Author Topic: No Country for Bad Movies  (Read 1215 times)

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
No Country for Bad Movies
« on: February 25, 2008, 04:23:50 pm »
I checked the news this morning and found, to my surprise, that the Oscars were last night. Curiously, the news stories going around aren't just "oh look how this wonderful movie won a well-deserved award" but rather more along the lines of journalists and entertainment specialists asking "does anyone care about the Oscars anymore."

The reason people in the industry are asking this question is that the rating for this award show, and prior installments of the Oscars in recent years, was rather pitiful compared to what it has been. Part of this is blamed on the widening divide between "Blockbuster" films and "Prestige" films.

That is a "divide" that I find to be rather silly. Why should there be a difference between films that are fun to watch and films that are "art"?

I'm rather pleased that Juno was nominated for Best Picture (or so I discovered a few minutes ago); it is a real crowd-pleaser of a movie, with some wonderful acting, a musical score that grows on you like a fungus, and it manages to include a good bit of "prestige" (serious topic, fresh and comparatively realistic approach to said topic, certainly more than a smattering of film-school techniques, etc). Movies like that show that there doesn't need to be such a divide: a good movie can be both enjoyable and enlightening.

So why does crap get filmed and given the label of "prestige" or "art"?

As two asides, it was a bit of a crime that Enchanted's "That's How You Know" didn't win best original song. I am also slightly annoyed (but not surprised) that Transformers didn't win special effects; come on, the talking bear can't compare to the talking car!

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2008, 04:48:22 pm »
Because it's hard to take comedies seriously?...since they don't really usually want you to...>_>

oh, and "inanimate" objects are easier to render.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 04:51:30 pm by V_Translanka »

placidchap

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2008, 05:44:09 pm »
I find the title of this topic particularly amusing  8)

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 06:13:32 pm »
Actually, comedy is a wonderful device as it allows one to make a point while disarming the inherent objections that the viewer might have. If I might make a modest proposal, satire is just one example of comedy and serious critique combined into one element ;)

The Diary of a Mad Black Woman, Juno, Bruce Almighty, 50 First Dates, Manos: The Hands of Fate, they are all comedies that are also serious and (I’d say) "prestigious films." Evoking both humor and tears is quite difficult, but wonderful when done right.

Lucky there's a man who, positively can do, all the things that make us laugh and cry.

bah, "animate objects" are highly over-rated.

Kebrel

  • Springtime of Youth
  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1333
  • नार्य काम संस्कृत
    • View Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2008, 09:40:57 pm »
I did watch the oscars as I have every year And was annyoed that for the most part I didn't see any of the movie nominated.I do think comedy is often underrated, then again most of it is nothing but sex, racail jokes I can see why they get that reputation. How is "Manos: The Hands of Fate" at all serious and prestigious. MSt3k yes, the movie no.

Michael Bay made sure all the transformations in the movie are possible, so there technically possible to build as there seen in the movie. thats an Oscer winner right there.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2008, 10:58:15 pm »
Intelligence, or perceived intelligence is the difference. Batman and the Fantastic Four both have a number of fans and movies. Batman Begins is an intelligent piece with venerable actors. The Fantastic Four movie is an action flick with less depth and acting range. Batman Begins got the Oscar nod.

I only go to three or four movies a year, and this is why. I do not go to art house movies, either; I couldn't give a flying damn about some woman's times during the Iranian revolution, or what some dying intellectual hallucinates. I wish more subjects were written and directed with intelligence like the art movies are, because it's a rare synergy. And as long as the populace pays to see gutter trash, gutter trash is what they'll get. Even if a movie is repulsive, if the net present value of making it is positive and there are no other attractive business opportunities, the studio will make it.

Ellen Page is pro-choice.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2008, 01:15:45 am »
How is "Manos: The Hands of Fate" at all serious and prestigious. MSt3k yes, the movie no.

The movie is terribly serious, which is part of its problem. However there is something to be said for movies that are so... camp. Though, I really did throw that out there to see if anyone would notice.

And as long as the populace pays to see gutter trash, gutter trash is what they'll get. Even if a movie is repulsive, if the net present value of making it is positive and there are no other attractive business opportunities, the studio will make it.

Actually, I'd say the problem is exactly the opposite. The populace doesn't pay to see repulsive "art movies" yet for some reason they keep getting made. Why do studios, and talented directors/producers/writers, waste time, money, and effort on such artistic trash?

Yet as you pointed out, it is quite possible to make intelligent films (Batman Begins being one example) that appeal to mass audiences while still being artistic. Unfortunately even those movies get a bad rap it seems. Sure, Batman Begins got a nomination for Achievement in Cinematography, but it didn't win. And what of Adapted Screenplay? Certainly the divide between pulp comic books and movies is far more impressive than short-story to movie, especially when it is done well. And come on, it takes one damn talented actor to make Batman seem believable and real. But no, Batman Begins (and other movies of equal or better merit) get nominated to categories that people don’t care about (or categories are created for them so that “real” films don’t have to compete against them… Best Animated Feature Film, I’m looking at you), they get shuffled to the back of the bus.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2008, 01:21:02 am »
1) Art movies include a lot of independent outfits who have a passion for the medium and craft.
2) Art movies cost a Rhode Island fraction of budgeted Hollywood films. This fact enables number one.

This is a market like any other, and if enough people are willing to see Larry the Cable Guy crap his pants in high definition, then by God, give the people what they want.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2008, 02:01:25 am »
Seriously, Thought? Bruce Almighty & 50 First Dates? Lame comedic date movies w/interesting gimmicks, I'll admit...but aside from that I don't see anything special about them...

As for Batman Begins...while it's certainly one of the best Batman films, I personally couldn't stand how the action sequences were filmed...

Regardless, I haven't taken the "Academy" seriously since they totally screwed Crouching Tiger by giving the Oscar to Gladiator...How are you gonna give a film best Director and NOT best Film? LAME.

It's called best VISUAL EFFECTS. Since metals are easier to render, they're less impressive.

And why the hell are we continuing to make these all tiny???
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 02:03:59 am by V_Translanka »

Burning Zeppelin

  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3137
    • View Profile
    • Delicate Cutters
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2008, 02:13:21 am »
Arthouse is not a style of film created to make money. Unlike big Hollywood films which are made to pull in a profit, art films are usually an expression of the directors feelings and thoughts. Why do you think so many musicians are pro-file sharing? In the end, most artists make art so people enjoy it, not so they get a profit out of it. Arthouse isn't necessarily meant to be accessible like pop cinema or music is, it doesn't have to be based upon accepted art forms and techniques.

And from what I've heard, Juno's sound track is full of indie pop from the Moldy Peaches, and a Sonic Youth song :-P

placidchap

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2008, 08:13:18 am »
I have taken to foreign movies lately (mainly because of my wife).  Namely French movies and they are infinitely better than the garbage spewed forth by Hollywood.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2008, 02:04:27 pm »
1) Art movies include a lot of independent outfits who have a passion for the medium and craft.
2) Art movies cost a Rhode Island fraction of budgeted Hollywood films. This fact enables number one.

This is a market like any other, and if enough people are willing to see Larry the Cable Guy crap his pants in high definition, then by God, give the people what they want.

Except there is a market for high quality movies (there is also a market for low-quality movies). Not "art" movies, mind you; separating art from popular is a false dichotomy. Indeed, it would be possible to combine the market for popular movies and art movies. The only thing that separates a good art movie from becoming a popular movie is proper distribution (and name recognition, but not by viewers). The largest advantage of large studios is that they have the funding to advertise to distribution sites (aka, theaters); advertising to the general population is a secondary concern. Small, indie films do not have that first advantage; but what they do have is the power of word of mouth. Rather potent, really; Firefly and Serenity had the marketing power of major studios but "failed." Along comes ol' word of mouth and the fans were able to drum up enough support to get a big damn movie made, word of mouth made Serenity DVD sales rather impressive (impressive enough to help makeup for the failed theatrical promotions).

Indie outfits certainly have a passion for the medium and the craft, but it isn’t like Michael Bay, Christopher Nolan, Peter Jackson, or Hayao Miyazaki are less passionate for the medium and craft just because they work for large studios.

What would certainly help movies that are both artistic and entertaining is recognition. There are two markets in play in the movie industry, both are for profit; there are the "popcorn" movies that are meant to bring in money from the average individual, then there are the "prestige" movies that are meant to bring in honor and acclaim from "critics." Good movies -- movies that are both artistic and popular -- need both to thrive. The public market is quite willing to support such movies, but the critic market… not so much.

As to the false dichotomy, allow me to state that Fart is Art. Larry the Cable Guy crapping his pants may well be closer to Athena's domain than some of the stuff you'd find at an indie movie fest (not saying that it actually is, however).

Seriously, Thought? Bruce Almighty & 50 First Dates? Lame comedic date movies w/interesting gimmicks, I'll admit...but aside from that I don't see anything special about them...

Bruce Almighty is a date movie? Odd, considering how little the leading lady actually factors into the story. Rather, I'd say it is a movie about a man's relationship with the divine (not many movies get to list "God" as one of the rolls). It would seem that if Faust can be art, Bruce Almighty at least had/has a chance. Certainly, it starts with an outlandish concept (man becomes omnipotent but not omniscient) but treats it rather seriously. We get some jokes out of the deal (GF gets a divine implants, dog uses the toilet, etc), these serve a direct purpose of breaking up the overall seriousness (disarming the audience to increase effectiveness) but at the end of the day it isn't God's powers that make everything right, it is Bruce actively working to make himself a better person. The movie presents the “real” chance that Bruce and Grace might not end up together; it is through his actions as a mere mortal that earns him the chance to be with her when the credits roll. There are deep themes there, the difference between the self-centered and the other-centered life. Curiously, Bruce Almighty is also used by a lot of churches to spark community discussion about God and man's relationship with the divine.

Sure, it lacks some artistic qualities (I don’t think it is all that impressive in terms of lighting considerations, or the cinematography, or the imaginarium), but the art is in the compelling telling of human stories, not the window-dressing.

And I think we keep making these comments tiny as it is almost a different discussion. Metal is easier to render, true enough. But I thought the award was supposed to go towards the best effect, not the most difficult. Animating a bear? Meh, Narnia did as good of a job; Golden Compass didn't tread new territory, it rehashed tried and true methods. Transformers had the much more difficult task of making the fundamentally unreal not only appear real and plausible, but appear as if it fits in perfectly with the rest of the world. Transformers could be said to have cross the Uncanny Valley

Arthouse is not a style of film created to make money. Unlike big Hollywood films which are made to pull in a profit, art films are usually an expression of the directors feelings and thoughts. Why do you think so many musicians are pro-file sharing? In the end, most artists make art so people enjoy it, not so they get a profit out of it.

So many musicians are pro-file sharing because the music industry is like a cancer, draining the life-giving nutrients out of the system. Most musicians see a relatively small portion of the proceeds from their work; a large portion of the money has to go to large music labels to cover the costs of poor business practices (such as developing potential "brands" that never get released). If we were to apply evolution to the music industry, I believe we'd find music corporations to be suppressing natural selection.

File-sharing is the power of word of mouth; it allows the talents to rise with ease. Why is file-sharing so popular among musicians? Because it allows "art" to become "popular." It helps breakdown the artificial barrier between the two concepts.

That is exactly the point; art is meant to be enjoyed. It is quite possible for art and popular to go together. But there is a concept floating around somewhere (and it seems to be manifesting itself in the Academy Awards) that lack of public enjoyment is almost a validation of art (and in turn, popularity denotes lack of artistic value). Art and Popularity aren't mutually inclusive, certainly, but neither are they mutually exclusive; returning to the original question, why should various industries (the movie industry in particular) make such a dichotomy?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5301
    • View Profile
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2008, 10:49:15 pm »
I saw "Be Kind Rewind" last night...  and was PLEASANTLY surprised by how good it was.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2008, 12:05:34 am »
I have taken to foreign movies lately (mainly because of my wife).  Namely French movies and they are infinitely better than the garbage spewed forth by Hollywood.

I quite liked The Brother of the Wolf. Have you seen Vidocq by any chance? It's something I'm interested in seeing, but haven't been able to find.

Burning Zeppelin

  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3137
    • View Profile
    • Delicate Cutters
Re: No Country for Bad Movies
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2008, 03:58:16 am »
Art film makers want to be recognized. They want people to watch their movies. The problem with "popular movies" is not because they are popular, but because what is popular is often the same. Watching the same movie over and over again gets a bit tiresome. Example - I'm not the most artsy guy, even though I enjoy art movies more than Hollywood ones. When I watched Spiderman for the second time after 3 or 4 years, I detested it. I was disgusted. Truly one of the worst movies I had ever watched. Yet my friend who LOVES art movies, and wants to be a director when he grows up, doesn't hate it as much as I do, and his reason was because he isn't fed the same bullshit over and over again as I am.