Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development

[Hadriel]

@Daniel: Theology's a part of philosophy, and it's also a part of the Chrono story at least to an extent; that's why we need your input.  That and all the cool weapon drawings.  How are the Arco Iris and Ara Dei sheath coming?

[Daniel Krispin]

Daniel, I have a request. I need a wise saying in Latin, if you can suffice, or another language (translated into English characters), that says something about Zeal. I'm going to make that inscription on the Sealed Pyramid base able to be read. The actual text it needs to display is "heaven lies below." You can rearrange that anyway you like as long as the basic meaning is preserved.

It's talking about the rest of the North Palace, which in the Prerelease lay below the Sealed Pyramid. We might restore that in CE.

As I've said, I really don't know much Greek and Latin. What I do know is where to find it. So to keep from seeming over-smart always giving out these words and the like, this site called Perseus, which is a scholarly compilation of various lexicons, has English to Greek and Latin translators.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_PersInfo.html

I'll look there right now, but just so you know, for future reference, I don't know any of this off the top of my head. Wait... I sort of know heaven, and I do know 'below' in Latin. Cerulean comes from 'heaven', and sub is below. I'm not sure if the Latin would use the word 'lies' in that case, though. Maybe just 'is', ie. est?

Alright, here we go. Heaven in nomnative case is 'caelestis' - and in Greek, man I should have known this, it is ouranios. I know that below is 'sub'. So that just leaves 'lies'.

Hmmm... maybe I'm thinking wrong here, but I don't know if the Latin needs a 'lies'. Moreover, since there is not quite the same rigid sentence ordering as we have, things might get confusing. 'Est' means 'is', so one maybe could say Caelestis est sub, though on second thought that looks more like Heaven is something that is below.

Honestly, I think in Latin, it may just be 'Caelestis Sub'. You'll want a second opinion on that, but that's my guess. The only problem would be because I'm uncertain of how the word order is done, if things might be translated as 'under heaven' rather than 'heaven under [this]'.

Now, the Greek. This will be harder, as I don't know the grammar at all. Hmmm... well, kata is 'downwards', I know that much. So perhaps 'heaven downwards' is an acceptable Greek version of that, that could be translated as what you wish. Say 'Ouranios Kata' ... well, it seems that 'hup' is used in a lot of compounds for things being under, either caverns underneath, or silver underneath, or whatever,

Thus 'Hupouranios' may well say all of that in a single word. Or, maybe, 'Ouranios Hupapuramis', or Heaven Under the Pyramid.

So, that's about it. Oh, and the weapons... didn't draw any yesterday. I was planning on doing that today yet, though. Anything specifically you want for it?

[ZeaLitY]

I suppose not; Lucca's weapon can be a simple flintlock gun.

I suppose I'll opt for the Greek, as it seems very interesting. I'm sure we'll leave some players scratching their heads at that, which might just stimulate some discussion.

[Daniel Krispin]

The one word or the two? I recommend the two.

And just looking at it... man have I been a fool. Of course! 'Under' in Greek is hupo: we spell it hypo usually, as in hypodermic. It's a bad Anglisization, though, which is why I recommend not using it. You see, the letter we spell as 'y' is actually an upsilon, a distinct u. Thus cyclops was in origin Kuklops, pronounced roughly Ku-klops (though the u is not like ours, more like the higher French or German umlaudt u) Anyway, though, just keep it as the u. It looks different from the word hypo (just like pyramid has a u, too), and is more accurate.

[Shadow_Dragon]

Latin > Greek
Caelestis is an Adj. meaning heavenly, not heaven (if you just has 'Caelestis' by itself it means 'Heavenly man/person', or as http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ puts it, a dweller in heaven)
Caelum is the world I know for heaven because it also means sky, but there're others that I think are used less commonly
Latito means to lie hidden, which might work... there's also cubo for lying in down or in bed, which also might work

So, it'd be: Caelum sub latitat/cubat.

[Daniel Krispin]

Latin > Greek
Caelestis is an Adj. meaning heavenly, not heaven (if you just has 'Caelestis' by itself it means 'Heavenly man/person', or as http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ puts it, a dweller in heaven)
Caelum is the world I know for heaven because it also means sky, but there're others that I think are used less commonly
Latito means to lie hidden, which might work... there's also cubo for lying in down or in bed, which also might work

So, it'd be: Caelum sub latitat/cubat.

Of course, I made a mistake. Perseus even shows Caelestis as being heavenly, I don't know how I messed that up. Thanks for the corrects.

But, personally, I would say that Greek sounds nicer than Latin, partially because it is less familiar, and has longer words with more exotic letters. Latin has Anax, Greek Basileus. Dominus (likely the wrong ending) to Anax. And as for names... well, look at the difference in the list:

Jupiter/Jove, Juno, Minerva, Venus, Diana, Apollo, Mars, Pluto (though this IS Greek), Neptune, Saturn, Mercury, Vulcan, Bacchus (though I think this is a Greek word, too), Vesta, Ceres.

compared to this:

Zeus, Hera, Athene, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Ares, Hades, Poseidon, Kronos, Hermes, Hephaistos, Dionysus, Hestia, Demeter.

Now, which list sounds better?

[Shadow_Dragon]

I like my latin
Anyway, I'm not familiar with Greek at all (I think in the second half of my senior year we'll learn Greek in Latin class), but aren't the english spellings inherently different than what they should be because of lack of Greek characters? That's my only problem with using Greek names; if we could put the phrase in using Greek letters, that'd be aweomse, but I awesome that that's out of the question...

P.S. - I assume, I don't awesome.

[teh Schala]

On a different note, there's a fairly widely-accepted theory that states that Miguel (Leena's father) in Chrono Cross is actually Crono.  If we interpret this as true, we may want to consider integrating Wazuki (Miguel's close friend, and father of Serge) at some point.  Wazuki could perhaps be a knight captain who serves under Crono.  Anyway, just a thought that we might want to consider.

[Daniel Krispin]

On a different note, there's a fairly widely-accepted theory that states that Miguel (Leena's father) in Chrono Cross is actually Crono.  If we interpret this as true, we may want to consider integrating Wazuki (Miguel's close friend, and father of Serge) at some point.  Wazuki could perhaps be a knight captain who serves under Crono.  Anyway, just a thought that we might want to consider.

Hmmm... never heard of that. Well, I don't know if it goes amongst the accepted theories of the Compendium, and because it is based on mere assumption, and has many things that counter it (say, hair-colour, the words of the ghosts, personality), it likely is not the case, any more than Serge is Janus. However, that does not make the concept of integrating these characters wholly bad, and a foreshadowing cameo would be interesting. I suppose El Nido does not appear proper, but knowing that the Acacia Dragoons fought upon Zenan, it is likely that the islanders did as well. The Dragoons were the ruling power and military elite, and likely would have recruited from amongst the peasants for the rank-and-file troops. Miguel and Wazuki could easily be amongst these as two young soldiers in the armies of the Dragoons, perhaps upon the side of Porre.

[ZeaLitY]

The only widely accepted aspect of it is that it is an interesting coincidence, but is very unlikely. There is no explicit and little implicit evidence for it, and it is merely something to say "hm" at. I would go as far as to say that little of what we've concluded is widely accepted by Chrono fans by virtue of our not being able to reach the better part of them currently.

[teh Schala]

Well, for starters, the hair color of Miguel does match that of Crono, though his style is more "tame."  He's ludicrously powerful for being just a simple "fisherman," and how else would the guy know so much about the original Chrono Trigger/Lavos situation...unless he was there?  And they gave some pretty decent reasons as to why he'd end up there if he was Crono.

Though I can't recall all the details (though you can easily find the theory's details by searching on Google for crono/miguel), it basically states that when Porre invaded Guardia, Crono (being the prince by marriage, and heir to the throne) had to stay safe, along with his own child.  When the kingdom was essentially smashed to bits, Nadia's fate was unknown (although we can assume she would be either captured, killed, or in hiding somewhere plotting rebellion), and Crono would have to remain undercover and in disguise.  Hence the glasses (which he may have gotten from Lucca) and fishing hat, and the overall guise of a fisherman.

Also, take a good look at Leena, Miguel's daughter.  Crono's hair color, with Nadia's face...and the name, notably reminiscent of Leene, one of Nadia's ancestors.  Likely she was named after Leene, whom Nadia was very close with.  True, we don't have much CONCRETE evidence...but in all our theories on the Compendium, do we really have much that is truly concrete?

EDIT: I *DO NOT* want this to become a debate.  Take it or leave it.  That's just my reason for pushing to have Wazuki in the game as a friend of Crono's.

[Hadriel]

Well, the mathematics we use here tends to hold up in the context of Chrono.  I'd rather not bother with Wazuki, if only because it wouldn't have much of a point.

[Oswego del Fuego]

Jake-A-Roonie:  I actually like the idea of Marle suggesting a shorter name for Atropos.  It fits.  I mean, I can't see Crono and friends referring to Robo as "Prometheus."  Not ever.  In the same vein, I think Marle especially would be uncomfortable with a name like Atropos.

Hadriel and Jake-A-Roonie:  Thanks for saying that my input is welcome.  I very much appreciate that.  

Hadriel:  I'm glad to hear that you already have plans for continuing the philisophical trail that Robo was set upon in Trigger.  I've been a little concerned about the lack of attention he's received so far in the discussion of Crimson Echoes.  As I say, however, you all have done an awesome job to date, and hearing you suggest that Robo's seeming omission is due only to his subquest not being developed YET is reassuring.

As for including Wazuki and Miguel in the battles of 1005 AD, I'm not sure about this.  Miguel especially does not strike me as a warrior (if left to his own, at least).  Also, since the Dragoons appear to be a very elite force, I can't see them accepting "just anybody" to fight in a major conflict, though I cede that Miguel and Wazuki would have been old enough to particpate, and Wazuki may well be the one responsible for Serge's skill with a blade.

Also, not to start a debate, but I don't get the Crono = Miguel thing at all.  Sorry.

Oh, and regarding Crono, I doubt he would ever be King of Guardia.  Guardia royalty seems to operate in much the same fashion as traditional European monarchy.  If this is the case, Nadia, as the sole heir of Guardia XXXIII, would become the new monarch--a ruling queen or queen-by-right or Queen Regnant or whatever--while her spouse, not being an heir-by-right on his own merits, could only become a Prince Consort or somesuch.  Of course, it's possible that Guardia's royalty doesn't operate in the traditional way, but it seems to be the usual "male line" type of monarchy familiar to our own history.

OdF

[Daniel Krispin]

Jake-A-Roonie:  I actually like the idea of Marle suggesting a shorter name for Atropos.  It fits.  I mean, I can't see Crono and friends referring to Robo as "Prometheus."  Not ever.  In the same vein, I think Marle especially would be uncomfortable with a name like Atropos.

Hadriel and Jake-A-Roonie:  Thanks for saying that my input is welcome.  I very much appreciate that.  

Hadriel:  I'm glad to hear that you already have plans for continuing the philisophical trail that Robo was set upon in Trigger.  I've been a little concerned about the lack of attention he's received so far in the discussion of Crimson Echoes.  As I say, however, you all have done an awesome job to date, and hearing you suggest that Robo's seeming omission is due only to his subquest not being developed YET is reassuring.

As for including Wazuki and Miguel in the battles of 1005 AD, I'm not sure about this.  Miguel especially does not strike me as a warrior (if left to his own, at least).  Also, since the Dragoons appear to be a very elite force, I can't see them accepting "just anybody" to fight in a major conflict, though I cede that Miguel and Wazuki would have been old enough to particpate, and Wazuki may well be the one responsible for Serge's skill with a blade.

Also, not to start a debate, but I don't get the Crono = Miguel thing at all.  Sorry.

Oh, and regarding Crono, I doubt he would ever be King of Guardia.  Guardia royalty seems to operate in much the same fashion as traditional European monarchy.  If this is the case, Nadia, as the sole heir of Guardia XXXIII, would become the new monarch--a ruling queen or queen-by-right or Queen Regnant or whatever--while her spouse, not being an heir-by-right on his own merits, could only become a Prince Consort or somesuch.  Of course, it's possible that Guardia's royalty doesn't operate in the traditional way, but it seems to be the usual "male line" type of monarchy familiar to our own history.

OdF

Actually, Miguel's look and calling of a fisherman does not really mean that he could not have been a soldier once. True, the Dragoons appear to be more elite (then again, the fisherboy Serge defeats them as he breaks into Viper manor...) I think if they went to war, they'd raise a call to arms, and recruit from the villages. If they were hot-heated young boys in that time, they could easily have joined the ranks. I'm sure there are many in history that were warriors in their youth, but mellowed later on. Socrates, after all, was a hoplite before his was a philosopher. And I remember the stories of the general that led Rome in a certain campaign (was it against the Sabines?) preferred his farm, and returned again after the troubles were over. Miguel strikes me as this sort, I think. Imagine him far younger, before family life mellowed him. I truly think they could be a cameo, perhaps as Crono and the rest just over-hear them speaking to each other of home, or joking around, in passing at one point. That's all I mean. It is not implausable by any measure, and would be a nice cameo.

But anyway, his hair colour is brownish-red, Crono's is crimson red. And the explanation for his power: FATE put him there as a guardian, and presumably gave him this power.

[Shadow_Dragon]

Ok, a question about El Nido and Porre:
Isn't the accepted theory that we're using in Crimson Echoes that Porre rose in military strength in the new timeline because of El Nido? If that's the case, they shouldn't be so militarized at the beginning of the game, because at that point El Nido still doesn't exist as much as it didn't in Chrono Trigger. However, I do think it'd be cool for the time crash to happen near the end of the game (there are going to be a bunch of sidequests like in CT, right? in that case, the time cras could happen right before the sidequests) and after that point allow El Nido to explore... However, this contradicts the storyline, seeing as we can't completely admit anything about Porre's military up until the time crash

Did anything of what I said make sense?

P.S.: Does the Chrono Break allow Sorin to time-travel? It seems like he randomly appears in different time periods without explanation...