Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development

[ZeaLitY]

Yes, sorry my presence hasn't been known here for awhile. Thorn, would you be interested in reviewing the script as it comes? You'd get the beta patches.

To the public, the patches will be restricted, save for a demo here and there. Screenshots are fair game, however.

Anyway, I still have posts coming to talk about naming and also deal with some plot and theme issues. I just have to prepare the Compendium for its opening in the meantime. I checked the stats, and they're amazing; only 53% of our visitors come from the United States. Below the US is Canada, with 6%, and the EU (nonspecific) and Japan with 2%. Then comes a huge list of different countries, with six people visiting even from Israel. Yesterday, 700 unique people came to the site. I was blown away. I thought only a handful of hundreds actually visited, and just hung around all the time, but it seems that we're actually making it. I can't wait to open the site.

By the way, the "Programmer's Endign" for CTCE will feature anyone who would like to be in it.

[Hadriel]

Guardian: Yes, as a matter of fact we're changing the name to Pee Fee Bowlrunches.  

Thorn: I looked up your site -- some pretty awesome stuff.  You can definitely review the script as it comes if you want.

The major thing on my mind right now is what to name the Ancient boss in the first 11,998 B.C. scenario.  My first thought was Baal, after the pagan god of fertility so ubiquitous in the Torah.  Either that or Molech, the other pagan god most frequently mentioned -- the Bible records that worshippers of Molech sacrificed even children to their god.  However, both of those names have been yoinked already, so I'm a bit hesitant to use them without discussion -- Baal for the Diablo series, and Molech for Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  I would advocate the usage of Cthulhu, except that Cthulhu is too similar to Lavos -- not to mention that most people know about him.  They'd expect Cthulhu to be this insanely hyper-strong monster that nobody could beat, like Draco'dur in World of Warcraft or Uber Diablo.

Then again, we do need one of those as the obligatory optional boss for late in the game.  Thoughts?

[ZeaLitY]

I'm thinking that the ancient ones can appear in the Chrono Compendium library at Chronopolis as well as in the game. The Rainbow Shell could be the shell of a great, ancient nautilus, crushed beneath Lavos's weight and its materials refined in the heat. I've got a name for the enemy near Magus -- Glacek. At first, I was thinking something with a hard K sound, like Kracious, and the ice motif returned to me. I was able to integrate that k into the sleekness of "glace." What do you think?

[GreenGannon]

I just want to throw in my $0.02.

I was thinking, and what I liked about the games, was that there was always some sense of failure. Just that part to prove that the heroes are still human.

In CT, it was overestimating their strength, thus causing the death of Crono, (supposedly--although later proven wrong) Schala, and the rise of the Black Omen.

In CC, it was when the player realized that the Dragon Gods had used them to defeat FATE and free itself.

I just think it would be a nice touch to include something along these lines.

[Hadriel]

There's tragedy out the arse.  We've made damn sure of that.

In researching songs to rearrange, I've come to the conclusion that not all of them need remixes.  I'd like people to post a list of what songs need to be rearranged.  Please do not include the following, as they are either already under way, finished, or simply taken for granted:

-- Corridors of Time
-- Magus' Theme
-- Chrono Trigger Main Title
-- Peaceful Days
-- Morning Sunlight
-- At the Bottom of the Night

[Daniel Krispin]

The major thing on my mind right now is what to name the Ancient boss in the first 11,998 B.C. scenario.  My first thought was Baal, after the pagan god of fertility so ubiquitous in the Torah.  Either that or Molech, the other pagan god most frequently mentioned -- the Bible records that worshippers of Molech sacrificed even children to their god.  However, both of those names have been yoinked already, so I'm a bit hesitant to use them without discussion -- Baal for the Diablo series, and Molech for Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  I would advocate the usage of Cthulhu, except that Cthulhu is too similar to Lavos -- not to mention that most people know about him.  They'd expect Cthulhu to be this insanely hyper-strong monster that nobody could beat, like Draco'dur in World of Warcraft or Uber Diablo.

Then again, we do need one of those as the obligatory optional boss for late in the game.  Thoughts?

Well, Baal is simply 'lord', as I think you know. So, Molech is out? How about Mot, the Caananite god of the underworld? Too short probably.
Just be careful that you don't take something from myth just for the heck of it. It's okay to some extent, but gets obsurd when it comes to something like Xenosaga's 'Nephilim' which, at least as far as the first game portrayed, bore absolutely no resemblence at all to the source of the name; an ethereal woman can hardly be described as a giant, or a fallen hero of old, after all. That's just sloppy storytelling from people who think it cool to throw in Biblical/mythical allusions for the heck of it, but leaves those who actually know it scratching their head. Xenosaga seemed especially bad for that, actually.
Anyway... names... well, if it is some ancient lord, just about any of the gods of the middle-eastern regions will do. I'll rattle off as many as I can remember: Tanith, Astarte, Enlil, Enki, Tiamat, Marduk, Ea, Apsu, Anu, Ishtar, Innana, Kishar, Anshar, Qingu... you could probably get this if you went to the Encyclopedia Mythica, you know. I'd suggest looking there through the list of god's names till you find one that catches your eye, and then check to see if it is at all similar.
Also, and this can also be looked up on the Encyclopedia Mythica, perhaps for a Hellenic connection, some ancient Greek titan may work - although the more eastern names would likely be better. Just for suggestion's sake, I'll see if I can remember a few... One of the Hundred-handed, perhaps (they have a Greek name I cannot remember at the time.) There is also Atlas, though he is quite well known. Okeanos, the Sea, might be alright, depending on the nature of this ancient thing. Typheous (the y is actually ü, I think. And the spelling may be a little wrong...) He is last of the Titans, whom Zeus himself fights with the sickle of Kronos. Hesiod gives a full list, but I think Theogony went back to the library already, so I can't look them up. There are a bunch that are ancient gods, but aren't considered Titans, like Styx, or Erebos, Night, etc.
Furthermore, if you want something connected to ice, I'd think that, although the sound is different, Norse would likely have more of that sort. Ymir is the great ice giant, killed by Odin and his brethren. Thrym is another ice giant, I think, and Skadi, his daughter, though she marries Njord of the Vanir, is also of that kin and of a more chill-windy nature.
As far as other made-up names... those don't have the allusive history behind them (and in RPGs, cleverly done allusions are very good, indeed. I'd think it one of the hallmarks of CT, as well) but, seeing as ZeaLitY seems to have started in that vein, I'll try as well. To me, made up names must always have a meaning, so I'll try and wrack my brain to see what I can remember from all the words/names I've made up in the past. If the motif is to be ice, that is 'tryst' to me, so... hmmm... ancient is 'nemoth', but that doesn't exactly match. Let's see... Trystel, Trystanos, Heltryst, Heldain, Trysteth, Tiamtryst, Heldiom... no good ones are coming to me. I would need my language's dictionary with me, and they've got all more northern sounds, anyway.

I'm thinking that the ancient ones can appear in the Chrono Compendium library at Chronopolis as well as in the game. The Rainbow Shell could be the shell of a great, ancient nautilus, crushed beneath Lavos's weight and its materials refined in the heat. I've got a name for the enemy near Magus -- Glacek. At first, I was thinking something with a hard K sound, like Kracious, and the ice motif returned to me. I was able to integrate that k into the sleekness of "glace." What do you think?

If that's how you'd wish to pronounce it, then I'd recommend using an s in the place of the c. I've got something of a dislike for that letter, as it causes endless confusion in most fantasy names. So it should probably be spelled Glasek to avoid confusion.

[Hadriel]

I'm just looking for the meaning -- almost any name will do as long as it conveys that.  But beyond that, this enemy shouldn't exist if it weren't for the machinations of Lavos.

[Thorn]

I'm honored to be part of this project (and also, mind you, my site hasn't truly been updated in GOD knows how long...just because you mentioned it, I'm probably go and update it now...).

Anyways, yes, I'd like a poke at the script or even a beta patch of the game, just to see where things are turning with it.

On a side note, not to criticize, but I think it may be a little...too deep to be thinking of a name that stems from Mesopotamian Mythos...I like allussions and all, they're great, aye...but perhaps one may find just as much pleasure in finding their own name for such a boss?

However, if mythos it is, the mythos it must be, and I have my suggestions:

Fenris (alt. spelling of Fenrir, son of Loki in Norse Mythos meant to devour...I believ Odin at the end-of-the-world happening, Ragnarok...but I'm sure you all knew that already anyhow, lol.)

Terresc/Terresque (An ancient French dragon, rumored to have been killed by St. Whats-her-name that was the sister of the Biblical figure Lazarus [no, I'm not biblically versed, please forgive...] that can easily be a 'beast'.)

Gorgon (Classic Greek Mythos, the species name of Medusa and her sisters.)

As for made up names...
Glacimto/Glasimto (Latin words ice and slip mashed together)
Cryol/Cryot/Cryos/Cryotor/ Cryops (Cryo with ending consant(s))
Oresbuz (Just sounds plain cold...HINT: Switch the z and the s, and reverse)
Duikill (Literally gibberish, insipred somehow by liquid?)

[ZeaLitY]

Yosh. When we get a demo out, this will be smashing. I still have to prepare the Compendium for opening, but this support is phenomenal.

[Daniel Krispin]

Alright, if it's for meaning, it would be helpful to know exactly what sort of creature it is. Is it of ice? Is it of fire? Is it inherently evil, or simply tormented? A beast or in the shape of a man? Cunning with an intelligent mind, or beastlike? Such things would be helpful in suggesting this. I know my western myths alright, but in order to suggest something that works I would need to know the specifics. But until such a time as you say the exact nature, here are more detailed descriptions of some of those I mentioned.

Tiamat - The ancient godess of the under-earth salt water, and thus chaos, in Babylonian myth, she is often thought to have been in the shape of a dragon, but no real evidence supports this. She was the supreme ruler of all things at one time, but became annoyed with her noisy children, the younger gods, and in time rose against them to destroy them, whereat she was defeated by the god Marduk, who then rose to become the chief god, after the fashion of Kronos defeating Ouranos.

Qingu (Kingu) - he is the champion of Tiamat's hosts after the defeat of her consort Apsu by Enki. He is given by her the Tablets of Destiny which control reality. When Tiamat is defeated, he is killed and his blood mingled with mud to create men... thus making men inherently evil.

Astarte/Inanna/Ishtar - all inherently the same godess of war/love, save for being different names in different regions (respectively Caanan - I think, maybe Phonecia -, Sumeria, and Akkadia/Babylon)

That's all of the Mesopotamian I'd recommend. The others seem too 'good' to be an enemy (such as Marduk.) The advantage to these Middle-Eastern names is that they fit better with the feel of Kajar and Enhasa, and the Zeal names already existant.

In the matter of using allusions in naming these things... I would think that it lends a certain depth to a foe to have them connected with an evil from myth. Were it to be something such as Tiamat, for example, anyone that knows of Tiamat will go 'aha, this thing is ancient and powerful, and embodies chaos.' Of course, that's why the similarities must be there. It brings to the boss all these attributes of its namesake, basically. Otherwise, you lose something of the meaning in the name, and it just becomes a name, rather than a developed idea, see?

Of course, Thorn is right in saying that it can be fun to make up one's own names... being able to do this is something I pride myself on - I do it all the time using my Nephilim/Zeal language in my stories, because writing fantasy demands such a vast array of unique names - though usually I'm more focussed on meaning than on making it sound cool. Always serious, but never silly, I'm far too grim in writing for that. I'm finally at home, so I can look at my 'dictionary' I've written for it... well... 'chill' is 'nichaiet', but that's far too long for any name. Let's see, as far as names go... Kalaknos (or, Kalachnos, in higher dialects - and that's an aspirated ch, not an English-type one) is 'son of a demon', but really, without knowing more about this foe, it is hard for me to devise any names.  And ummm... does anybody care? Because I wager I'm the only one that's fixated on his made-up names having to have meaning.

Post Scriptum

Oh, and just to confirm it, yes, Fenris the great Wolf was destined to devour Odin at Ragarok, but was fated to in turn die to the avenging stroke of Vidar, I think it was, one of Odin's sons, who was to tear the wolf apart from the jaws - and, incidentally, was to be one of the few to actually outlive that dire day.

[Zaperking]

Well, It'd be easier to find a name for this ancient boss if you told us it's attrabutes. Figure, Element/magic, strength? Then we could find a name suitable.

I'm thinking on the lines of a greek name. Zeal sometimes reminds me of Atlantis, thought to once have been a part of the island of Crete. If this boss was like a stone golem type monster with like cryptic writing all over its body, i would have probably thought Atlantis. So without a desription of it, finding a name could be hard >.>

[ZeaLitY]

Well, I don't want to default on a yeti, so I was thinking of something more along the lines of FF6's Whelk. That'd be copying off the shell too much though, since we already have an ancient nautilus that once occupied the Rainbow Shell. I thus am thinking of a sort of ravenous, almost wolf-like, almost bi-pedal creature that isn't covered in hair, and is muscular with a blue body. He isn't modern in his fighting style however, defaulting on his ancient standing; his use of magic against the party will be a wakeup call to the player. He'll have high HP and take a while to erode away.

Chronopolis will reveal that mythology placed him as a sort of mountain guardian, but not "good" in any way. He was thought to dwell in darkness and in deep chasms in the mountains, only emerging to viciously eat and howl in the north wind.

How's that?

[ZeaLitY]

I'm toying with the idea of a real, Chrono mythology, with some made up names and some historical/real myth names. To have structure, we'd need to dictate figures that need to be in the mythos. Firstly, these groups would get their own sets:

Iokans (perhaps fire, earth)
Larubans (sky oriented, due to possible Zeal ancestorship)

Lavos and the approaching Ice Age would alter the mythologies. The Iokans, in Crimson Echoes, head underground, while the Larubans manage to subsist on a warm plot of land, under which the Flame is buried leagues down in a cavern (which will be discovered in 3000000 b.C.). The party must visit the Larubans in a sidequest.

The Iokans would societally become the Earthbound, while the Larubans would become Zealians. The Flame would radically alter mythology, somewhat, but it'd be more in a force rather than the flame itself, as the Flame is supposed to be Zeal's ultimate secret (deals with CE plot too). So, three more groups:

Pre-Flight/Sun Stone Civilization
Earthbound
Zealians

PF/SSC are shown in Crimson Echoes in the five ruins of 11998 B.C. After Zeal falls, we have a new race of people, the combined Earthbound/Zeal survivors. These eventually scatter once the land warms, and form basic tribes. These tribes will be represented:

Guardia
Dorino
Choras
Porre

The others die out, so they may be of little regard. Guardia, Dorino, and Choras need to share a common root in a holy mother of some kind, shown in Manoria Cathedral. I say this because Dorino is also known as San Dorino, making it seem like a very holy city (it has a nun), and Choras is a strong ally of Guardia (based on the theory that the Northern Ruins was a seat of government at one time). Additionally, Choras after 600 A.D. has the legends of Cyrus and Glenn (said by many in Chrono Trigger, and considered the nation's guardians). Lastly, Guardia would also have some concept of the Frozen Flame, since they'll beat everyone else with it and unite the other tribes. Porre can expand on the Antaeus motif.

~

Keep in mind that these will pop in dialogue, but the lengthy explanations will be kept in the Chrono Compendium in Chronopolis. The objective here is to make something relatively simple and fitting to each era and civilization.

[Thorn]

Aye, to the proof, as mountains are to winds; they shake not though they blow perpetually.

I'm awfully heartset, especially after the description of the first Ancient One, on the name Fenris...it's perfeclty fitting if an alusion is what you want made.

Other wise, we're thinking wolfish...wolfish...wolfish...

Nothing coming. My suggestions above still stand. However, if it is so to please, we could simply call each Ancient One 'Ancient of ____' and leave it at that, leaving players to call them, cumulatively, 'The Ancients' or 'The Ancient Ones'. I personally would name them rather than leave them be, but 'tis thine discretion of course.

As to Mythology, I'd agree for the most part on the ideas you've outlined there. However, the advent of the Mystics is rather unclear in the progression of civilization...just because they are monsters doesn't mean one can't consider them a race?

[ZeaLitY]

Yeah, I sort of left them out. By all means, they can be included.