Unimportant, but are there two Belthasars?

[Thought]

Just a curiosity, but as in Chrono Cross numerous people have duplicantes (between Home World and Another World), would Belthasar also have a double? On one hand, there would be the "Sea of Eden" Belthasar, the one would we presumably see in the game and who is the driving force behind Project Kid. On the other hand, would the ruined future then have a "Dead Sea" Belthasar, who would presumably be the same (or similar) to the one seen in CT. Presumably not only the present but the future was dimensionally split.

After all, Belthasar was sent into the future before the dimensional split. But that would require that essentially one Guru of Reason would enter Lavos' portal and two would exit, which seems a bit nonsensical.

[ZeaLitY]

You know, I don't think past to future time traveling concerning dimensions has been addressed yet. Armageddon Branch relied on the assumption that All the Time Traveler's Immunity of Another World (the original dimension) was stuck in Another World and didn't carry to Home World, but all the historical past did, or else we wouldn't have the same version of Porre that came about in 1005 A.D. (So, Crono would still appear when he did in 12000 B.C. or 65000000 B.C. The idea is that the homogeneity only extends backwards, so without future TTI and with an uncertain future, Home World is effectively Lavos's to destroy again, and that's how we see the Dead Sea.

Armageddon Branch was disposed of in light of some Pocket Dimension technicality, but now that the Pocket Dimension theory might be totally dismissed, it may yet be revived. Under that idea, there would be no Belthasar of Home World.

Still, the "no TTI, but preserved history" is a sticky concept. It'd be like "here, yeah, Crono still shows up, but only once as part of a static history; if you change things earlier, none of this happens." Those who traveled before the dimensional split on a scale of Time Error would only have TTI in Another World, except they would tentatively be preserved in the carbon copy in Home World's history up to 1010 A.D., and no further. I'd like Chrono'99 to comment.

[Thought]

I am not sure I understand Armageddon-Branch (my knowledge of it comes only from the Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Article, but it appears that there is more to the theory than just what is presented there). To my understanding, such a theory basically states that in 1000 AD there is only one dimension, so only one Crono time travels and saves the future. But in 1010 there become two dimensions, thus the singular Crono only saves one of those dimensions. Is that correct?

Such a theory seems impossible, as the dimensional split should have also split 1000 AD, creating two Cronos who could both time travel and save their respective dimension's futures. Unless, of course, we look at the two dimensions as not being strictly parallel to each other but more of a Y shape; different futures but a common past (thus the dimensions are like a tree; after 1010 there are two branches but they share the same trunk).

[placidchap]

I believe that is the theory, the y shape that is.  One common past, branching off at a point in time...

[ZeaLitY]

The theory hinges on the idea that Crono traveled through time to defeat Lavos in the future (which is important) when Time Error was at 3 o'clock PM, and the dimensions split on Time Error of 4 o'clock PM.

The real problem is, Crono's actions in the past are preserved in Home World (or else we wouldn't have an identical Porre), so why aren't his actions in the future preserved? One has to end up saying well, Home copied Another's history, but nothing gets TTI anymore, so from the perspective of 1020 A.D., there is no Crono who will assuredly come out in the future. The past is preserved, but no TTI means no assurance that the future will happen the same way.

So the discussion's morphed into a question of whether TTI is preserved in Home World once it splits, or the nature of Home's history.

[Thought]

As revealed in another thread, my understanding of TTI isn't perfect, but might it be possible that an action is both preserved and modifed?

Putting the question of dimensions aside for a moment, let us say that Crono and Co defeat Lavos in 1999AD. That action gets TTI (Time Error 3pm). Now Time Traveler Bob also warps to 1999 AD (Time Error 3:01pm) to the battle between Lavos and Crono. He proceeds to stand right in front of Crono. Since Crono's actions are protected by TTI, would Crono then essentially ignore Bob and behave as if he wasn't there? Or might Crono then be able to react to Bob? If Crono could react, then wouldn't Bob have modifed Crono's action? And if Crono couldn't react to Bob, that seems like an odd form of "predesination" (which is generally against the underlying principles of the game).

If so, then even in Home World Crono's actions may be preserved via TTI but there would then be an event that negates the effect of those actions (but not the actions themsevles).

Though I think the question of two Belthasars is still interesting (especially if there is a Y shaped dimensional split; Belthasar from Another World and Belthasar from Home World could both travel back to 1000 AD and meet eachother). Yet if there is only one Belthasar, would that then mean that he took could shift between dimensions like Serge?

[BROJ]

Putting the question of dimensions aside for a moment, let us say that Crono and Co defeat Lavos in 1999AD. That action gets TTI (Time Error 3pm). Now Time Traveler Bob also warps to 1999 AD (Time Error 3:01pm) to the battle between Lavos and Crono. He proceeds to stand right in front of Crono. Since Crono's actions are protected by TTI, would Crono then essentially ignore Bob and behave as if he wasn't there? Or might Crono then be able to react to Bob? If Crono could react, then wouldn't Bob have modifed Crono's action? And if Crono couldn't react to Bob, that seems like an odd form of "predesination" (which is generally against the underlying principles of the game).

From my understanding based on a hybrid of this forum's theories and mine, his (Cronos's) arrival is protected but not his actions, if his actions were protected then changing time itself would be impossible or at least pointless as you wouldn't inherently be able to change anyone's actions as per that assumption. By the way, the accepted "good, true" ending is at 12000 BC, even though its nearly impossible to beat the first time through.

If so, then even in Home World Crono's actions may be preserved via TTI but there would then be an event that negates the effect of those actions (but not the actions themsevles).

A combination of things probably happened to cause time to "break" nullifying Cronos actions in saving the world. As per my understanding of the game it could be a number of variables that caused the "split" and crono's actions to be nullified; the disappearance of TEOT and reappearance in Another World on the island that causes the screen distortion when you enter, which inherently means it's not where it's supposed to be, the Time Crash which also has things where they're not supposed to be, Serge's survival/death, Lavos's entry into TDBT, and even Belthazars existence/non-existence. He {version 2 in Home World} probably died in the destruction of Chronopolis in the dead sea, while Belthazar {Version 1 in Another World} observed the dimensional anomaly occurring {how, I don't know} and traveled to Home World to meet the existence that caused the split {Serge} as FATE determined and brought along a modified time egg {astral amulet} that allowed phasing between the Angeles Aurore {i think thats how its spelled; a 5^th dimensional split.}, made sure Serge received it, and left a message in the ruins of the Dead Sea to set in motion the events where Serge would fight the Time Devourer.]  The theory of Belthazar's actions was of course, only theory, and all of these things could leave time in a "mess" and could cause there to be multiple 5^th dimensions or timelines at once. Walking back into "pure" theory TEOT probably had something to do with the absorption of obsolete timeliness into TDBT. And this is really going into theory; Schala, merged with Lavos at this point, probably, warped TEOT, which was probably a barrier or membrane of TDBT, to Another World, allowing Lavos to freely enter TDBT and devour time, or in my opinion, he is actually devouring the entity which *is* TDBT, TEOT, and time itself pertaining to the planet, again this is pure speculation, so don't attack me.

Though I think the question of two Belthasars is still interesting (especially if there is a Y shaped dimensional split; Belthasar from Another World and Belthasar from Home World could both travel back to 1000 AD and meet eachother). Yet if there is only one Belthasar, would that then mean that he took could shift between dimensions like Serge?

I think you're missing the point; the pasts are identical, but not the same. Although it is not explicitly said in-game, Belthazar probably *could* travel (via a *modified* epoch or some similar device and left a capability for serge to do as well.) or at least he *observed* between the dual timelines.

[Thought]

From my understanding based on a hybrid of this forum's theories and mine, his (Cronos's) arrival is protected but not his actions, if his actions were protected then changing time itself would be impossible or at least pointless as you wouldn't inherently be able to change anyone's actions as per that assumption. By the way, the accepted "good, true" ending is at 12000 BC, even though its nearly impossible to beat the first time through.

Aye, but to my understanding Armageddon Branch requires that Lavos be defeated in 1999 (as if Lavos was defeated in 12000 BC, he should be defeated in both dimensions).

As for changing time, it would be possible if the actions as well as the appearance were utterly protected; but it would only be possible once. That is why I think the question of if both actions and appearance is significant. If both are protected, then we have the problem of how the future could return to post-apoc (thus why it might be indicated that TTI doesn't exist in Home World's future for Crono and Co's actions). Yet if only the appearance is protected, then the future might still have TTI yet be malleable.

This posses a (very) small problem, however, in that if the actions are malleable then Crono, after the defeat of Lavos, couldn't see a ruined future to start his quest. He would still appear in 2300 AD, but see a happy-lucky-future, not the apocalypse. Thus, if actions are changeable, the start of his quest would change. However, as I said, that is a very small problem because every other appearance of Crono and Co in time would be protected as well (and Crono, as he originally exited the gate, would always exit the gate). Thus even if the future changes, and Crono's actions in the future change, so that he never saw 2300 in a post apoc state, he would still reappear in 1000 AD bent on finding out what Lavos is and destroying it (thus traveling to 600 still, and so forth).

So, then, if actions but not appearance can be changed, and Crono's actions (specifically, his defeat of Lavos) could also be changed (just not his appearance of where-ever Lavos is). This would seemingly indicate that the future of Home World could still have TTI protection for Crono's adventures. This is a somewhat small point (as it still doesn't establish what caused the future to die, again), but it would seemingly resolve the nonsensical nature of supposing that one dimension didn't keep the TTI that the other dimension had.

I think you're missing the point; the pasts are identical, but not the same. Although it is not explicitly said in-game, Belthazar probably *could* travel (via a *modified* epoch or some similar device and left a capability for serge to do as well.) or at least he *observed* between the dual timelines.

That would be true, but only under a different conception of the dimensional split. The pasts are both identical and the same if the dimensions are Y shaped; however, they would be identical but different if the dimensions are H shaped. But let me explain a bit more about each possibility (there are actually 3 likely shapes that two different dimensions can take in relation to each other), and give a very brief rundown of the support for each.

ll Dimensions: This is the standard shape of two dimensions; they never intersect and never meet. Presumably at the start of time they were fragments of reality that, though potentially similar to each other, have a fundamental difference. We are aware of three dimensions that fit this description (thus their shape is more along the lines of "l ll"): The Keystone Dimension, the Reptite Dimension, and the Radical Dreamer Dimension. The Reptite dimension is particularly interesting in that Lavos never fell. This indicates a large-scale difference in that world, far beyond Serge living or dying. Did Lavos "miss" earth? Was he never launched into space? Do the lavoids even exist? There might be fundamental variances in physical laws; perhaps gravity isn't exactly the same as in the Keystone dimension, for example.

H Dimensions: This is the more likely shape of Home World and Another World; at a specific point in time (the crossbar) an event happened to split the dimensions. This split occurred into the future and into the past, creating two wholly separate lines but which share numerous similarities. For all intents and purposes, they may as well be ll dimensions, except that there is that one point where the event happened that links the two. Dimensional travel is more possible here than in ll dimensions. The past is identical, but not the same, while the futures will be reasonably similar but with increasing levels of differences (specifically, only those differences caused by the splitting factor, and reactions to those differences, etc).

Y Dimensions: While more interesting, this is a less likely shape of Home World and Another World. At a specific point in time (the tri-point), an event happened to split the dimensions. This split only occurred into the future; the past for both dimensions is not only identical but the same. A change in the past would presumably affect both dimensions. This does not duplicate without necessity.

The H dimension shape is the more likely of the two given in-game commentary as well as the interesting paradoxes that the Y dimension would create. At Viper Manner Belthasar states that "we are simply unable to see, feel, or experience it," which indicates a complete separation. Doc supplements this with a statement that the two dimensions never cross each other.

However, given that Serge (and thus others) can see, feel, experience, and cross two dimensions, these two instances are not perfect proof (but still rather strong). Certainly, Serge is a fairly rare instance, so perhaps this separation is only absolute when compared to mundane means... yet time travel is not mundane. From interior viewpoints both Home and Another are complete dimensions with a future, present, and past, but from an exterior viewpoint they would share a past.

Yet this brings up the afore mentioned paradoxes; Time Traveler Bill from Home World could travel back to 600 AD; under the Y Dimension, he is in the only version of the past. Time Traveler Bill from Another World back to 600 AD and poof, we have two copies of the same individual. Has matter been created? And if Time Traveler Knighty McKnight traveled from 600 AD to 1100 AD, which dimension would he end up in? Would he magically split in two? Would only one dimension be selected (and if so, how and why)?

Yet there are a few benefits of a Y Dimension. For one, it requires less effort by the universe. Instead of a single action causing two complete dimensions, it only forms two partial dimensions. Additionally, Y dimensions make more sense than H dimensions for the Time Devourer; it could eat the "space time continua" without brining up the possibility of a finite creature consuming an infinite number of dimensions. H dimensions would seemingly indicate a greater power; if the Time Devourer can consume two wholly separate dimensions, then there should be no difference between consuming those and the Reptite Dimension, or the Radical Dreamer Dimension, etc. But if the Time Devourer were to consume Y dimensions, it satisfies Belthasar's remark yet still limits the creature to a very finite number of dimensions (1.5, really). Additionally, a Y Dimension also explains where Home World Kid is during Crono Cross... which is to say, no where since she wouldn't exist (Kid having time traveled to out of the range in which the Dimensional Split was occurring). Even Masato Kato has no real conception of Home World Kid; he guessed that she might be on the Zenan mainland. Additionally, even the paradoxes help support a Y dimension to a small extent; CC indicates that Home World shouldn’t exist, that it is an aberration, yet we know that alternate dimensions can and do exist. Thus, the paradoxes might be why Home World shouldn’t exist (yet still does).

[BROJ]

This posses a (very) small problem, however, in that if the actions are malleable then Crono, after the defeat of Lavos, couldn't see a ruined future to start his quest. He would still appear in 2300 AD, but see a happy-lucky-future, not the apocalypse.

This is not important as the 'original Crono' has TTI (therefore grandfather paradox discussions are moot, at best) and as such, he remembers from the original timeline experiences (e.g. He is a Time Bastard) they are trying to change the future, not be consumed by destiny. Plus the gates and the epoch are obviously operating on some sort of a time progression algorithm so he wouldn't be running into himself anyways.

If both are protected, then we have the problem of how the future could return to post-apoc (thus why it might be indicated that TTI doesn't exist in Home World's future for Crono and Co's actions).

If Lavos truly reached TDBT (meaning he has complete mastery over time and therefore the entity, in my theory) he could *change* time as he saw fit, but only for home world (It could be considered also that home world is the dimension that had failed to be discarded at Lavos's defeat.). Of course this is just speculation.

That would be true, but only under a different conception of the dimensional split. The pasts are both identical and the same if the dimensions are Y shaped; however, they would be identical but different if the dimensions are H shaped. But let me explain a bit more about each possibility (there are actually 3 likely shapes that two different dimensions can take in relation to each other), and give a very brief rundown of the support for each.

Again I think there are a few more misunderstandings; traveling back in time then changing a variable then traveling forward in time, as you previously said about the Belthazar scenario, might be possible for Belthazar, as he obviously has some godly perception of time, but it isn't necessary as he could just fold through the 6^th dimension.
And the part about said dimensions being able to have the same past but not being separate; Every time a choice is made or a variable exists, an infinite number of dimensions will be created based on the changes that occur in the original dimension and unless something constricts the number of possible dimensions at any one time (in this case TDBT) the dimensions will always exist and some will have identical, yet separate pasts.

I see that you also go on to a detailed explanation about dimensional connections, which is well thought out I might add . However, you are only perceiving time in only *2* dimensions (movements and splits, leaving out folds), as when you consider the third time dimension, you discover that you need not have to worry about navigating time on the *lower* time dimensions as you can simply fold through the 6^th dimension and get to the *other* (in this case Another World) dimension by folding through the 6^th dimension fairly easily, relatively speaking anyways. To see proof of my argument watch this video. (If you haven't already seen it already. Especially pay attention to the part about the 4^th, 5^th, and 6^th dimensions.)

[Thought]

This is not important as the 'original Crono' has TTI (therefore grandfather paradox discussions are moot, at best) and as such, he remembers from the original timeline experiences (e.g. He is a Time Bastard) they are trying to change the future, not be consumed by destiny. Plus the gates and the epoch are obviously operating on some sort of a time progression algorithm so he wouldn't be running into himself anyways.

If the discussion is including the possibility that TTI from CT does not apply to Home World (and if the entirety of Home World's history and future is copied from Another World), then it doesn't matter if the "original Crono" (are you talking about the original "Another World" Crono or "Pre-Time Travel" Crono?) has TTI; the non-original Crono might exist in a world where original Crono's TTI doesn't exist, and therefore could be effected by Grandfather paradoxes. Thus why discussion of events factoring in and ignoring TTI are somewhat important.

I suppose this also adds a third subject to just what, exactly, does TTI cover; the appearance, the actions, and the memory of the actions. I think everyone agrees that the appearance is protected; no time traveler, changes to the future/past, or being from the Darkness Beyond Time can prevent Crono and Co from appearing at any given time point as they originally appeared. If the actions that follow that appearance are malleable, then the future of Home World could be changed without violating TTI. Yet would the individual’s knowledge of the events also be protected? This is a bit (but not totally) moot as once Crono and Co leave the future they will appear in the past; that appearance would also be protected by TTI and so what they knew when they originally appeared will be what they always know when they appear at the time. However, the Crono that leaves the future could have his knowledge changed. But being a Time Bastard, he'd be shunted off to the Darkness Beyond Time... except that in a world without original Crono's time traveling having TTI, would this alternate Crono then be shunted off to the DBT?

If Lavos truly reached TDBT (meaning he has complete mastery over time and therefore the entity, in my theory) he could *change* time as he saw fit, but only for home world (It could be considered also that home world is the dimension that had failed to be discarded at Lavos's defeat.). Of course this is just speculation.

When was it indicated that Lavos, as the Time Devourer, would have complete mastery over time? He could consume it, possibly affecting the flow of time as a result, but could he change it according to his slightest whim?

Again I think there are a few more misunderstandings; traveling back in time then changing a variable then traveling forward in time, as you previously said about the Belthazar scenario, might be possible for Belthazar, as he obviously has some godly perception of time, but it isn't necessary as he could just fold through the 6^th dimension.

Quick question; how are you dividing these dimensions up? Admittedly, I generally work from 4 spatial dimensions, but 3 spatial + 1 timeline is also a valid. Thus are your six dimensions length, width, height, time, time-error, and "dimension"? Or perhaps you are combining time and time-error so "dimensions" if a 5th dimension and thus supposing a yet higher dimension? Or is this some other ordering of dimensions (perhaps explained in your video link)? And by fold, are you referring to manifolds?

And the part about said dimensions being able to have the same past but not being separate; Every time a choice is made or a variable exists, an infinite number of dimensions will be created based on the changes that occur in the original dimension and unless something constricts the number of possible dimensions at any one time (in this case TDBT) the dimensions will always exist and some will have identical, yet separate pasts.

That is certainly one interpretation (that dimensions can have identical yet separate pasts), one that I am quite willing to accept, but I am curious as to if you are speaking out of person belief or external evidence that I am just not aware of (or is that in the video you linked to as well)? That is, how do you know that H Dimensions are the reality while Y dimensions are the fantasy?

To see proof of my argument watch this video. (If you haven't already seen it already. Especially pay attention to the part about the 4^th, 5^th, and 6^th dimensions.)

I'll take a look as soon as I am able to devote some time to it, but it looks like that is an argument from String Theory; is that correct? If so... well String Theory has its own problems that makes it less than an ideal point (pun intended) to be arguing from.

[Kebrel]

I find a problem with that video, I have seen it many times. The video implies infinite matter and energy, to work with even though that would cause a few problems for modern physics/chemistry.




Then again there is magic in CT/CC.

[BROJ]

If the discussion is including the possibility that TTI from CT does not apply to Home World (and if the entirety of Home World's history and future is copied from Another World), then it doesn't matter if the "original Crono" (are you talking about the original "Another World" Crono or "Pre-Time Travel" Crono?) has TTI; the non-original Crono might exist in a world where original Crono's TTI doesn't exist, and therefore could be effected by Grandfather paradoxes. Thus why discussion of events factoring in and ignoring TTI are somewhat important.

It isn't, I simply implied that Lavos violated this principle and *changed* time via manipulation of TDBT. Also you are never presented an opportunity to meet "pre-time travel Crono" as the gates and epoch are "smart". (e.g. the connections between time progress through time which also explains why they would dissappear after a while in each time period.)

I suppose this also adds a third subject to just what, exactly, does TTI cover; the appearance, the actions, and the memory of the actions. I think everyone agrees that the appearance is protected; no time traveler, changes to the future/past, or being from the Darkness Beyond Time can prevent Crono and Co from appearing at any given time point as they originally appeared. If the actions that follow that appearance are malleable, then the future of Home World could be changed without violating TTI. Yet would the individual’s knowledge of the events also be protected? This is a bit (but not totally) moot as once Crono and Co leave the future they will appear in the past; that appearance would also be protected by TTI and so what they knew when they originally appeared will be what they always know when they appear at the time. However, the Crono that leaves the future could have his knowledge changed. But being a Time Bastard, he'd be shunted off to the Darkness Beyond Time... except that in a world without original Crono's time traveling having TTI, would this alternate Crono then be shunted off to the DBT?

Actually, Time Bastardization occurs when a person leaves their natural progression in the 4^th dimension. And whether anything is time bastardized or not; if something changes to cause an alternate timeline the obsolete timeline would altogether be sent to TDBT.  As for being sent to TDBT the newest appearance (not newest by normal chronology but by time error) takes priority as if it is in fact the same person, the newest occurance would be the one protected from being sent to TDBT. Having TTI immunity would *normally* prevent the unnatural altering of TTI's subject, by older versions of said subject (although I guess someone could travel back in time to kill another time bastard as it would be semi-natural, but said time bastard would still arrive at his chosen destination as if nothing happened, but still newer versions of the subject could potentially cause the older time bastard to be sent to TDBT.) as the older versions would only be sent to TDBT.

When was it indicated that Lavos, as the Time Devourer, would have complete mastery over time? He could consume it, possibly affecting the flow of time as a result, but could he change it according to his slightest whim?

If Lavos could reach TDBT, a receptacle of discarded timelines and possibly the residence of the entity, that would definitely imply that Lavos (with Schala) has supreme manipulation of time. And as Lavos's actions within TDBT aren't very well documented, it's anyone's guess as to his true capabilities. 

Quick question; how are you dividing these dimensions up? Admittedly, I generally work from 4 spatial dimensions, but 3 spatial + 1 timeline is also a valid. Thus are your six dimensions length, width, height, time, time-error, and "dimension"? Or perhaps you are combining time and time-error so "dimensions" if a 5th dimension and thus supposing a yet higher dimension? Or is this some other ordering of dimensions (perhaps explained in your video link)? And by fold, are you referring to manifolds?

0^th Dimension= a point; or simple existence.
1^st Dimension= a point connecting to another; or length
2^nd Dimension= a point connecting to two more points via a split; or width
3^rd Dimension= a point connecting to two more points via a split, only the split is able to fold and connect the two sides of the split and, seemingly, to a flatlander (a two dimensional existence), a point on one line of the split would appear to teleport from one side to the other; or depth
4^th Dimension= treating all dimensions prior as a point, or point^I (or current state in respect to this dimension), said point will connect to another point^I (which is another state); or time
5^th Dimension= a point^I connecting to two more point^Is via a split; or possibility via choice or variable
6^th Dimension= a point^I connecting to two more point^Is via a split, only the split is able to fold and connect the two sides of the split and, seemingly, to us (a three dimensional existence), a point on one line of the split would appear to teleport from one side (scenario in time) to the other (another scenario in time); the ability to move from one you to another you in an alternate scenario
7^th Dimension= treating all dimensions prior as a point, or point^II (or current state in respect to this dimension), said point will connect to another point^II (which is another state); or reality
8^th Dimension= a point^II connecting to two more point^IIs via a split; or possibilities of what reality will change into
9^th Dimension= a point^II connecting to two more point^IIs via a split, only the split is able to fold and connect the two sides of the split and a point on one line of the split would appear to teleport from one side (scenario in reality) to the other (another scenario in reality); the ability to move from one you to another you in an alternate reality
10^th Dimension= a point^III containing all prior dimensions (standard string theory), maybe a line connecting two point^IIIs (M-theory); or all possibilities/ all possibilities connecting to another set of all possibilities
11^th Dimension= a point^IV containing all prior dimensions, only possible in M-theory, ; or all sets of all possibilities

That is certainly one interpretation (that dimensions can have identical yet separate pasts), one that I am quite willing to accept, but I am curious as to if you are speaking out of person belief or external evidence that I am just not aware of (or is that in the video you linked to as well)? That is, how do you know that H Dimensions are the reality while Y dimensions are the fantasy?

As this my interpretation is based on multidimensional theory it is neither my own personal belief nor is there evidence (I believe there isn't any experimental evidence for any of the models/theories, just mathematics, right? ), I just happen to concur with string theory as it is the most intriguing theory in my viewpoint. As for Y and H dimensions (That *is* viewing time in two dimensions, you are talking about splits, by the way. And as far as I know standard model doesn't explain or allow alternate dimensions.) I bypassed the whole deal by taking into account the 6^th dimension.

I'll take a look as soon as I am able to devote some time to it, but it looks like that is an argument from String Theory; is that correct? If so... well String Theory has its own problems that makes it less than an ideal point (pun intended) to be arguing from.

Forgive me for being blunt, but standard model leaves and attempts no explanation on many things, causing many of the major theories to remain fragmented and separate. (a *major* reason for most string theory advocates.)

I find a problem with that video, I have seen it many times. The video implies infinite matter and energy, to work with even though that would cause a few problems for modern physics/chemistry.




Then again there is magic in CT/CC.

When you take into account *all* of the infinite possibilities of *all* the alternate universes/realities; matter and energy counts between them *are* infinite.
However, I agree with you, it is a rather simplistic video, though, it does get the *basic* points across. Which is all I need to support the current argument.

However there are better videos, here for example (it is part of a series called The Elegant Universe which you can find its entirety here), that explain a little better and from a different viewpoint.

[Kebrel]

I can only answer with ba humbug. The end of that clip is ridicules, as I said before magic works too and is just as feasible, lay off the string theory for a bit and think. small hops undetectable, undocumentable, that fix every single flaw in modern QM, and best of all can't be proven or disproven at all. Or think about this, we just haven't a god damn clue why certain things happen YET. Scientific advancement rely on one thing, being about to admit your wrong. People nowadays just are too argent(not me though ) to admit they could be. Thats the real beauty of string theory you won't be wrong.


I am typing this half asleep make sense yes?

[Thought]

0^th Dimension= a point; or simple existence.
1^st Dimension= a point connecting to another; or length
2^nd Dimension= a point connecting to two more points via a split; or width
3^rd Dimension= a point connecting to two more points via a split, only the split is able to fold and connect the two sides of the split and, seemingly, to a flatlander (a two dimensional existence), a point on one line of the split would appear to teleport from one side to the other; or depth
4^th Dimension= treating all dimensions prior as a point, or point^I (or current state in respect to this dimension), said point will connect to another point^I (which is another state); or time
5^th Dimension= a point^I connecting to two more point^Is via a split; or possibility via choice or variable
6^th Dimension= a point^I connecting to two more point^Is via a split, only the split is able to fold and connect the two sides of the split and, seemingly, to us (a three dimensional existence), a point on one line of the split would appear to teleport from one side (scenario in time) to the other (another scenario in time); the ability to move from one you to another you in an alternate scenario
7^th Dimension= treating all dimensions prior as a point, or point^II (or current state in respect to this dimension), said point will connect to another point^II (which is another state); or reality
8^th Dimension= a point^II connecting to two more point^IIs via a split; or possibilities of what reality will change into
9^th Dimension= a point^II connecting to two more point^IIs via a split, only the split is able to fold and connect the two sides of the split and a point on one line of the split would appear to teleport from one side (scenario in reality) to the other (another scenario in reality); the ability to move from one you to another you in an alternate reality
10^th Dimension= a point^III containing all prior dimensions (standard string theory), maybe a line connecting two point^IIIs (M-theory); or all possibilities/ all possibilities connecting to another set of all possibilities
11^th Dimension= a point^IV containing all prior dimensions, only possible in M-theory, ; or all sets of all possibilities

Thank you; so yes, you are using Superstring/M Theory. Which seems to be part of the disconnect between you and I. I haven't had the opportunity to read much of Lee Smolin's work, "The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next," but I am inclined to agree with his assessment so far. So the Standard Model leaves some major theories fragmented... I am more of the belief that a model that conforms to reality than one that conforms to elegance is "better." However this really isn't the place to be debating if String Theory is valid or not, given that experts in the field aren't sure.

As this my interpretation is based on multidimensional theory it is neither my own personal belief nor is there evidence (I believe there isn't any experimental evidence for any of the models/theories, just mathematics, right? ), I just happen to concur with string theory as it is the most intriguing theory in my viewpoint. As for Y and H dimensions (That *is* viewing time in two dimensions, you are talking about splits, by the way. And as far as I know standard model doesn't explain or allow alternate dimensions.) I bypassed the whole deal by taking into account the 6^th dimension.

Well there is the problem; the multidimensional theory that your interpretation is based on may or may not accurately reflect this universe, much less the Cronoverse. Thus, I'd argue that in the void of a confirmable (or at least, experimentally supported) real world basis for excluding potential models, and in the void of counter-arguments, those potential models remain potential. If, then, such a model offers a simpler, more efficient solution to a question involving the topic of such models, that model would then be chosen as the most likely and could then form the basis of extended analysis.

In short, bypassing the whole deal may be easy, but it may not be accurate.

Forgive me for being blunt, but standard model leaves and attempts no explanation on many things, causing many of the major theories to remain fragmented and separate. (a *major* reason for most string theory advocates.)

Prove first that "major theories" should not "remain fragmented and separate." It is better to know a little firmly than to know a lot ethereally.

String theory is about as useful to any discussion as postmodernism.

Of course, Standard Model isn’t much better; it tells us nothing of the possibility of higher dimensions, but at least it provides us with a solid foundation to build upon. Our house of cards can at least be built on a solid table, rather than the upper ethers.

Quick aside: being verified by mathematics, at the least, means that system is internally consistent, not that it is accurate. One needs external evidence to actually connect the math to reality.

[BROJ]

I can only answer with ba humbug. The end of that clip is ridicules, as I said before magic works too and is just as feasible, lay off the string theory for a bit and think. small hops undetectable, undocumentable, that fix every single flaw in modern QM, and best of all can't be proven or disproven at all. Or think about this, we just haven't a god damn clue why certain things happen YET. Scientific advancement rely on one thing, being about to admit your wrong. People nowadays just are too argent(not me though ) to admit they could be. Thats the real beauty of string theory you won't be wrong.


I am typing this half asleep make sense yes?

Whoa... dude  I'm not truly arguing with you, although it may seem so, as there's no *real* basis for either of our arguments. In my defense, I was asked what I believed, along the lines of physics, and what was my reason in applying it. It just happens that I *like* string theory the most that I advocate it. I agree there *are* a lot of zealots (I'm not one, trust me on this one...), but I very well realize I could be wrong, hell, *all* of us could have it all wrong, but we're here and now and we have to push forward, regardless, in *all* theories if we even hope to know more. The allure of string theory and frontier physics is that *anyone* could be right, thats the *real* beauty.

Thank you; so yes, you are using Superstring/M Theory. Which seems to be part of the disconnect between you and I. I haven't had the opportunity to read much of Lee Smolin's work, "The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next," but I am inclined to agree with his assessment so far. So the Standard Model leaves some major theories fragmented... I am more of the belief that a model that conforms to reality than one that conforms to elegance is "better." However this really isn't the place to be debating if String Theory is valid or not, given that experts in the field aren't sure.

How is one to tell if a system conforms to reality or just appears to explain reality without any experimental evidence? Until conclusive results come back from all of the collider experiments and other similar experiments, there won't be much to back up either theory. As I said I just said, "I just happen to concur with string theory as it is the most intriguing theory in my viewpoint.".

Well there is the problem; the multidimensional theory that your interpretation is based on may or may not accurately reflect this universe, much less the Cronoverse. Thus, I'd argue that in the void of a confirmable (or at least, experimentally supported) real world basis for excluding potential models, and in the void of counter-arguments, those potential models remain potential. If, then, such a model offers a simpler, more efficient solution to a question involving the topic of such models, that model would then be chosen as the most likely and could then form the basis of extended analysis.

In short, bypassing the whole deal may be easy, but it may not be accurate.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but accuracy is relative to the math and, unfortunately, opinion or otherwise taken as zealotism.
As for the Chronoverse, it may very well be possible by toying with initial conditions (Big Bang) and timelines. Obviously, I'm not assuming that is possible, but it *would* be cool, wouldn't it...

Prove first that "major theories" should not "remain fragmented and separate." It is better to know a little firmly than to know a lot ethereally.

The only reason why the theories are separate, though, is that there is inconsistencies/paradoxes (which is bad, I'm afraid...) that severely implies that someone/something is wrong. So thats why I am intrigued by string theory, because it's actually *trying* to solve some of the fundamental problems with physics. And it may be that this theory seems so radical that I am drawn to it.

String theory is about as useful to any discussion as postmodernism.

Aww, man that's just cold. 

Of course, Standard Model isn’t much better; it tells us nothing of the possibility of higher dimensions, but at least it provides us with a solid foundation to build upon. Our house of cards can at least be built on a solid table, rather than the upper ethers.

No solid evidence, unfortunately, means no solid table.

Quick aside: being verified by mathematics, at the least, means that system is internally consistent, not that it is accurate. One needs external evidence to actually connect the math to reality.

Exactly.