Author Topic: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"  (Read 1774 times)

jirbytaylor

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There are three things I want to touch upon after reading this article, which I apologize If I've missed out certain things.

First, this quote:
"Specifically, during the new Ocean Palace Incident, Melchior and Janus are safe in Last Village. Recall that originally, Melchior and Janus were dispatched to 1000 A.D. and 600 A.D. respectively by temporal distortions."

"Last Village" is the "town" after the Ocean Palace rises to become the Black Omen, there is no Melchior or Janus to be found. I believe the original surface town was actually called "Algetty", or "Terra Cave".
Because of this, I beilieve the pair somehow ended back in the Ocean Palace - possibly because Janus was worried for Schala - and they were, as originally occoured - pulled into their timelines first found.
Why or how they ended up there is probably irrelevant.

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The Time Bastard, I believe I may have a more simple explanation as to how gazillions of Cronos aren't wandering around 600AD .The idea that versions of oneself may get replaced sounds odd to me.
Think of it, as a Time Train.

Here is how the time train works - as the hours pass in a day - so does the point in time in which the Gates lead to. If one gate lead between 5PM in 600AD and 11AM in 1000AD, spending an hour in 600AD will change that gate to 6PM-Midday, another hour, 7PM-1AM.
The Epoch can most likely work around this - but the game makes it follow the gate format simply because it's easier to program than being able to watch little overworld parties from the Epoch in the air...
This Time Train also gives Gaurdia's royal army enough time to drag the dazzed Marle to the Queen's servants to be dressed into a gown - in my opinion she has only been "Queen" for about a hour or so - who knows what the scale is for CT's overworld - with the distance Crono has to walk in mind she may be getting dressed by the time Crono has left True Canyon.

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Next the Time Crash - it pulled back Chronopolis to the OP Incident (I think?), was there any evidence of this in Chrono Trigger? If the Time Crash occoured in 12000BC - thus disposing both original futures as shown in this diagram:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Image:Dimension_chart_rev1.png.html
... how is it that Lavos is still defeated - and become the Time Devourer? Was it defeated at all when the Time Crash occoured - did it merely leap for Schala as it fell into the DBT?
Is this merely a mistake in the diagram? Was Lavos defeated in 12000BC or 1999AD? I recall it being mentioned that Chrono Cross refers Lavos being defeated in 12000BC.
With the Time Crash, was the pulling of Chronopolis - or the ruined future to 12000BC - the reason those places were there in the Sea of Eden - more specifically have those places been sitting in the Sea of Eden for thousands of years - up to 1020AD?

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Lastly - my get around for the paradoxes relating to vanishing relatives and so on, is that the characters return to their timelines at the end of the game - nobody vanishes forever. However the issue with Marle vanishing in front of Crono is interesting - and may just be a goof in the story mechanics that works as a catalyst to get the player moving.

I've tried to make this as easy to understand as possible, and tried not to sound like a complete idiot.
Ask any questions, give opinions and whatnot. ^^

Chronocidal Guy

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2008, 07:01:46 am »
Well, after just finishing the game for the first time, I had to dive into the discussion. :)

I have to agree with your time train idea, since once you enter a gate, time seems to run roughly continuously and parallel in all the different eras (save for the End of Time, since there's nothing there to gauge the passage of time with).  Really, now that I think about it, the Epoch works more like a fast-forward/rewind machine... you're not going to a specific year so much as adding and subtracting specific amounts of time to and from the current date, whatever era you happen to be in.  Time still goes on while you're in other times, so you don't always enter an era at the same time (or place), and you also don't enter at the moment that you last left that time.

After thinking a little about this, I think this may also have implications for finding a way to explain the Marle issue.  It's not completely fleshed out, but I'm starting to think of changes in history as ripples more than anything else.  I think this works for a few issues, but it might cause more problems than solutions.

Edit: okay, after typing for about an hour trying to make sense of my own idea, I'm cutting off at this point before I ramble about incomplete thoughts.  The ripple idea works in a couple cases, but brings up more isses than it solves.  Rather than post random ideas here, I'll see if I can make it coherent before subjecting the public to it.  Suffice to say it's made my brain hurt already, and I wonder how I'll get to sleep now. :?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 10:51:06 pm »
Time Train?

I like that.  I always wanted a name for that concept...  and now I have one!

jirbytaylor

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 08:03:13 pm »
@Chronocidal Guy
Are you saying that these ripples must "reach" Marle before they erase her?

Here is a thought that has just occoured to me,
Also why is it that Marle disappears, when Leene is still alive?

Sorry for the bump, I just remembered I posted here after not getting replies for a while...

MagilsugaM

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 09:32:59 pm »
Because she born in 1000ad and Lenne already died in 1000ad  :o

BROJ

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 11:45:36 pm »
Because she born in 1000ad and Lenne already died in 1000ad  :o
Now, now MagilsugaM; be nice...   :lol:

MagilsugaM

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 11:54:08 pm »
May I said that she was already killed by yakra in 1000AD

Anacalius

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 12:47:14 am »
Honestly, I don't think there is any explanation for the dissapearance of Marle. I think it was just either Square not thinking fully or not thinking that people would think fully.

I'm making a hack and I've already replaced the part where she dissapears, she doesn't in mine. =P

MagilsugaM

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 01:08:04 am »
yes because if this happen she must dissapear when she return to 1000AD

Anacalius

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2008, 03:35:49 am »
yes because if this happen she must dissapear when she return to 1000AD

Actually, I think it presents more faults than that.
A: If Queen Leene dies, she can't be born, so she can't come back to the past to interfere, so then Queen Leene wouldn't die, which means Marle would be born, which means she would come back to the past and interfere... Whoa...
B: Why does she dissappear anyway? Queen Leene is still alive, you SAVE her from Yakra! So therefore, it doesn't make any sense at all. o.O

Thought

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2008, 06:06:09 pm »
B: Why does she dissappear anyway? Queen Leene is still alive, you SAVE her from Yakra! So therefore, it doesn't make any sense at all. o.O

Presumably because Marle's future wasn't contingent on Leene's literal life or death. Something else must have had that effect (my thoughts are that Frog decided to elope with Leene, but that is just me).

jirbytaylor

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Re: Thoughts after reading "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel"
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2008, 11:48:58 pm »
yes because if this happen she must dissapear when she return to 1000AD

Actually, I think it presents more faults than that.
A: If Queen Leene dies, she can't be born, so she can't come back to the past to interfere, so then Queen Leene wouldn't die, which means Marle would be born, which means she would come back to the past and interfere... Whoa...
B: Why does she dissappear anyway? Queen Leene is still alive, you SAVE her from Yakra! So therefore, it doesn't make any sense at all. o.O
Yep, that is just what I am meaning.

@Thought:
Maybe 600AD's Leene isn't a descendant(wait, wrong word...) of Marle, but the King is. :o We have a bit of an affair here~

But seriously:
I'm still thinking along the lines of just giving the player a reason to go through a dungeon though, and touch on the fact the player is back in time. But that just doesn't really seem like the best thing to say in such a huge article.
"Oh this causes this and that happens because of this being replaced by that, and Marle vanishes because the writers just needed to include at least one paradox in a story about time travel." :B