Author Topic: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development  (Read 60896 times)

Janus Zeal

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #525 on: September 09, 2005, 08:02:09 pm »
Question about Schala's move list: As it stands now (unless I've missed something) Schala has few damaging attacks. While this may fit her character, perhaps a few "damage all enemies" double techs with Janus could be created.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #526 on: September 11, 2005, 03:17:44 am »
A comment about the words written on the pyramid that I translated into Greek for the demo (to the best of my ability). I was learning some actual Greek today (that is, declensions and the like, rather than just the words), and I think, maybe, a better translation for it would be something like HO OURANIOS ESTIN HUPO TAYN PURAMIN; the order of these words is, I think, irrelavent. What is there now is OURANIOS HUPOPURAMIS. Now, ZeaLitY had wished it to mean something like 'under here lies heaven'. That was the closest I could come up with at the time, and means essentially 'heaven under-pyramid'. However, this new phrase takes into account (as best as I've been able to figure with what I learned today) the noun cases, particularly nomnative and accusative. Ouranios was correct, but the word for 'pyramid' would be in the accusative (or, at least, for a translation of 'heaven is under the pyramid' which is what I used now.) - I think. Estin is the verb 'to be'. I've assumed that heaven, Ouranios, is masculain, thus the 'ho' (technically 'o) preceeding it - though I could not clearly discern it in the lexicon. Pyramid, however, appears to be feminine, thus the change in ending - I hope I did that aright - and the addition of the article 'tayn', which is feminine accusative. Note that on all of these I have gone phonetic, and neither used the standard transliteration of Greek, nor the actual spelling. The standard spelling would use 'y' for several of the u's, and a simple 'e' for tayn (thus 'ten'). However, hypo is not haipo or hippo, but rather different in sound, and a u better represents that. Likewise, the e is not a short e, but an eta, and that is a long e, which sounds like ay - I figured an ay is thus more accurate.

Anyway, long story short, the revised writing should read thus, to the best of my current knowledge (and meaning 'heaven is under the pyramid'):

HO OURANIOS ESTIN HUPO TAYN PURAMIN

(Oh, and the word order is largely irrelevant, I think, as the endings show the sentence structure. I'd leave 'heaven' at the beginning though, as that seems to emphasise it more, which I believe is the desired result.)

Hadriel

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #527 on: September 16, 2005, 05:18:39 pm »
OK, finally, here are some plot-related thoughts from me:

I've been debating coming up with an entirely new and different scheme for Lavos.  As one can see, basically every other RPG is about becoming "the ultimate being" or whatever, so I'm thinking, what fits with Lavos' motivation but is also different from what's been done before?

Also, Exodus has raised some questions about King Zeal; namely, the concept of him as the villain.  I need posts from all plot advisors to relate their thoughts on that.  This project needs a kick in the tailpipe.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #528 on: September 16, 2005, 09:09:41 pm »
Thinking about the Greek some more, I'm again not fully certain. What I'm not sure about is the case that the words take after 'under'. It seems that both accusative (which is what I last used) and dative is alright and mean the same thing, but I'm a little unsure now. Moreover, I think that using 'is' in this case is a little lame. Perhaps 'sits' is a little nearer to 'lies', because it can mean, in some respect, to rest or be somewhere. In that case, the sentence should now read:

HO OURANIOS KATHITSEI HUPO TAYN PURAMIN

That is still retaining the accusative case... I think. Pyramid may not end 'IN' in the accusative female, but it's an awkward one being of Egyptian descent. Now, it's an odd thing that the lexicon does, and I'm at a loss to explain it. It gives the article as being an aspirated eta (that is, 'HAY'), which usually signifies something as female (in the very basics of Greek that I have learned so far, at any rate.) However, it also gives '-idos' after it which, adding it to the word gives 'puramidos', which has a distinctly masculine ending. This, I suppose, would thus be a feminine word (because of the article), yet following masculine declension rules. But since I know so little Greek, I really don't know how this works. The closest I found to an explanation that made sense to me is that, apparently, some nouns of the third declension that end with a vowel look similar to 'puramis', a notable one being 'polis' - one that also has the usually female article 'HAY'. Now, the accusative for polis is polin. Assuming that pyramid follows the same declension (though this is just a guess), and that it is indeed in the accusative after the world 'under' (again, a guess), the sentence would looks as I wrote just before this paragraph. The translation now would be 'Heaven sits under the pyramid'.

ADDENDUM:
Alright, I just found the perfect word for this: 'HUPOKEIMAI', which essentially means 'lie under'. Unfortunately, the only verbs I'm familiar with are those ending in 'ei' (such as the 'to sit' KATHITSEI... which is rather he/she/it sits, with KATHITSEIS being second person and KATHITSOH being first person); this one is a little foreign to me at the time, and Perseus lists it as being a specific sort of form. From what I can make out, most would fit this instance that we need it for... but I'm not sure if it's in the right 'person'; I think this is first person, but we would need third, and I can't conjugate it. So I suppose there's the option of leaving the verb 'to sit' in place as I have it - and am quite certain is correct - or guessing and either putting in HUPOKEIMAI as it is (of course, it negates the need for the other HUPO) or pasting on another conjugation such as 'EI' onto the end; these latter two would likely look horrendous to anyone that actually knows ancient Greek so, until I can figure out just how this would be conjugated, I would rule in favour of keeping KATHITSEI in there.

ADDENDUM II:
I asked my father about the word Pyramid, and he, after looking through some declension tables, is of the opinion that it rather follows some odd irregular form of the third declension, and should rather be puramida. Thus for another time, the line should be:

HO OURANIOS KATHITSEI HUPO TAYN PURAMIDA

Or, you can put the verb kathitsei at the end, if you wish.
I know, this is all a minor note. But it's rather fascinating for me, all this Greek, and quite like figuring through it.

Quote from: Hadriel
OK, finally, here are some plot-related thoughts from me:

I've been debating coming up with an entirely new and different scheme for Lavos.  As one can see, basically every other RPG is about becoming "the ultimate being" or whatever, so I'm thinking, what fits with Lavos' motivation but is also different from what's been done before?

Also, Exodus has raised some questions about King Zeal; namely, the concept of him as the villain.  I need posts from all plot advisors to relate their thoughts on that.  This project needs a kick in the tailpipe.


How about this: to gain ultimate understanding and knowledge. The purpose of his expansive power is not to rule as a tyrant, but was rather to learn about all things in the universe: a quest of self-betterment, as it were. Well, somewhere along the line, he went too far, that is plain, and stepped out of the boundaries set on such things.

Essentially what I'm saying is, why not make him an intergalactic Dr. Faustus? You would need a pretty diabolical Mephistopholes, though...

Exodus

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #529 on: September 16, 2005, 11:01:10 pm »
I like that idea.

It's better than what Hadriel and I were playing on earlier, which involved a sort of "Creator" and "Destroyer" type relationship; Crono is the living embodiment of the "Creator", with a bit of "Destroyer" added in, and likewise for Lavos.


Yeah.

Pretty lame, but it's good for five minutes of discussing ideas. =P

Hadriel

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« Reply #530 on: September 16, 2005, 11:49:51 pm »
You're forced to wonder why he wants the ultimate knowledge, though.  Perhaps we could incorporate a bit of the creator/destroyer instinct into it.  Life, in essence, is a repeating cycle of birth and death.  Our laws of physics dictate that in order to survive, we have to kill other living things.  This is what the Dragon God was bitching about in CC, and as goth/emo as it sounds, it has a point.  If Lavos were God, he could feasibly make up a new set of universal laws that did not require this.  If one believes in a Creator, one has to wonder why he didn't do this to begin with.  In the Abrahamic faiths, sin is cited as the reason.  Sin can be defined as any number of things by any number of people, but it is invariably the product of free choice, the virtue that the Chrono series exalts.  Yet we find it repulsive to be used as robots; we need free will, or the illusion of free will, in order to live and grow.  The only hope we're given is a Lifestream/heaven-type thing where displaced souls go.

This is part of the spirit of magic; not just the manipulation of the elements, but the actual creation of possibilities.  The Chrono Trigger almost certainly possessed the power of what would truly be defined as magic i.e. something that supersedes the laws of physics entirely.  The plotline we have now has Lavos and the Frozen Flame able to summon stuff out of the DBT with a continued power expenditure, but the Chrono Trigger can actually restore it for good, among other things.  In a lot of ways, even Lavos is a confused and tormented being; it just so happens that he's got bazillions of times more experience and knowledge to back him up.  Whatever the ending is in this must set the stage for his desire in Cross to devour everything.

Whatever Lavos is opposing, other than the Entity, would again have to be something pretty diabolical.  But that gets me to thinking: it's said that the Entity is at peace, but in CC it's up and trying to get rid of us.  What the hell is that?  There has to be a reason for its anger, other than ZOMGSEQUEL!  Also, one has to question what exactly a "natural" evolution would be.  It's said that the Reptites supposedly achieved an evolution much closer to that of the planet's desires, but what does that actually entail, and what's the end result that the planet's trying to get out of it?

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #531 on: September 17, 2005, 12:25:49 am »
Well, as you wish, it is your story after all. I was only hoping to give a little kick in the tailpipe, as you said.

As a suggestion of what the reason for knowledge could be... perhaps a fear of death? A fear of death could have lead him on a search for the secret of immortality, much like Gilgamesh - maybe even a comrade of his of the ancient world fell victim to this immortal power called 'death', and in fear of it he began searching the universe over for the secret of immortality. But unlike Gilgamesh who but finds immortality to be the secret of the gods, and unnattainable, he indeed found it, but in possessing it found it to be a terrible curse, for in time his strength failed in despite of his immortality, and he thus sought no longer for immorality, but for the power he was now lacking. And seeing how despicable his weakness was, he resolved to clothe himself in an aspect of supreme power, to be not only immortal but mighty beyond compare. Thus he sets into motion a plan of millions of years to take the life of worlds and make it his own (I suppose like Sephiroth and the meteor, but much more subtle and long-lasting an attempt.) This could also then account for his long sleep. But in his long life his mind has been scattered - for despite immortality, he is still a mortal in spirit, and his 'dream', as it were (borrowing the terminology from CC) has strayed so far from Zurvan, it has lost order and coherence. Thus he becomes insane, in some regard, even as his grand plan comes to fruition.

So, essentially, first comes a fear of death. From this stems the desire for immortality, knowledge being a pathway to this. To attain this, he makes a Faustian pact, either in some actual way with a mightier creature (the death itself, Thanatos, that he so greatly fears, maybe?*) or simply in a metaphorical way. But after many long years of this wise, intelligent, life, he begins to find that knowledge does not breed satisfaction, and that weakness still sets in - the death he avoided has been replaced by a wasting away. In terror of this he uses his supreme knowledge and dark-learned arts to perfect a plan to become mightier than aught else in the universe, so that he might never have to lack power, or fear for anything. So that he could live forever unassailable and without care. And whiles this occurs, his spirit has ceased being one of order, and has rather turned to chaos. So, that brings us to CT, and his master-plan of turning the earth into an immortal throne where he can live forever. But in all this, he has ceased to be 'human' (or whatever he was to begin with) - all that he was, defined by cares and even death and mortality, is gone, so what now is he? He is unique, a terror and tyrant who looks only to himself. But, in origin, he need not have been any more than a mighty Dr Faustus mingled with Gilgamesh; he may even have been a hero! The Chrono series is an epitaph to the tragedy of Lavos, then, for this wretched creature that wishes so much power and destruction was no more than what man is.

By the way, did you consider the Greek stuff?


*(Note: Read this after all the rest of the things) Yes, that may be it, that may be Mephistopholes and Satan in one in the Chrono world: death and nothingness. In Greek death would be Thanatos. But there are other powers yet older than Thanatos, perhaps throw versions of these together. The ancient four of Greek myth were Gaia - likely the entity in CT -, Chaos, Tartaros, and Eros, of which Chaos came first. In Chrono we already have Gaia taken care of. But what of Chaos, the eldest? What of Eros, that is Desire? Tartaros the Pit? The great creature Typheos the Terrible is born of the union of Gaia and Tartaros, maybe that give some story ideas for some boss, just as a side-thought. Alright, just bear with me here, the ideas are a little scattered in my mind, and my only hope is that you take them and somehow find some value or coherence in them that might be of use. These are basically how the Chrono world connects with Greek mythology; it might be something to continue on, to some extent. Now, as I was saying... Kronos the youngest of the Titans, at the bidding of his mother Gaia, took up an adamantine sickle and castrated Ouranos, allowing for the imprisioned hundred-handed, and various other creatures, to come out of Gaia. It also usurped Ouranos' position as supreme god. However, Kronos was surplanted by his own son Zeus. Now, take this connection: The planet as Gaia (plainly), Crono as Kronos, and Lavos as Ouranos (for Lavos did come from the heavens, and caused great pain to the earth, did he not?) What does the the Planet do? She takes a son of hers, one of the youngest (being born in a late age - remember, too, that Kronos is a son by Gaia and Ouranos... is not mankind in CC the progeny of the Earth corrupted by Lavos?) and giving him power sends him to render her vile opressor impotent. He succeeds, even as humanity succeeds in freeing earth from Lavos. But guess what! Kronos was an even worse tyrant than Ouranos, and Gaia conspires to rid herself of this new menace: mankind, her aforetimes saviour. Very much alike, eh? Now, obviously the rest of the tale, like the Time Devourer, and the like, don't connect exactly... but they don't have to. This is enough to cement a very typological similarity. What you can have thus is the history of Lavos/Ouranos before this, not the exact same, but borrowing ideas. Thus Gaia is older than Lavos, and Lavos itself is born of Gaia (or, at least, one of the 'Gaia's' of the universe.) This accounts, so far, for only one of the four original beings. Eros... connects everything, and needn't be directly addressed. Tartaros and Chaos, though. I cannot remember how they connect to Thanatos...
First, an interjection. This does not contradict with my Faustian idea with Lavos. That was a concrete story idea, of Lavos originating as a being on another planet. This is more of a mythical view of it, seeing Gaia as far older, and Lavos coming in the mists of prehistory as an oppressor, and Crono/mankind as a saviour at first, and later oppressor. Both still hold uncontrary. But now that the connection between my Faustian Lavos and the Ouranian Lavos is cleared up, I can connect him with what can be maybe the older and more powerful things that he fears as a Dr Faustus. It must be noted with extreme admonishion that these older powers should not be considered evil, or uber-bosses or uber-evils to outdo Lavos. He fears them, but they are simply the things of the Chrono universe, and not the enemy thereof. Thus Lavos, though he makes a pact with these things, is still the chief of evils. Just like one in old myth might make a pact with Hades, and become embittered through it, Hades remain not evil: he is pityless, but cannot be held to be evil. He just is what he is. Now, as I was saying...
I have to look at the Theogony for this. Alright, from Chaos comes Erebos (the Darkness) and Night. From Night comes Death (ie. Thanatos in Greek), Doom, and Fate. Now, I'm not sure how this all can go together, I admit. Basically, I would say, do only passing references to these other entities. Say that Lavos drew his power from hateful Night, being affrighted at the aspect of Thanatos, who had torn from him a dear friend. Or, even, make him go higher up: to Chaos. Tartaros doesn't need to be mentioned at all. But essentially, you can hint at the history to Lavos even as I've already outlined in the rest. But add that at the death of his ancient companion, he becomes terrified of Thanatos coming for him and tearing his life from him. So he begs that he might be spared his visit, and at long last discovers a way in which this might be done - his search for knowledge. At this an enraged Thanatos comes to him, crying that none may avoid him, and that when the hour that his brother Fate decides comes, then he will take his life from him. But Lavos cries to Thanatos' mother Night, imploring her to stay her son's hand, and then up to her father Chaos, who was before all else. And here comes the Mephistopholean bargain, though not Chaos, nor Night, nor Thanatos himself are actually evil the way Mephistopholes and Satan are. They grant that he, because of his great learning, first amongst mortal, need not fall to the hand of Thanatos, and Death consents - but it is a gift of Midas, a curse within a blessing, and they know it. For even as Tithonus the Trojan prince who gained immortality but not eternal youth, he begins wasting away, and forsees an eternity of impotence - more frightening even than death. So he looks now for power, and again cries to Chaos. He offers to give his soul to them, and not to Zurvan (Tartaros?), if they will grant him knowledge by which he can make himself powerful amongst immortals. They thus do, and thus he knows how to do those things that he later does. Certainly, though, Gaia must not be happy, but I daresay she could not do much against Chaos' displeasure. I stress again that these are impartial entities, not evil. It fits better that way.

Anyway, just some ideas. I hope they're useful. I obviously delved much into Greek myth.


So... thoughts? I hope someone at least read through all of that. It took me a while to formulate.

Hadriel

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #532 on: September 17, 2005, 01:04:46 am »
That's gonna take a hell of a long time to evaluate, but there's a lot of potential in that line of thinking.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #533 on: September 20, 2005, 05:40:55 pm »
Is anybody yet working on this? I mean, Hadriel was asking for ideas, but there's not nearly the volume of posts that there were aforetimes. I was just wondering if, at some time in the future, I would be required to draw more pictures. Just for the heck of it, I doodled some helmets (all historically inspired, of course, from Assyrian to Samnite and things such as that), but I'm not sure if such things will be needful. After all, it seems that few are working on it anymore. Or, at least, the lack of posts on these threads seems to indicate that.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #534 on: September 20, 2005, 07:21:22 pm »
And, er...

>_>

<_<

Has anyone seen my CT:CE logo in the other thread?

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #535 on: September 20, 2005, 07:24:51 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
And, er...

>_>

<_<

Has anyone seen my CT:CE logo in the other thread?


Yes, I did. But I've not replied to much of anything of late. But now that you mention it, the logo did indeed look very good, and fit the mood of the game - or what I perceive to be the mood - very well.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #536 on: September 23, 2005, 01:12:20 am »
My father got a microphone today, and just for the heck of it I thought I'd try it out, so I recorded that phrase that was in Greek. I find that I really can't do it justice using English letters, so this is essentially how it* would sound:
http://s4.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3KU2JMKZWIMDF1I1XD56GU2XNX
Doesn't Greek sound ever so much better than English?

*HO OURANIOS KATHITSEI HUPO TAYN PURAMIDA

(Shoot, sorry, I didn't realize I had posted last here. I'd just have edited it into the last one. Apologies, it was not my intent.)

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #537 on: September 23, 2005, 01:22:57 am »
We have a dire shortage of Temporal Flux users.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #538 on: September 23, 2005, 01:30:01 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
We have a dire shortage of Temporal Flux users.


Oh. That makes sense, now. Well, I'm no good at that program, I've found, so I'd be no help. Hopefully some people step forward so that this project can continue; I'd hate to see such promise fall away.

Janus Zeal

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« Reply #539 on: September 24, 2005, 01:46:03 pm »
I'd love to take the time to better learn TF Zeality, but right now it just isn't possible. Between school and work I don't have any time.