campfire scene in CT. My cultural perspective makes me uncomfortable with nature itself having a "consciousness," but I think that's what Kato was definitely aiming for. I suppose I get around the "planet has a consciousness" thing by factoring the Nu into the equation as a collective spiritual presence wrapped around the planet, reminiscent of the Lifestream. After all, "all life begins with Nu and all life ends with Nu..." It's almost as if the Nu are avatars for souls waiting to be incarnated or reincarnated. Bah, too much study of Hinduism...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 09:04:48 pm by FaustWolf »

Glennleo

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2008, 12:05:54 am »
Zeality why must you always use that picture?
It's funny to me, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't help your argument in the eyes of the opposing poster.

He's pointing out the ignorance in the poster.

I know what it means, but the poster doesn't. If anything it would just infuriate him even more to continue his argument as is. I was just giving Zeality a hard time is all. Just for the fun of it.

Trixter

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2008, 02:01:12 am »
Trixter seeks irrefutable proof, and rightfully so. That proof should come in Masato Kato's own words. Um...where was that entry again? I'm having trouble digging it up, but I do seem to recall Kato said somewhere that the planet itself is the Entity, and therefore the Entity's existence is not simply wild speculation on the part of Crono's friends during that campfire scene.

EDIT: Hmm, the closest thing I can find is this promotional cigarette lighter.  :P

http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/7b/Mc-lighter2.jpg

I think that's the evidence that finally convinced me that the Entity is, indeed, the planet itself as opposed to a monotheistic God. Not sure if that helps Trixter any. Ahh, truth inscribed on a cigarette lighter. Anyone know if Kato explicitly explained the Entity anywhere? Perhaps it's in one of those documents that still need translations...

But I must say, the Entity's existence is what makes everything in the Chrono series "click" IMO. Its existence is clearly implied on that lighter; the planet's "dream" relates to what was said in the campfire scene in CT. My cultural perspective makes me uncomfortable with nature itself having a "consciousness," but I think that's what Kato was definitely aiming for. I suppose I get around the "planet has a consciousness" thing by factoring the Nu into the equation as a collective spiritual presence wrapped around the planet, reminiscent of the Lifestream. After all, "all life begins with Nu and all life ends with Nu..." It's almost as if the Nu are avatars for souls waiting to be incarnated or reincarnated. Bah, too much study of Hinduism...


Finally.  An intelligent answer.  I can agree with what this guy has to say.  Althought the only thing that would convince me about the Entity is a direct statement from Masato Kato.  That lighter doesn't do it for me either.  Why can't "the planet" be the people of the planet?  Why does it HAVE to be the planet itself?

And YES the picture of that guy from Star Trek did infuriate me (well maybe not infuriate).  I hate Star Trek.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2008, 05:08:27 am »
Trixter seeks irrefutable proof, and rightfully so. That proof should come in Masato Kato's own words. Um...where was that entry again? I'm having trouble digging it up, but I do seem to recall Kato said somewhere that the planet itself is the Entity, and therefore the Entity's existence is not simply wild speculation on the part of Crono's friends during that campfire scene.

EDIT: Hmm, the closest thing I can find is this promotional cigarette lighter.  :P

http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/7b/Mc-lighter2.jpg

I think that's the evidence that finally convinced me that the Entity is, indeed, the planet itself as opposed to a monotheistic God. Not sure if that helps Trixter any. Ahh, truth inscribed on a cigarette lighter. Anyone know if Kato explicitly explained the Entity anywhere? Perhaps it's in one of those documents that still need translations...

But I must say, the Entity's existence is what makes everything in the Chrono series "click" IMO. Its existence is clearly implied on that lighter; the planet's "dream" relates to what was said in the campfire scene in CT. My cultural perspective makes me uncomfortable with nature itself having a "consciousness," but I think that's what Kato was definitely aiming for. I suppose I get around the "planet has a consciousness" thing by factoring the Nu into the equation as a collective spiritual presence wrapped around the planet, reminiscent of the Lifestream. After all, "all life begins with Nu and all life ends with Nu..." It's almost as if the Nu are avatars for souls waiting to be incarnated or reincarnated. Bah, too much study of Hinduism...


Finally.  An intelligent answer.  I can agree with what this guy has to say.  Althought the only thing that would convince me about the Entity is a direct statement from Masato Kato.  That lighter doesn't do it for me either.  Why can't "the planet" be the people of the planet?  Why does it HAVE to be the planet itself?

And YES the picture of that guy from Star Trek did infuriate me (well maybe not infuriate).  I hate Star Trek.

Read the first part; the cover of the lighter:

Quote
The dream our planet once had
Defeated the darkness
And brought forth a brighter future
However this was also the dawn of
A new nightmare

This clearly refers to the events of Chrono Trigger, which were unknown to an overwhelming majority of the people to have ever lived. It couldn't have been the dream of the people on the planet; it was utterly beyond the scope of their knowledge. It wouldn't make sense for that to refer to the people of the planet, and if it was meant as a reference to our heroes (and the other people of knowledge who aided them on their way) it would have refered to a small group of heroes, since it's absurd to use "the planet" to refer to "a dozen people".

The only sensible way to interpret that is to say that the planet refers to the conciousness of the planet itself.

Chrono'99

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2008, 06:47:08 am »
The text on the lighter originally came from the Chrono Cross instruction booklet, so it's not a random blurb.

In any case, Masato Kato never had to "confirm" that the planet was the Entity, since the Japanese version of CT was pretty much clear about it and there never was any mystery to begin with. Compare with Janus: do you need Kato to confirm that he's really a young Magus? No, it's never really directly stated word for word in CT (no "I am Janus"), but it's implied and sort of indirectly stated, so it appears pretty much obvious.

Translator Ted Woolsey was the one who made things more complicated than they were by creating a specific name, "Entity" (with a capital E), even though the Japanese version only spoke about dareka (someone, something, etc.) and the planet.

Some people out of Japan find it curious that CC never tells us much more about the Entity. But in fact, CC had a better translation than CT as Richard Honeywood was directly assisted by Masato Kato. So, that's why it never uses the name "Entity" (although it does use the generic terms "entity" and "entities", presumably as simple vocabulary tributes); it just speaks about the planet, and people sometimes don't realize that it's the very same thing as the CT "Entity".
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 06:49:02 am by Chrono'99 »

nightmare975

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2008, 03:04:56 pm »
And this whole time I haven't seen any of you prove to me that there's an Entity.  All anyone's done is say that there's this mysterious Entity out there.  No one seems to be able to prove it.

Prove to me God exists and I'll prove to you the Entity exists.

Oh yea, because that has a lot to do with what we're talking about doesn't it?  That was probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  This is a discussion about the plot of a game, not a religious debate.  And by the way, I've read the Encyclopedia entry on this site about the Entity and I don't buy it.  So if anyone's going to use that as proof of the Entity's existence forget about it.

The point of it was people believe in God, but we have no proof that God exists. Chrono and company believe the Entity exists, but there isn't any proof.

But now that I look at you, I just see another Troll.

Korro

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2008, 04:05:26 pm »
I beleive in god. I mean really, I looked up that quantum mechanics stuff.
Doesn't really make sense to me at all. :(

I think there is an entity. I mean, it was said in the game that there is. So it must be. Plus, I agree with the theory that the entity is the spirit of the earth rather than a diety figure.

V_Translanka

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2008, 06:58:53 pm »
Well, as for THE ACTUAL TOPIC...

Marle is simply wearing the Pendant, perhaps it requires real, physical contact with the Dreamstone artifact itself, not just, y'know, w/e the necklace-part is made of so that Crono holds on tight, he's actually gripping the Pendant itself...then again, maybe it was all chance and it has a faulty clasp or something...I mean, HOW old is that damn thing? lol

Anyways...as for the Entity...

One thing that doesn't make sense about the Lavos theory is the Red Gate. There is no Lavos interaction at that point, certainly and the same can be said about several of the other gates. Even the gate that appears at his initial crash site doesn't make a whole lot of sense for that idea...I mean it just happens to appear right on the EDGE of the crater? Right there for Crono & Co to find? It might also be necessary to explain the gate on Mystic Mountain, which is there BEFORE LAVOS ARRIVES! And to just throw out Robo saying that after 400 Years of thinking he doesn't believe Lavos is responsible for the gates, as if it's just a technicality that the writers threw in for no good reason is just the most flippant sort of response you can make. etc.

EDIT: Lookit me! Contributing to something that should be in the Analysis thread! It's been so long...go fig it's one of the OLDEST TOPICS IN THE COMPENDIUM HISTORY...V_V

Trixter

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2008, 01:43:18 am »
<B>It might also be necessary to explain the gate on Mystic Mountain, which is there BEFORE LAVOS ARRIVES!</B>

Good point.  This is something I didn't think about.  I can admit when I'm wrong.
But, I still don't buy what Zeality said in the 2nd post of this Topic.  The Entity is not the reason Marle's pendant stayed behind.  Crono probably had a good grip on it.

V_Translanka

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Re: I'm curious...
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2008, 05:05:28 pm »
I think it's easy to fall back on the Entity theory for stuff like that because of Marle's disappearance which is so highly attributed to the Entity's intervention (say that five times fast!)...But I like to think that the Entity only steps into it very lightly, trying not to give away it's presence...but w/e...with things like Masa & Mune...it's all up for interpretation, I suppose...