About the Masamune.

[placidchap]

I hate what this thread's become btw.

Agreed.  Let's get back on track and talk about Mumm-Ra, the Ever-Living, traveling through the multiverse (cross-refrencing another thread comment by Boo), finds the Masamune, but thought it was the Sword of Plun-Darr, touched it but then realized it was not what he was looking for so he left.  Which explains the evil Masamune.  Anyone...? No?  hmm.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

i mean, mumm-ra (or even mutt-ra) could've done it in the "dogs of war" arc that occurred after the cartoon ended (this was in the comics).  i mean, he is a super-undead-warlock, so it's permissible that he could create a gateway to other realities.

i think this was kato's thoughts all along and knew we would make the connection.

[placidchap]

And the pretty bow on top, is that Kato has a name right next to Lion-o, Panthero and Lynx-O.  The evidence was there all along.

[Radical_Dreamer]

I hate what this thread's become btw.

Agreed.  Let's get back on track and talk about Mumm-Ra, the Ever-Living, traveling through the multiverse (cross-refrencing another thread comment by Boo), finds the Masamune, but thought it was the Sword of Plun-Darr, touched it but then realized it was not what he was looking for so he left.  Which explains the evil Masamune.  Anyone...? No?  hmm.

Let's get back on track and talk about the Masamune. This is the Analysis forum, after all.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

i was wondering when the forum police would come around!

EDIT FROM THE FORUM POLICE: This isn't back on track! Try & keep your general wonderings to a more sociable forum section. The analysis forums are for just that: analysis.

[Thought]

Analyzing things in the Analysis forum? Well, that is highly unorthodox, but if you insist...

Hmm... So, if I am recalling correctly, in Radical Dreamers the Acacia Dragoons were stationed at Viper Manor, which over saw Gerzbuehle, which as best as anyone can figure out (especially given that Kato seems to have conceived of these locations without an eye towards Chrono Continuity) around the Denadoro Mts. Now we already know that in Chrono Cross Kato drew on Radical Dreamers for some themes, characters, and locations. Therefore, we might find some significance in the closeness of the Denadoro Mts and Radical Dreamer's Viper Manor.

That is, at the end of Chrono Trigger Guardia was overthrown and the Masamune was placed back at the Denadoro Mts, which possibly then indicates that the Masamune was placed at Denadoro specifically for the Acacia Dragoons to find. By Radius and Garai finding it, the Masamune was then transported to El Nido, where it played an important role in the events of Chrono Cross.

Therefore, given its significance to Chrono Cross, it is well within reason to suppose that the Masamune was meant to be placed at Denadoro, and the Acacia Dragoons were meant to find it, and they were meant to take it to El Nido. Which, in turn, then means that the Masamune was meant to be corrupted. Additionally, given how convoluted Project Kid was, it is quite possible that Belthasar was the one who orchestrated the Masamune's return to the Denadoro Mts and its corruption. This is supported by the oddity that the Masamune survived corruption for over 12,600 years; why would Masa and Mune just happen to fall asleep then and allow it to be corrupted? And if we assume that an external force was needed to cause this occurrence, who better to corrupt the weapon than an individual who is on par with the weapon's creator?

Further speculation: the names "Denadora" and "Doreen" are vaguely similar. Coincidence? I think so. But I could be wrong.

Yet more speculation: the Masamune and the Einlanzer have a relationship similar to that of Masamune and Muramasa (the people, not the "weapons") and their infamous (and probably mythical) competition. Except in that story, Masamune's blade was the "holy" one, while Muramasa's blade was evil and bloodthirsty. Now, the Chrono Trigger Masamune is the result of an odd English translation, but the similarities between the swords and the myth still seems apt.

[V_Translanka]

Yeah, I've always sided w/the idea that the Masamune was intentionally placed in Denadoro Mts for the express purpose of the events that followed...though I used to think that it was Lynx that perpetrated said placement...*shrugs* Like I've said before, CC wasn't my analysis strong-point *heh heh*

But, also, I don't think it's definate that we can say that Guardia was completely 'overthrown'...I mean, I don't think we're told enough to verify this anyways.

Doreen is actually closer in sound to Dorino, isn't it? The town right next to the Denadoro Mountains? Well, anyways, I think it's mostly irrelevant since her name in Japanese is simply Dream. Nice enough idea though.

The Einlanzer's been said to be made specifically to combat the evil of the Masamune though, right?...Which makes me wonder what it's made of & why the Dragonians made it in the first place...

[Thought]

Wasn't the Masamune found before Lynx was under the control of FATE though?

Regardless, it is indeed a very unusual event. I don't think we can take its placement there or its corruption as mere happenstance.

And aye, I'd agree that it isn't definate that Guardia was completely overthrown. But that brings in another question; we know that Porre's rise to power was the result of an out-of-time influence. If Belthasar wanted to get the Masamune, place it at Denadoro, and corrupt it, he could well be that influence then.

Hmm... was Dorino still "Dorino" in the Japanese version? It wasn't Dreemo or anything like that? After all, it is a city that disappears like a dream upon waking

But was the Einlanzer made to combat the evil of the Masamune? I thought the dragonians were extinct by 1000 (and thus, certainly extinct before the Masamune was corrupted... unless this was also orchestrated by Belthasar and he had the weapon forged knowing that the Masamune would then become corrupted).

As for what it is made of, I like to think it is the exact same piece of dreamstone (but from a different dimension) as the masamune. Of course, there is absolutely no evidence, or hints of evidence, to indicate such.

[ZealKnight]

The Einlanzer's been said to be made specifically to combat the evil of the Masamune though, right?...Which makes me wonder what it's made of & why the Dragonians made it in the first place...

I don't think it was made to combat the Masamune, in fact i think it was the Masamune of the dragonians. You know because they made it in the time line without Lavos.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

yeah, i'm in agreement with zeal knight.  i think the einlanzer is just that universe's version of the masamune.

and in reference to the masamune surviving corruption for 12,600 or so years...  that may not be true.  after all, thats a lot of history we DON'T know...

[Thought]

True, the sword could have been corrupted before, but then that begs the question of why it just happened to be pure when Chrono and Co found it.

[placidchap]

True, the sword could have been corrupted before, but then that begs the question of why it just happened to be pure when Chrono and Co found it.

I don't think it begs much of a question...Chance is most probable.  Things don't always have to have a purpose.  At least, that is what I think.

[V_Translanka]

Wasn't the Masamune found before Lynx was under the control of FATE though?

Yeah, there's actually more that makes it so that Lynx couldn't have been the one to do it at that time...that's why I said I used to think that...

[Thought]

I don't think it begs much of a question...Chance is most probable.  Things don't always have to have a purpose.  At least, that is what I think.

Well I suppose that depends on how we view human nature (and the nature of the Masamune's corruption). Let us assume there are three types of people that could potentially hold the masamune: A good person, a neutral person, and an evil person (this is not taking into account the sort of individual who could pass masa&mune's tests). Therefore, at least there is a 33% chance that the sword could be purified, corrupted, or remain unchanged whenever the sword is found. However, as displayed in Chrono Cross, the sword is quite capable of corrupting what we might term as "relatively good" people. Therefore, there is a less than 33% chance that the sword could be purified at any given instance. Thus we can claim that at any given instance, it is more likely for the masamune to be corrupted than to not be.

Keep in mind that throughout the series we see the sword being held by 4 (or 5) different individuals: Cyrus, who couldn’t use its full power apparently, Frog who had to master himself before he could do so, Radius who was corrupted, and Dario who was corrupted. Therefore, from that we could conclude that there is only a 25% chance that the sword could be purified (if we assume Frog had the strength of character to do so).

Events that go against probability don't necessitate an active consciousness behind them; however they are suspect of such a consciousness.

And if we assume that corruption and purification are dependent on outside influences (such as Doreen), then we are already taking into consideration a degree of consciousness and then it is deliberate if the sword is corrupted or purified.

Statistically speaking, then, it is more likely that there was a conscious agent behind the corruption of the masamune than that it was by happenstance.

[ZealKnight]

I don't know much but I'm going to side with the compendium's theory and say Dalton did corrupted it because The only thing missing in that theory is evidence other than that it seems very possible.