Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development

[Shadow_Dragon]

TOO MUCH LOTR TALK >_<

anyway,
just a question about fate:
What makes the destruction of the ring any more an act of fate than a battle? Also, I can understand considering things determined by human will, or by fate, but mixing the two... Half of everything is predetermined, and the other half is choice? That contradicts itself; every choice made determines the decision of further choices, or every choice is already predetermined, but if some choices are left up for decision, they'd affect/contradict the predetermined actions... Can anyone justify free will and fate both existing?

[teh Schala]

Sure we can.  With MORE LotR talk

The destruction of the Ring was just such an event, both choice and fate.  It became possible through the choices made that brought Frodo & Sam to Mordor, but in spite of Frodo's mental weakness, the Ring ended up being destroyed through the fate that Gollum ended up falling over the edge.

[Hadriel]

One cannot justify an omnipotent God in the Christian sense of the word to coexist with free will.  So, in other words, no; under our knowledge of philosophy thus far, it is impossible to justify free will and divine foreknowledge existing together, but divine foreknowledge is not the same thing as fate.  Perhaps this is one of the changes made to an ideal universe?

The choice offered by Christianity is essentially this: Believe this and you'll go to heaven.  Don't believe it and you burn in hell, but it's still your choice.  That's like putting someone at gunpoint and saying you can give me all your money or you can die, but it's still your choice.  This is the viewpoint taken by the literalist faction of Christianity, anyway; I say it can't be justified because no solution offered has satisfied me, which renders it a matter of faith.  I once thought about a framework similar to the Chrono series, in that God knows all possible timelines, but if he doesn't know what you will choose he isn't omniscient.  The fact is the guy with the gun has the authority, and he's going to get your money one way or the other.

Using this train of logic, vehement atheists often portray God as a sadistic monster; a monster much like Lavos, actually.  This is the primary line of thought used to refute Pascal's wager.  Chrono on the other hand extoles the virtue of free will, and argues that victory against Lavos IS a human action, seeing as the Entity is made out to be hypocritical and selfish in Chrono Cross.  Even though the Entity has a hand in Lavos' destruction, it didn't directly attack the beast.  It took humans who were strong and courageous enough to decide to do something about it for Lavos to be destroyed; all Crono had to do to thwart the Entity's attempt at fate was to decide not to fight Lavos.  If atheists are correct in their logic of an evil God, he will be a virtual Lavos clone.

All who've played Knights of the Old Republic II will remember Kreia's attempt to kill the Force.  The Force is said to have a will, but if the Force has a will, then sentient beings aren't really acting freely.  Of course, without the Force there can exist no life, and so the entire universe dies just because someone feels like being independent.  That isn't really a logically sound course to take: if people don't know any different, then who's to say they don't have free will?  If they can't quantify or observe the forces guiding them, their will remains.  The attempt to touch the Force is the same as the attempt to get closer to God, to be part of something larger than oneself; so people can find purpose.  It's hard to say that the Force is the same thing as Lavos; the Force desires life to grow and flourish, while Lavos desires life to bend to his will.

[Daniel Krispin]

I am replying to these in a distinctly Christian way, so ZeaLitY, and all others who are not, do not be offended. I am speaking to Hadriel who is Christian, in reply to what he said. Oh, and if you don't care one ounce for this discussion (and I don't blame you, I'm losing intersest myself, and becoming mighty confused, even though I'm still speaking confidently)... skip to the very last paragraph. That's on-topic again.

I did read all of that; the only points where I disagree are on the power ratings you've assigned to Melkor and Sauron.  We've actually put numbers on Lavos here at the Compendium.  Dr. Curtis Saxton, Ph.D. in astrophysics from the University of Sydney, has weighed in on Star Wars for the numbers used for those ships.

On Melkor: What's wrong with a desire to create?  

Because it stems from a desire to have one's own way. This is by and large a Christian viewpoint, and I do not expect many (say ZeaLitY, for example), to share it. The problem lies not in the creation, but in the intent inherent in it. Melkor's intent was to go against the will of Eru, to do things his way in his time, and not play the part given him. The rebuke of Eru is what gives shame to Melkor, and from this comes his wrath and hatred. Of course, Eru knows how all will end, so it is still his will, but the peril is there. You see, the problem with creation is that it bears the danger of becoming possessive of this. On one hand stand Fëanor and Melkor, who create things and become obsessed with owning them, and on the other we have one such as Aulë, who submits all his deeds to Eru. Essentially, it is the same difference as exists between Technopoly and Tool-Using Cultures, to bring in an earlier discussion of mine. Essentially, the lesson in it is the first commandment: you shall have no other God but me. When one has the desire to create something, the danger is there to think oneself like to God. That is peril and evil, and Chrono Trigger knows it: the desire to be like God, to be immortal, is what destroyed Zeal.

Really, though, I don't expect many to see it this way. It is very radical compared to the paths society shows us nowadays. Everything is believe in yourself, make your own destiny. Well, I say, believe in God, else destiny will destroy you.

Isn't that what we're doing right now in working out this plot?  

No. The desire to create things is where Melkor's darkness began, but it was not evil in and of itself. Yavanna creates the Two Trees, and birds and beasts, but this is not evil. Varda the stars, again not evil. Aulë in impatience the Dwarves, but he submits himself to Eru for judgement, and is forgiven - this is where he is shown markedly different than Melkor. The danger comes when we do not submit our creations to be coming from God, belonging to God, and being a part of his ultimate design. To do things one's own way... that is what Melkor was doing when he made the orcs.

If anything, Lavos' plan to become God plays perfectly into the hands of the universe's will, just as Eru has his will, because it imparts crucial understanding to humans toward that end.

I couldn't understand what you meant by this segment. Remember: understanding is not the end all and be all of humanity. Faith, love, and hope are.

On combat and quantification: A Star Destroyer generates as much power in its hypermatter reactor as a main-sequence star, and so do other comparable ships such as Mon Calamari Star Cruisers.  Battleships like the Executor and the Viscount (a Mon Calamari Star Defender, which is the New Republic/Galactic Alliance's battleship) have many dozens of times the volume of those ships and far more firepower.  So yes, a Star Destroyer does have the energy of a star; it isn't a misnomer.  The Death Star puts out in one blast as much energy as our Sun does in 7,000 years, or approximately 1E38 J.  Unless Melkor can surpass the Star Destroyer figure,

Well, as I said, Varda made every single star in the universe, and Melkor is mightier than she. So yes, he well surpasses, or did surpass before his descent into Arda, the figure of a Star Destroyer. But even thereafter, one must remember, he is still immortal. No amount of firepower can destroy him, just as there is no way to kill the Elves within the bounds of the world. They die, their spirits are gathered in the Halls of Mandos in the West, but they may at whiles return reincarnate, like Glorfindel, the Elf at the Ford (he died in the first age whilst killing a Balrog.) So blast an Elf with a nuclear weapon, their spirits still linger. How much mightier are the Valar. In fact, they had the power to fully remove Valinor from an attainable place. The world was once flat, the straight path that now is bent. Going straight brings one to Valinor, but it is not a place one can find without the Powers wishing it to be. Thus they have might over and beyond Lavos in that regard, and equalling that of the Time Devourer. Considering that Serge can destroy the things, whereas no mortal can kill one of the Valar (save for Turin killing Melkor at the end of days... but he is counted amongst the Maiar or maybe even Valar in that account), they have greater strength than Lavos. For is even Melkor killed in defeat at the end of the First Age? No! He is only cast out! In fact, the only reason they have temporal weakness at all is because they chose, for love of Elves and Men, to enter into the world. It was not a forced thing for them, but a choice. But they weren't constrained by time, and existed in power far mightier than the Time Devourer was, for they stood by Eru, the One, who had the power to make the Void not Void with the Flame Imperishable.

he'd have a hell of a time beating Lavos, because of the 100 TT blast figure for Chixulub; a Star Destroyer's heavy turbolaser cannons puke out 100 TT per shot (a figure derived from the Imperial Base Delta Zero operation, a horrendous war crime surpassed in sheer magnitude only by a Death Star strike), and Lavos survived that without so much as a scratch.  It was implied in Chrono Cross that given enough time Lavos could have absorbed enough energy to devour the universe, and then he would have basically been a God.  

No. That is his folly and arrogance, to think that such a minor act could make him god. Power, dominion, that does not define God alone. For Lavos still had a beginning, and as such, can never be God, who had none. But as far as the power goes... I am confident that the Valar, save Melkor who later foolishly bound himself to the confines of his dark lord form, could survive a Star Destroyer blast. Energy calculations... that sort of thing is meaningless when you speak of angels and archangels!

I suppose the main connection between Christ and Crono here is not any kind of messianic belief, but the fact that understanding is dispensed through their actions to the rest of humankind.  Jesus said that he brought a new understanding of the Mosaic Law, instead of just destroying it altogether.  Oddly enough (or perhaps expectedly, depending on your point of view) that's how science and understanding in general grows; not by revolution but by evolution.  Even Einstein's "revolutionary" theory of special relativity was based upon James Clerk Maxwell's electromagnetism, which though a landmark was not revolutionary in and of itself.  All the old laws of physics didn't just suddenly stop working when Einstein published his paper.

Not at all. Jesus did not bring a new understanding, he fulfilled what always was there. There is a distinction, and that is the Christian belief.

Feanor as a guy...hmm...I actually have a bit of a history with the name.  There was this chick sophomore year who was as much of a Lord of the Rings fanatic as Daniel is, and just as pagan as he is Christian.  Don't ask me how that happened; I still haven't figured it out.  I can remember wanting to nail her mightily, but that never panned out and she moved to Oklahoma to hang out with ZeaLitY and Co.  Anyway, her name was Rachel, but everyone called her Fay.  The reasons for that were twofold; one was for the classical name for faeries, since everyone in the class agreed that faeries were hawt.  (The class was chemistry and the teacher was one of the reasons I almost got turned off of physics; we used to talk about witchcraft just to piss her off.)  The other reason was for Feanor, since she loved Lord of the Rings.  She inspired me to take my own insignia, which is something akin to a distorted symbol of Xel'lo'tath, as well as to do a lot of other things that guys do when they're by themselves with a dirty magazine.  (Yeah, yeah, I'm tactless, you can put your jaws back in place now.)

Well, I've never heard Fëanor called a Fay, I think 'gnome' would be a more technical term, as that is a debasement of the word Nom, or wisdom, in Noldorin. Luthien, however, she was called Luthien the Fay. But yes, Fëanor was a guy. He was, in fact, the greatest of all Elves. But his own will and fiery spirit (which is the meaning of his name, 'spirit of fire') led to his death. The second greatest of the Elves... well, she doesn't die. This is Galadriel.

One cannot justify an omnipotent God in the Christian sense of the word to coexist with free will. So, in other words, no; under our knowledge of philosophy thus far, it is impossible to justify free will and divine foreknowledge existing together, but divine foreknowledge is not the same thing as fate. Perhaps this is one of the changes made to an ideal universe?

The choice offered by Christianity is essentially this: Believe this and you'll go to heaven. Don't believe it and you burn in hell, but it's still your choice. That's like putting someone at gunpoint and saying you can give me all your money or you can die, but it's still your choice. This is the viewpoint taken by the literalist faction of Christianity, anyway; I say it can't be justified because no solution offered has satisfied me, which renders it a matter of faith. I once thought about a framework similar to the Chrono series, in that God knows all possible timelines, but if he doesn't know what you will choose he isn't omniscient. The fact is the guy with the gun has the authority, and he's going to get your money one way or the other.

Using this train of logic, vehement atheists often portray God as a sadistic monster; a monster much like Lavos, actually. This is the primary line of thought used to refute Pascal's wager. Chrono on the other hand extoles the virtue of free will, and argues that victory against Lavos IS a human action, seeing as the Entity is made out to be hypocritical and selfish in Chrono Cross. Even though the Entity has a hand in Lavos' destruction, it didn't directly attack the beast. It took humans who were strong and courageous enough to decide to do something about it for Lavos to be destroyed; all Crono had to do to thwart the Entity's attempt at fate was to decide not to fight Lavos. If atheists are correct in their logic of an evil God, he will be a virtual Lavos clone.

Actually, you can justify it. If God knows the outcome, but allows the choice, the choice remains free, even if to the eyes of God it is fated. You did not exactly make a striking argument in that paragraph: you yourself said that divine foreknowledge is not the same as fate. Now, since foreknowledge does not actually determine or dominate a choice, it can still be seen as free will. However, since God does guide things, at least certain things must be set up to His will, and thus no, we do not have free will... and I'm just content with that. To our minds, it seems as though we do, so the illusion does fine, so long as I remember that I'm accountable to a higher power.

But you bring up a good point in the second paragraph, which leads me to this comment: in matters of salvation, there is truly no choice or free will. There is no middle ground, and if you believe the Bible, you cannot say otherwise. If you are not for me, you are against me. That is what Jesus says. You cannot do things your own way and expect to be save based on some strange merit: you must do things God's way. I take no middle ground on this, and all the theology I have ever learned from my father, and he is indeed knowledgeable in this field through many years of study, keep me fast in it. There is no personal way to God. Believe and be saved, refuse and be damned. It's an offer open to everyone, and you cannot accept it, for it is a gift. One can only reject. Really, I have no wish to sound preachy, and I'm no literalist in Old Testament interpretation, but I am confessional, and our sort holds fast and adamant to faith in all things, and hold it to be something above and beyond feeling and personal whims, and disavow he existance of a personal Jesus. He is a great Prince who stands as mediator before the judgement seat of a terrible and almighty God, and begs pardon for our sins. Good deeds do not avail one here. Good people go to hell. One cannot call it unfair, because that would be arrogance. 'Let all mortal flesh keep silence, and with fear and trembling stand. Ponder nothing earthly minded, for with blessing in his hand, Christ our God to earth decending, comes our homage to demand'; this is one of my favourite hymns: sombre, serious, and respectful.
Looking back... man am I adamant, eh? It's not my place to condemn anyone, so I don't wish to do that, I just take my faith as something not to be trifled with, and to not stray from based on the whims of culture. Contrary to outward appearance, it actually gives on a very joyful outlook on the world.



Anyway, two last comments, and I hope them to be last: it really is meaningless to bring in technological points into something that, by all reason, is either magical or angelic. So I don't think power calculations really have much bearing on anything in so far as Lord of the Rings goes. What you have to remember in it all is that Tolkien meant it as a near copy of his own belief in the Roman Catholic angeology. Now, I'm Lutheran, so I don't ascribe to that whole formal ordering of things, but if you do believe in angels as the messengers and stewards of God in this world, take what Tolkien wrote to be a treatise on his beliefs of that. What he wrote, after all, was still grounded in what he firmly believed to be the truth of the world. So the clearest way to speak of the power of the Valar is to say they have the same presence and power as angels do in our world. Now, consider that.

The second thing is... what the hell are we doing talking about this? I know, I know, it is largely my fault, but let us steer this back. I was maintainting my stance on the subject of the representation of hell and Lavos and, as I think everyone now knows and understands it, I can let it rest, and I can let you and ZeaLitY do what you will with it: it's always meant only as suggestions, anyway, and if you use any bit of it well, that's nice. So... what's the next topic?

[teh Schala]

So... what's the next topic?

Um...  Schala?  

[Hadriel]

I guess the whole discussion was trying to get philosophical perspective on Lavos.  And if you'll remember, I'm a bad excuse for a Christian.  In fact, I'm basically agnostic, but I consider atheism a largely untenable point of view due to the mere existence of abstract philosophical ideas, none of which were necessarily religious in origin.  Oh yeah, and I think Jesus was 1337.

Varda made every star in the sky, you say?  Whoo...now that's power.  They say Sith Lords and ancient Jedi could rip the cores out of stars; the Death Star could probably blow one up, too, but jeez.  My idea of Lavos here post-apotheosis (or in actual Chrono canon, post-release-of-version-2.0) would have the power to make every star in the sky, but does that really qualify someone for being a god?  For practical purposes it does, but what separates a normal sentient from a God, who is presumably sentient and decides what's moral and what's not?  Lavos, as he represents staunch, unfeeling Darwinism and oppression, could decide in his new universe that there are no rules.  And since he'd be the most powerful being in the universe, nobody'd argue with him.  This situation is actually a situation much like the evil God thing.

[Daniel Krispin]

They say Sith Lords and ancient Jedi could rip the cores out of stars; the Death Star could probably blow one up, too, but jeez.  My idea of Lavos here post-apotheosis (or in actual Chrono canon, post-release-of-version-2.0) would have the power to make every star in the sky, but does that really qualify someone for being a god?  For practical purposes it does, but what separates a normal sentient from a God, who is presumably sentient and decides what's moral and what's not?  Lavos, as he represents staunch, unfeeling Darwinism and oppression, could decide in his new universe that there are no rules.  And since he'd be the most powerful being in the universe, nobody'd argue with him.  This situation is actually a situation much like the evil God thing.

Alright, sorry for making a reply on the Star Wars thing, but this is just a comment, no argument... where does it say that? Because I've always thought that something like that would be neat. That is what I like about Star Wars, and why I find it such good fantasy: the ancient is more powerful than the new. The ancient Jedi and Sith, capable of such things? That would be a grand battle. Once again, Star Wars comes through with its ancient feel. I absolutely loved it when Kreia in KOTORII speaks of the ancient sword-masters as being far greater than those of the current times. It just gives me the chills. The ancient time of heroes... I like Tolkein better, but there's no denying the grandeur of Star Wars.

Anyway, I suppose I just have to realize that the Chrono universe is not, and never will be, Christian, despite what I might like. Oh, well, that's why I stopped writing fanfiction, and begain writing my own things...

So, Jack-a-Roonie said Schala is the new discussion? What aspect of her?

[Hadriel]

I don't usually like the concept of the ancient being more powerful than the new, because I'm down with technological progress and all that; I suppose this is why I'm a fan of the New Jedi Order, when Luke demonstrates some of these "ancient Jedi" caliber skills.  At one point he moves one of the Yuuzhan Vong singularities generated by a capital-grade dovin basal onto the ship it came from, thus consuming it; he didn't even use his full power.  Kyp Durron was the only other Jedi that managed to, and he almost killed himself in the attempt.  In The Unifying Force, Luke kills several thousand Yuuzhan Vong warriors and several specialized Jedi-slayers engineered by the Yuuzhan Vong.  No denying it: Skywalkers pwn.

The Tales of the Jedi comics contain information on the wacked-out powers of the ancient Jedi and Sith.

If it makes you feel any better, even though Chrono may not be Christian, it's part of that universe both morally and historically, just as it's part of the roots of our current civilization in real life.  For better or worse, it's there, and it probably isn't going away anytime soon.

Anyway, to Schala...I'd recommend doing as Jake said before we got caught up in a moral debate; change one of the tiles that no one uses to be "la."

[teh Schala]

I was just playing around... *shrug*  We all know I'm obsessed with her, so I thought I'd play on the opportunity to bring her up.

And yeah, I suggested replacing the tile for the Infinity sign.

[Hadriel]

A'ight, next topic: What happens in the El Nido scenario?

[Oswego del Fuego]

So... what's the next topic?

Um...  Schala?  

Sounds good to me.    Actually, I found the preceding philosophical discussion to be rather interesting, but it made me a little reluctant to post, 'cause... I, like, didn't want to interrupt!

Anyway, getting back to Crimson Echoes, I have a question regarding Atropos.  There was a suggestion early on that Atropos be, perahps, temporarily playable.  It has also been noted that Robo has very little to do in the story as-is.

Have you guys considered swapping out Robo for Atropos altogether?  I think it might be cool if Robo stuck around at Chronopolis, as Belthasar's "new Nu," as it were.  We already know from Cross that Prometheus becomes central to Belthasar's designs, so why not plant the seeds here?

Of course, there is the problem of "Atropos" being a whopping SEVEN CHARACTERS LONG!  

Oh, and about nixing an existing character in the Chrono font in favor of combined letters.  I think it's a good idea if there are blank spots in the font, but if existing characters must be removed (like the infinity symbol), doesn't that get away from the idea of Temporal Flux being an engine by which one can create an ideal Trigger remake?  Of course, one could argue that expanding the menus is equally, ummm, blasphemous (!?), but I think the idea of expanding Trigger's palette is preferable to that of simply altering it, or omitting parts of it.

Anyway.  To be honest, I feel a little presumptuous saying anything about this.  You all have done such a wonderful job.  It's clear that you really don't need anyone else's help.  I hope my remarks are only taken for what the are -- random comments from an interested outsider.

OdF

[teh Schala]

As soon as we say we don't need anyone else's help, we'll all fall flat on our faces.

I'd agree about the Infinity symbol, but it's just that when comparing (1) extend the font by 1 tile for however long that may take (it could take a *WHILE*) or (2) replace a symbol that is rarely, if ever, used.  Infinity fits the bill there, as it's only used once (End Of Time), and it's not even necessary.  In fact from what I've read, I don't think the End Of Time will even be accessible anymore, now that 2302 AD serves as the home base.  Just like no one really WANTED to get rid of Ayla, Infinity might be the best one to ditch if we have to pick one.

Atropos...hmm...  We could have Marle mangle Atropos' name a few times, then she could get frustrated and say "Crono, let's give her a SHORTER name!"  Other than that, who knows...

[Hadriel]

@OdF: Hey, you're a Chrono oldbie; you deserve input on this.  There's got to be some sort of a Prometheus sidequest that finishes fleshing out the line of thought begun in CT and added onto in CE.  Atropos is wounded early on in the game, and is unable to fight well to begin with.  Then, during the break, Robo kills a lot of humans and talks philosophically with Lucca.  What would be the logical final piece of that that would make him agree, in the ending, to become a rebellious circuit?  Just as Lavos asks "What is a god?" Robo asks "What makes a man?"

[Daniel Krispin]

@OdF: Hey, you're a Chrono oldbie; you deserve input on this.  There's got to be some sort of a Prometheus sidequest that finishes fleshing out the line of thought begun in CT and added onto in CE.  Atropos is wounded early on in the game, and is unable to fight well to begin with.  Then, during the break, Robo kills a lot of humans and talks philosophically with Lucca.  What would be the logical final piece of that that would make him agree, in the ending, to become a rebellious circuit?  Just as Lavos asks "What is a god?" Robo asks "What makes a man?"

Alright, I may know more of theology than you - I think - but I bet you know more philosophy. If such a question is asked by him, you should tie in what you know of philosophers that have adressed the question.

[ZeaLitY]

Daniel, I have a request. I need a wise saying in Latin, if you can suffice, or another language (translated into English characters), that says something about Zeal. I'm going to make that inscription on the Sealed Pyramid base able to be read. The actual text it needs to display is "heaven lies below." You can rearrange that anyway you like as long as the basic meaning is preserved.

It's talking about the rest of the North Palace, which in the Prerelease lay below the Sealed Pyramid. We might restore that in CE.