Author Topic: The Pendant and the Telepod  (Read 8749 times)

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2008, 03:08:34 am »
Ah, but could the Entity have forseen Crono & Co's actions? If it knew what they were going to do, then wouldn't that mean that by doing what it expected of them they were fulfilling fate? ;)

If you're doing something to counter 'fate' then, no, it's not really fate at all, is it? I suppose it just depends on your definition of fate. But to me if you can change time then 'fate' doesn't exist.

As for that Mother Brain quote...I think that's kind of negated by the things Schala (?) says in the end of Cross...Each planet is about the life on it...I don't think robots destroying humanity would qualify as the planet getting better in the Entity's eyes. Plus, there's the whole fact of the Mother Brain was INSANE. I don't know how much faith we can put into the rantings of the Mother Brain...>_>

Quote from: BROJ
But what if the Entity *is* the DBT, which absorbs timelines and such; which would mean Lavos is like a tick sucking on the life blood of the Entity/planet. Just my theory, anyways...

What makes you think the Entity is the DBT? FTW?

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2008, 11:11:15 am »
If you're doing something to counter 'fate' then, no, it's not really fate at all, is it? I suppose it just depends on your definition of fate. But to me if you can change time then 'fate' doesn't exist.

I suppose I'd define fate as a person doing something with the foreknowledge of that action existing. The planet might have suspected that Crono and Co would try to defeat Lavos, but if it knew definitively that they would make that attempt, then that seems like fate to me. But that is getting a bit away from the original topic.

As for that Mother Brain quote...I think that's kind of negated by the things Schala (?) says in the end of Cross...Each planet is about the life on it...I don't think robots destroying humanity would qualify as the planet getting better in the Entity's eyes. Plus, there's the whole fact of the Mother Brain was INSANE. I don't know how much faith we can put into the rantings of the Mother Brain...>_>

I quite agree, Mother is F-ing Insane. However, there is a difference between human life and life in general. If the Entity can be happy with Dragonians instead of Humans, why not robots instead? As Chrono Cross reveals, humans have been effected by Lavos so much that they are almost alien to the planet. If we look at Crono and Co as the Entity's immune system, then Mother Brain might just be an autoimmune disease.

But I sort of took Mother Brains comment to mean that once Lavos' spawn left, life would begin anew. There are scraps of life left on the planet, without Lavos those could flourish and repopulate the world, possibly eventually leading to the eventual evolution of new intelligent life. Ending human life had nothing to do with that, though perhaps Mother Brain saw humans as retarding the recovery of the planet (they did, after all, replace the Reptites in the Keystone Dimension, and the Dragonians were supposedly closer to the planet).

Anywho, to at least touch base with the original topic: I'd say that it is still important to distinguish Doreen from the Entity; she might have been, and probably was, influenced by the Entity but she is different enough that it would not be accurate to say that "The Entity Did It" in regards to the pendant.

Quote from: BROJ
But what if the Entity *is* the DBT, which absorbs timelines and such; which would mean Lavos is like a tick sucking on the life blood of the Entity/planet. Just my theory, anyways...
[/quote]

Well Lavos is like a tick even if the Entity isn't the DBT. But yes, what makes you think this (intuition, evidence from the games, etc)?

As presented in the games, it seems like the Entity conforms to the Gaia Hypothesis, but I'm always willing to consider other options.

Why is it that Robo, Mother brain are the one that seem to really under stand the planet? Them and Balthazar (who uses machines) might have some thing that clicks with the planet. Or is it just that they can live forever?

Well for Robo, I took that to be part of his personality, to observe the world closely. After 400 years, I'd hope he'd pick something up, especially if those 400 years were spent cultivating life (which in turn means, I think, that he was also cultivating the Entity).

The same might be true of Mother Brain, but she seems to have a fundamental flaw in her design/programming. After living for extended periods of time she was able to perceive the nature of the planet, but her programming found that humans just had too much aggression and that the most efficient answer was to shut their systems down (possibly using poisonous gasses to poison their asses).

To note, I think all the Guru's have particular knowledge of the Entity, not just Belthasar. Certainly it would seem like Melchior is in a situation to be knowledgeable as well.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5304
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2008, 03:32:59 pm »
(Flight of the Conchords = <3 <3 <3)

I think anyone who lived for hundreds of years would obtain a better grasp at understanding the fundamentals of humanity, the planet, etc.  I mean, Robo is at least 700 years old by the end of chrono trigger (granted he was asleep for some of those years).

is there a physical gaia hypothesis i could freshen up with?

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2008, 04:42:56 pm »
Quote from: Thought
I suppose I'd define fate as a person doing something with the foreknowledge of that action existing. The planet might have suspected that Crono and Co would try to defeat Lavos, but if it knew definitively that they would make that attempt, then that seems like fate to me.

That sounds more like just a sort of omniscience than 'fate'...and it's certainly no more far out than what Belthasar accomplishes in CC.

Quote from: Thought
If the Entity can be happy with Dragonians instead of Humans, why not robots instead? As Chrono Cross reveals, humans have been effected by Lavos so much that they are almost alien to the planet. If we look at Crono and Co as the Entity's immune system, then Mother Brain might just be an autoimmune disease.

Yeah, but isn't it the Entity that sort of chooses which survives? And anyways, in 1999 it didn't appear as though much else of the life was of the Entity's liking...I mean, mutants & robots basically. I think there always has to be a prevailing lifeforce for the planet. Either the humans or the Reptites...and since the Reptites were gone and then with Mother Brain wiping out the humans...the Mother Brain & the robots would still be a foreign object or disease, much like Lavos itself.

Quote from: Thought
without Lavos those could flourish and repopulate the world

When's Lavos supposed to be gone?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 04:44:27 pm by V_Translanka »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5304
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2008, 04:48:46 pm »
but it's not omniscience on belthasar's place; it's just complex science.  he was able to PREDICT all of the eventual outcomes of a long series of events, planned out so carefully that he knew the eventual freedom would be the freedom of schala and the destruction of the time devourer.  concerning belthasar in chrono cross, it wasn't actually even fate or omniscience -- it was science.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2008, 05:13:45 pm »
Yeah, I was just referring to Thought's idea about what 'fate' was.

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2008, 12:43:56 am »
but it's not omniscience on belthasar's place; it's just complex science. 
Maybe not omniscience, but rather semiscience. (BTW notice the science component in semiscience and omniscience; which as we all know means "to know")

What makes you think the Entity is the DBT? FTW?
Sorry for the delay, I've been busy with the Guile-->Magus project. Ponder this, and this *is* just speculation, so please bear with my reasoning: the darkness beyond time is beyond time is a place coincidentally beyond time, but yet it still seems to have somewhat of a influence, or at least a direct relation, with time. One (me, of course) would say that would be a good place is a good place for the entity to hide. And if the DBT is "beyond" time that would infer there is a border, right? The first, and correct, answer is that said place is the end of time. And if the EOT is, in fact, the end, then you could easily reverse the situation and say it is the beginning of time, right? So that corroborates my idea of the DBT at least having a direct connection with time.
Now, I know that was fairly obvious, but it would be a very good place for the entity to reside. Now on to proving, at least implicitly, my theory. Remember how Magus(young, I forget the name), Belthazar, Melchior, and Gasper were warped from the throne room of Queen Zeal That would violate the conservation of time caveat presented in the beginning of the game, right? So that would imply that they should of ended up at the EOT, first. And that they may have came in contact the entity, and the entity would have imparted the knowledge and means (notice Belthazar's exceptionally above par ability of sensing how the timeline will react to changes.) to set in course the events of purging lavos from the planet, if he really resided in the DBT, of course. Other than that, it's still speculation, but it's what I believe at the moment. :wink:

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2008, 01:56:53 am »
Quote from: BROJ
BTW notice the science component in semiscience and omniscience; which as we all know means "to know"

Duh? Can't that just be figured out by knowing what the word omniscience means? Or, as you point out, just the prefix & suffix that it is, I guess...

The DBT is beyond time in that it's like an altogether different dimension or plane of existence where things are seemingly sent to be wiped from existence...why would the Entity reside there at all? Much less need to 'hide' there? The Entity is just the planet...I don't think it's conscious form, if it technically has one, would need to exist on another plane of reality.

Also, the Gurus & Janus were warped through four different Lavos gates and thus avoid the conversion of time theorem.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2008, 11:14:06 am »
Yeah, but isn't it the Entity that sort of chooses which survives? And anyways, in 1999 it didn't appear as though much else of the life was of the Entity's liking...I mean, mutants & robots basically. I think there always has to be a prevailing lifeforce for the planet. Either the humans or the Reptites...and since the Reptites were gone and then with Mother Brain wiping out the humans...the Mother Brain & the robots would still be a foreign object or disease, much like Lavos itself.

The Entity choose which species survived? I don't recall that...

Anywho, why would robots be a foreign object to the planet? Their bodies are made from it, just as Human or Reptite bodies are/were. Mother Brain's behavior seems to be no different really than Azala's; both want to eradicate humans through genocide. Should we say that Robo is any less alive than, say, the Nu? While certainly different than biological organisms, Robots seem like they could be the "prevailing lifeforce for the planet" just as well as any other species.

As for mutants, what is so bad about that? Mutation is a necessary component of evolution; the creatures of 2300 might be "mutants," but technically so are humans. Can you drink milk? If so, you're a mutant (the gene that controls the production of lactase normally shuts off after infancy; it is a mutation that it stays on for a creatures entire life).

When's Lavos supposed to be gone?

For that, you'd have to ask Mother Brain. Presumably, like any virus, the original copy dies in the production of its spawn (it is a bit curious that 2300 is the only era in which Lavos cannot appear).

One (me, of course) would say that would be a good place is a good place for the entity to hide.
Hide from what?

And if the DBT is "beyond" time that would infer there is a border, right? The first, and correct, answer is that said place is the end of time.

Actually, the two can be very different things. Consider a 1 dimensional line; it has a beginning and an end. Another line might be separated from the first by a 2 dimensional distance. That 2nd line is "beyond" the first line, but it is neither the beginning nor the end of that 1st line.

And if the EOT is, in fact, the end, then you could easily reverse the situation and say it is the beginning of time, right?

No. The end can be the beginning, but that isn't a certainty. Consider a journey. You begin the journey at point A and end it at point B. Point B is the end, but it certainly is not the beginning.

Remember how Magus(young, I forget the name), Belthazar, Melchior, and Gasper were warped from the throne room of Queen Zeal That would violate the conservation of time caveat presented in the beginning of the game, right?

Janus. And there are three things wrong with that. As V_Translanka pointed out, they used separate gates. As the game illustrates, the conservation of time doesn't always function (as displayed with the large gate that shifts Crono and Co as well as Magus). And finally, that is a bit of a mistranslation. Going off the retranslation (emphasis added):

Quote from: Gaspar
When you enter a space-time distortion with four or more people who live in different times, the dimensional field distorts...
However, there are many space-time distortions in this place.
There are even those who, like you, appear here aimlessly...
Perhaps something is exerting an effect on all of time...

As the three Guru's and Janus all live in the same time period, the dimensional field wouldn't distort.

Note, however, that in the retranslation, such distortions don't take one automatically to the End of Time. Rather, the field is just distorted. This could result in appearing at the end of time, but this would also explain why Magus and Crono and Co weren't sent to the End of Time.

Anywho, the Entity always seemed to me to be much more... zen-like, in nature. Action through inaction, acceptance of the moment, etc. Thus I'd still maintain that the Entity never planned on using Crono and Co to defeat Lavos.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2008, 03:02:10 pm »
Quote from: Thought
The Entity choose which species survived? I don't recall that...

Azala seems to talk about it when she's defeated...something along the lines of "the Entity has spoken" because the Reptites lost to the humans. Also, the chapter name itself Unnatural Selection?/Law of the Earth. Ah, found teh quote...

Quote from: Azala
Absolutely not! The powers that be have spoken./No! This is what the earth has decided!

Quote from: Thought
Anywho, why would robots be a foreign object to the planet?

Because they are man-made and outside of the planet's normal course of evolution.

Quote from: Thought
As for mutants, what is so bad about that? Mutation is a necessary component of evolution; the creatures of 2300 might be "mutants," but technically so are humans.

Yeah, I think it sort of depends on how you believe the mutants in 2300AD actually evolved though...I always figured it was some sort of radiative affect or something stemming from Lavos' attack in 1999AD...but I suppose there's not enough evidence either way...

Quote from: Thought
For that, you'd have to ask Mother Brain. Presumably, like any virus, the original copy dies in the production of its spawn

I think we can agree that Lavos is certainly not so much like any other virus...I don't see why Lavos would die unless perhaps it had no more energy to draw on...Plus, the Mother Brain states that he rules atop Death Peak (whether figuratively or not is debatable, I suppose).

Quote from: Thought
As the game illustrates, the conservation of time doesn't always function (as displayed with the large gate that shifts Crono and Co as well as Magus).

Yeah, I dunno how much that large gate can be used in comparison to the others though since it's a Lavos gate (and/or a malfunction of Magus' summoning...again, debatable). I mean, otherwise, the theorem is always solid.

Quote from: Thought
Action through inaction, acceptance of the moment

I don't see sending a group of kids on a journey through time to be inaction OR acceptance of the moment...>_> I also include the Red gate as the Entity stepping in personally...but that's another debatable theory as others think that somehow Lucca creates it herself...:roll: (I never knew we had an actual eye roll emoticon!)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 03:04:58 pm by V_Translanka »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5304
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2008, 03:28:41 pm »
this is jumping back a few posts, but it makes sense for the darkness beyond time (i always want to say 'darkness in zero', from kingdom hearts, haha) to be a tesseract.

this doesn't really do it justice, but after writing a 30-page thesis paper on it, it makes a lot of sense for the darkness beyond time to be a tesseract (in my opinion, and by no means do you have to buy it)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2008, 08:30:42 pm »
Quote from: BROJ
BTW notice the science component in semiscience and omniscience; which as we all know means "to know"

Duh? Can't that just be figured out by knowing what the word omniscience means? Or, as you point out, just the prefix & suffix that it is, I guess...
see reply:
but it's not omniscience on belthasar's place; it's just complex science.  [...] it wasn't actually even fate or omniscience -- it was science.

p.s. Boo the Gentleman Caller, I meant no offense by that post, I was specifying some semantic errors.

The DBT is beyond time in that it's like an altogether different dimension or plane of existence where things are seemingly sent to be wiped from existence...why would the Entity reside there at all? Much less need to 'hide' there? The Entity is just the planet...I don't think it's conscious form, if it technically has one, would need to exist on another plane of reality.
To be fair I used "hide" because we do not *really* know where, if the entity really exists, it resides and that since we are speculating that he could be, in a subjective sense pertaining to us, could be hiding in any number of places. And my suggestion is one of said places.

One (me, of course) would say that would be a good place is a good place for the entity to hide.
Hide from what?
I responded only in V_Translanka's post earlier in a effort to save time.

Quote
And if the DBT is "beyond" time that would infer there is a border, right? The first, and correct, answer is that said place is the end of time.
Actually, the two can be very different things. Consider a 1 dimensional line; it has a beginning and an end. Another line might be separated from the first by a 2 dimensional distance. That 2nd line is "beyond" the first line, but it is neither the beginning nor the end of that 1st line.

And if the EOT is, in fact, the end, then you could easily reverse the situation and say it is the beginning of time, right?

No. The end can be the beginning, but that isn't a certainty. Consider a journey. You begin the journey at point A and end it at point B. Point B is the end, but it certainly is not the beginning.
There's just too many ways to interpret the phrase DBT; so for now I guess whether I am wrong or right is off in limbo...

BTW *every* equation in physics, especially those pertaining to relativity, that involves time flowing in one direction can easily be reversed without breaking the equations. So, technically, time could flow backwards in our reality (i.e. effect before cause.); it doesn't, but that certainly doesn't make it a paradox either. It certainly sounds weird but when you consider negative change with positive change (which is the basis of time travel to the past...), but it isn't a paradox.

Quote
Remember how Magus(young, I forget the name), Belthazar, Melchior, and Gasper were warped from the throne room of Queen Zeal That would violate the conservation of time caveat presented in the beginning of the game, right?

Janus. And there are three things wrong with that. As V_Translanka pointed out, they used separate gates. As the game illustrates, the conservation of time doesn't always function (as displayed with the large gate that shifts Crono and Co as well as Magus). And finally, that is a bit of a mistranslation. Going off the retranslation (emphasis added):

Quote from: Gaspar
When you enter a space-time distortion with four or more people who live in different times, the dimensional field distorts...
However, there are many space-time distortions in this place.
There are even those who, like you, appear here aimlessly...
Perhaps something is exerting an effect on all of time...

As the three Guru's and Janus all live in the same time period, the dimensional field wouldn't distort.

Note, however, that in the retranslation, such distortions don't take one automatically to the End of Time. Rather, the field is just distorted. This could result in appearing at the end of time, but this would also explain why Magus and Crono and Co weren't sent to the End of Time.

Anywho, the Entity always seemed to me to be much more... zen-like, in nature. Action through inaction, acceptance of the moment, etc. Thus I'd still maintain that the Entity never planned on using Crono and Co to defeat Lavos.
I concede on that part of the theory. touché

Quote from: Thought
Anywho, why would robots be a foreign object to the planet?

Because they are man-made and outside of the planet's normal course of evolution.
Yes, but the "robots" were created by terrestrial humans within the natural flow of time by using terrestrial materials within the natural flow of time.

Quote from: Thought
As for mutants, what is so bad about that? Mutation is a necessary component of evolution; the creatures of 2300 might be "mutants," but technically so are humans.

Yeah, I think it sort of depends on how you believe the mutants in 2300AD actually evolved though...I always figured it was some sort of radiative affect or something stemming from Lavos' attack in 1999AD...but I suppose there's not enough evidence either way...
Just a comment and food for thought:
Radiation from *our* sun(which is extra-terrestrial, by the way) has actually accelerated the natural process of evolution by inadvertently damaging our DNA; so who's to say that Lavos's radiation is pushing evolution in the wrong way...

this is jumping back a few posts, but it makes sense for the darkness beyond time (i always want to say 'darkness in zero', from kingdom hearts, haha) to be a tesseract.

this doesn't really do it justice, but after writing a 30-page thesis paper on it, it makes a lot of sense for the darkness beyond time to be a tesseract (in my opinion, and by no means do you have to buy it)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract
I would have to agree... But, to play the devil's advocate, isn't a tesseract a 4-D object, with the fourth dimension being time. Since it is the darkness beyond time that would leave some uncertainty whether it is a tesseract at all. (remember, just playing devil's advocate)

Boo the Gentleman Caller

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5304
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2008, 09:18:56 pm »
okay.  it's brief physics lesson.  this will help wrap your mind around the concept of a tesseract.

we have three dimensions.  take for instance, a line.  that's one dimension.  turn it into a square, and it becomes two-dimensional (a regular polygon).  turn it into a cube, and it becomes three-dimensional (a platonic solid).  now at this point you could look at the fourth dimension in two ways.  now here is where there are two beliefs.

you can call time the fourth dimension, or you can move time (since time is a whole other concept in itself) to dimension-0.  i prefer to view time as dimension-0, but it's a matter of preference.  when it comes down to it it's all non-euclidean space-time.

if you choose to make time dimension-0, then the fourth dimension version of a square/cube (paragraph 1) would become a convex 4-polytype (see: tesseract).  however, if you choose to view time as the fourth dimension, then the conves 4-polytype becomes the fifth dimension.

it's all dimensional analogy.

if i don't make sense, this could help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_dimension

if the darkness beyond time was truly a fourth dimensional/fifth dimensional tessaract, it's agreeing with string theory that there are multiple dimensions (a fifth, a sixth, etc).  and i'm not talking about realities/universes here; i'm talking about additional layers of reality that are difficult for our three-dimensional minds to comprehend.

in conclussion, a tesseract could exist whether you view it as 4-d or 5-d.  it's all about if you wanna call time 0-d or 4-d.    either way calls for the existence of additional dimensions.

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2008, 09:42:23 pm »
you can call time the fourth dimension, or you can move time (since time is a whole other concept in itself) to dimension-0.  i prefer to view time as dimension-0, but it's a matter of preference.  when it comes down to it it's all non-euclidean space-time.
Ahh... no explanation necessary. I assumed you were viewing time as the fourth dimension, as per the purist view, so I suppose you cleared *that* up, my bad.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2008, 02:50:42 am »
Quote from: BROJ
Yes, but the "robots" were created by terrestrial humans within the natural flow of time by using terrestrial materials within the natural flow of time.

Yeah, but the robots weren't created by the earth. They didn't evolve naturally, but scientifically. And anyways, they weren't created to destroy human life...I don't think you could call the Mother Brain's malfunction a natural evolution...>_>

Quote from: BROJ
Radiation from *our* sun(which is extra-terrestrial, by the way) has actually accelerated the natural process of evolution by inadvertently damaging our DNA; so who's to say that Lavos's radiation is pushing evolution in the wrong way...

Yes, that may be true (who's to say Chronoverse's sun acts as ours? but w/e...that's not the point, I realize), but Lavos is an alien being that's working against the Entity.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 02:20:59 pm by V_Translanka »