Author Topic: Plot Hole?  (Read 7954 times)

Dark Serge

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2008, 04:41:18 pm »
Nice interpretation, but unlike the larger part of the Chrono fans, I don't believe any such thing as "The Entity" exists, it had nothing to do with Crono's quest, and there's no way a planet can be alive.

Other then that, pretty good. And yeah again, Frog (rather Glenn) saved Leene no doubt. I've no idea why Marle disappeared but it shouldn't have happened. I think it was because the developers wanted us to think she'd disappear if the queen wasn't saved, and they probably never thought we would research the thing so much. Also when Lucca said Guardia had called off his search, she didn't know about the existance of Glenn, so she thought it was up to Crono and her to save Leene. Foolish little girl...

V_Translanka

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2008, 07:59:39 pm »
Quote from: Dark Serge
Nice interpretation, but unlike the larger part of the Chrono fans, I don't believe any such thing as "The Entity" exists, it had nothing to do with Crono's quest, and there's no way a planet can be alive.

Yeah, those crazies who'll believe ANYTHING the whole series points to...Who do they think they ARE? Something inanimate harboring a soul of some kind in a series where that's already been done w/the Masamune? Why would they repeat themselves? Oh, what? They also talk about planets being living things in the end of Cross? Well...uh...that could mean ANYTHING! Story elements don't have to be story elements!

:P

BROJ

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2008, 09:14:40 pm »
Quote from: Dark Serge
Nice interpretation, but unlike the larger part of the Chrono fans, I don't believe any such thing as "The Entity" exists, it had nothing to do with Crono's quest, and there's no way a planet can be alive.

Yeah, those crazies who'll believe ANYTHING the whole series points to...Who do they think they ARE? Something inanimate harboring a soul of some kind in a series where that's already been done w/the Masamune? Why would they repeat themselves? Oh, what? They also talk about planets being living things in the end of Cross? Well...uh...that could mean ANYTHING! Story elements don't have to be story elements!

:P

Dark Serge

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2008, 08:08:47 am »
Quote from: Dark Serge
Nice interpretation, but unlike the larger part of the Chrono fans, I don't believe any such thing as "The Entity" exists, it had nothing to do with Crono's quest, and there's no way a planet can be alive.

Yeah, those crazies who'll believe ANYTHING the whole series points to...Who do they think they ARE? Something inanimate harboring a soul of some kind in a series where that's already been done w/the Masamune? Why would they repeat themselves? Oh, what? They also talk about planets being living things in the end of Cross? Well...uh...that could mean ANYTHING! Story elements don't have to be story elements!

:P

Now in english plix.

I don't remember they talked about living planets in CC. Schala was talking about how one single life form could create an entire species on a planet, but other from that, no.

V_Translanka

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2008, 01:51:12 pm »
Yeah, sure, nit-pick the one part that might be interpretive...If the planet is an "egg" that means that it's a living thing.

Quote
All of them are also
   perhaps nothing more than
   a dream dreamt by the planet
   before it is born.

If it dreams it's alive on some level. Throughout the series, the planet's (not just "the Entity") dream is one of the main recurring themes.

EDIT: Plus, wtf? Why am I giving evidence supporting game-based knowledge? Your theory is based on personal, real life belief...where's YOUR evidence that the planet DOESN'T have a consciousness?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 01:58:08 pm by V_Translanka »

Thought

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2008, 03:00:39 pm »
I didn't mean in the original timeline, actually...but it's clear that he IS there in the church and as he says, he's on his guard. He also says that he's going on even w/o Crono & Lucca...So, unless we're led to believe that Frog would have gotten his ass handed to him w/o the aid of Crono & Lucca (c'mon, you've gotta give him more credit than THAT)...I think it's fair to say that Frog would have saved Leene regardless, so that Marle getting Grandfather Paradox'd doesn't make as much sense as Lucca at first believed.

True, the Grandfather paradox doesn't seem to belong. But that doesn't necessitate the Entity either.

What if the change in the timeline had nothing to do with Leene dying, rather with who accompanied Frog? Consider, on the original timeline Guardia Troops would have probably been with him. In the between-Marle/Crono timeline, Frog was alone. In the Post-Crono Timeline, Frog had Crono and Lucca.

Thus, we don't need to suppose the Entity got rid of Marle, just that Marle's existence was dependent on if Frog alone went to save Leene.

I think we can agree that he would have succeeded no matter what. The question is then what would have followed.

In the original timeline, the Guardia Troops would have ensured that Leene got back to the castle (and at least showed her that her husband cared about her to some extent). In the interim timeline, Frog saves the Queen alone and she has no indication that the King gives a flying rat's arse about her (indeed, he can't even tell the difference between her and another woman). And finally, in the last timeline Crono and Lucca have a very good reason for bringing Leene back to the castle.

Thus, in the interim timeline the lack of Guardia-associated individuals is important. When Marle exists, Leene's salvation is connected fairly directly to Guardia. When she doesn't exist, Leene's salvation is not.

We know that Leene and Glenn had a bit of a thing going between them (possibly playing on the old concept of courtly love). In the interim-timeline, Frog and Leene may have eloped together (as she saw the king didn't care about her, but her frog-in-shinning armor noticed that Marle wasn't Leene and risked life and tongue to save her). She still might have children (probably not, though), but not children that would eventually lead to Marle (as in, not Royal decedents).

Now objections might be raised since such a theory has very little evidence in game (almost entirely circumstantial). However, to note, in comparison offers a mundane explanation for an event that would otherwise necessitate direct intervention by the Entity (a being who's actions are generally well beyond human keen).

V_Translanka

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2008, 03:20:45 pm »
I don't know how much I buy that theory...I mean, Leene doesn't seem very perturbed by the King's assumption (not to mention everyone ELSE in the castle...though some have doubts...but even the King says there were odd things about Marle that he thought didn't add up) in the actual K-2 timeline...In fact, she herself says how much alike they are...I don't think any guards possibly accompanying Frog would have changed much. In fact, I don't think they would have accompanied him in the first place at all. There seems to be some anti-Frog sentiments among the guards...some seem to not know who he is...others might blame him for the disappearance of Cyrus...hell, he himself does. Now that I think of it though...I think Frog was only there because he had heard that the guards had given up the search...perhaps he was just following up on a lead then? Or didn't hear that they had actually found her? Or perhaps he had actually somehow gotten a chance to see Marle and had been the one not to believe that it was her? I suppose there's a lot of things we don't get to see that could have factored in...But I just like to think of it my way because it's fairly simple and further explains what happens to Marle...

But, there is some evidence of a possible eloping in that New Game+ ending (though it's also a kind of joke ending)...but that's only after you've brought Leene back to the King & saved Marle from the DBT...or TB...or w/e actually happens to her...>_>

Dark Serge

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2008, 06:00:04 pm »
Yeah, sure, nit-pick the one part that might be interpretive...If the planet is an "egg" that means that it's a living thing.

Quote
All of them are also
   perhaps nothing more than
   a dream dreamt by the planet
   before it is born.

If it dreams it's alive on some level. Throughout the series, the planet's (not just "the Entity") dream is one of the main recurring themes.

EDIT: Plus, wtf? Why am I giving evidence supporting game-based knowledge? Your theory is based on personal, real life belief...where's YOUR evidence that the planet DOESN'T have a consciousness?

Ok, you got a point. But in Chrono Cross it says the planet despises humans, and in other places it says the planet had a dream to stop Lavos or w/e. Why involve the planet? Crono & co found out about Lavos and decided to stop him, that's all there is to it.

Thought

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2008, 06:14:55 pm »
Ok, you got a point. But in Chrono Cross it says the planet despises humans, and in other places it says the planet had a dream to stop Lavos or w/e. Why involve the planet? Crono & co found out about Lavos and decided to stop him, that's all there is to it.

Well how did they find out about Lavos, hmm? Gates. Rather convenient that the gates just happened to connect to key time periods that would ultimately allow Crono and Co to defeat the beasty, no?

Quote from: Gandalf
There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.

placidchap

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2008, 06:48:05 pm »
I suppose that the Entity does not necessarily have to be the planet.  Could just be the almighty Belthasar at work again, seeing into the past, knowing when to open the gates etc.  Pulling off the events in Trigger is just as feasible as his Cross endeavours.

ZealKnight

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2008, 06:58:50 pm »
Well, without the technology not really. Remember technology was lost after Lavos attacked, but with him gone it was gained. As for my frog statement I think he was too but remember the time line had already changed before he was at the church.

V_Translanka

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2008, 07:32:29 pm »
Ok, you got a point. But in Chrono Cross it says the planet despises humans, and in other places it says the planet had a dream to stop Lavos or w/e. Why involve the planet? Crono & co found out about Lavos and decided to stop him, that's all there is to it.

I think that's where you have to draw the line between the planet/the Entity & just nature. I don't know how much influence the Entity chooses to involve itself in when it comes to things like the Dwarves/Fairies or the Dragons...Also, I suppose it's easy to just not think about the Entity...but they bring it up in at least  two key points in CT, so it's kind of hard to just ignore as hearsay...

Dark Serge

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2008, 02:41:40 am »
Ok, you got a point. But in Chrono Cross it says the planet despises humans, and in other places it says the planet had a dream to stop Lavos or w/e. Why involve the planet? Crono & co found out about Lavos and decided to stop him, that's all there is to it.

Well how did they find out about Lavos, hmm? Gates. Rather convenient that the gates just happened to connect to key time periods that would ultimately allow Crono and Co to defeat the beasty, no?

Quote from: Gandalf
There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.

You gotta be kidding me. It was an accident because Marle couldn't control her anxiousness. In a way, you can say it's all thanks to Marle the world was saved. However, if she would've slightly felt different and not pressed that button, they'd have never known. If there was something like The Entity involved, I'd imagine he'd force them to learn about Lavos, instead of letting it depend on a small stroke of luck.

VincentGAU8

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2008, 04:42:38 am »
Hmm, yeah, probably..
But i can't see the Entity NOT existing. Did the developers create the forest scene where Crono
and co. speculate about it just because they wanted to, without any real connection to the story?
Did they just wanted to spend some free time working on something? Or was
it all just for the Lara's leg sidequest?I do believe there is an entity, but then,
the matter is still up for debate... :?

Dark Serge

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Re: Plot Hole?
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2008, 06:23:55 am »
They're just speculating about a possible godlike entity. Just because they argue about it doesn't mean it exists. And I don't know how that gate got there. Maybe it was because of Lucca's wish, or maybe because of the forest itself. The forest was planted from a Zealian seed, after all.