Author Topic: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development  (Read 61163 times)

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2005, 04:32:27 pm »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Well, I don't want to default on a yeti, so I was thinking of something more along the lines of FF6's Whelk. That'd be copying off the shell too much though, since we already have an ancient nautilus that once occupied the Rainbow Shell. I thus am thinking of a sort of ravenous, almost wolf-like, almost bi-pedal creature that isn't covered in hair, and is muscular with a blue body. He isn't modern in his fighting style however, defaulting on his ancient standing; his use of magic against the party will be a wakeup call to the player. He'll have high HP and take a while to erode away.

Chronopolis will reveal that mythology placed him as a sort of mountain guardian, but not "good" in any way. He was thought to dwell in darkness and in deep chasms in the mountains, only emerging to viciously eat and howl in the north wind.

How's that?


Well, if that is the case, then I would think that the Fenris Wolf does not work all that well: the Wolf has hair, and is not blue, and neither is he of caves: he is enchanined upon in island in Asgard. That said, I think Norse is the only myths with something like this.
Personally, I think that sounds more akin to a troll, so perhaps Geriodurr the Troll King? He lives in caves.
Actually, Loki might even be better. He is enchanied at a cave at the end of the world, with the venom of a snake perpetually dripping on him, in punishment for his slaying of Baldur the Beautiful. The groaning of the earth is his pained cry. Moreover, I've seen several depections of him with a blue body. And yet again, if you wish him more beastlike... Loki is a shapeshifter. He bore Sleipnir in the shape of a mare, was captured by a troll when he flew about as a hawk, and took many other forms, even flies. And the Fenris Wolf is his son. Moreover, Loki is a very ancient god, of giant-kin, and of about the same age as Odin himself (who held him to be a blood-brother, before his treacherous turn.) Thus, for connections, I would council Loki, if anything.
However, on hearing that description, there does not appear to be anything that is close enough in myth. Anything such as Fenris or Loki are just faint connections and, in my opinion, not near enough to warrant using the name. It would be odd to anyone that actually knew the things. I'd council then making up a good name, and giving it a meaning in context of some greater Zeal history or language, connecting it to other meanings, and giving it mythical identification. The standards of good fantasy writing, basically.

Quote from: ZeaLitY

I'm toying with the idea of a real, Chrono mythology, with some made up names and some historical/real myth names. To have structure, we'd need to dictate figures that need to be in the mythos. Firstly, these groups would get their own sets:

Iokans (perhaps fire, earth)
Larubans (sky oriented, due to possible Zeal ancestorship)


Now THIS sort of thing is nearest to me - it fires my heart even to hear it mentioned. Varied myths and legends, the feigning of such things for imagined people, and the devising of histories... they're the things my hand is good at, at least when my mind is thinking in such ways (of late I've been out of those moods due to school-work, and exhaustion is never good for the old imagination.)
If you need any help writing this sort of thing, and penning things down in a more legendary style, I might be able to aid you. At the moment I've lost my creative edge, and so quite to my dismay I cannot bring forth that certain legendary style I love, but with rest and time I think it will return.

Quote from: ZeaLitY

Lavos and the approaching Ice Age would alter the mythologies. The Iokans, in Crimson Echoes, head underground, while the Larubans manage to subsist on a warm plot of land, under which the Flame is buried leagues down in a cavern (which will be discovered in 3000000 b.C.). The party must visit the Larubans in a sidequest.
 


Remember that mythology, technically speaking, tells of the relation betwixt the divinities and nature, thus tales such as the Enuma Elish, Genesis, Theogony, and those sorts of things. Many of the other tales are more legendary in nature.

Quote from: ZeaLitY

The Iokans would societally become the Earthbound, while the Larubans would become Zealians. The Flame would radically alter mythology, somewhat, but it'd be more in a force rather than the flame itself, as the Flame is supposed to be Zeal's ultimate secret (deals with CE plot too). So, three more groups:

Pre-Flight/Sun Stone Civilization
Earthbound
Zealians

PF/SSC are shown in Crimson Echoes in the five ruins of 11998 B.C. After Zeal falls, we have a new race of people, the combined Earthbound/Zeal survivors. These eventually scatter once the land warms, and form basic tribes. These tribes will be represented:

Guardia
Dorino
Choras
Porre

The others die out, so they may be of little regard. Guardia, Dorino, and Choras need to share a common root in a holy mother of some kind, shown in Manoria Cathedral. I say this because Dorino is also known as San Dorino, making it seem like a very holy city (it has a nun), and Choras is a strong ally of Guardia (based on the theory that the Northern Ruins was a seat of government at one time). Additionally, Choras after 600 A.D. has the legends of Cyrus and Glenn (said by many in Chrono Trigger, and considered the nation's guardians). Lastly, Guardia would also have some concept of the Frozen Flame, since they'll beat everyone else with it and unite the other tribes. Porre can expand on the Antaeus motif.

~

Keep in mind that these will pop in dialogue, but the lengthy explanations will be kept in the Chrono Compendium in Chronopolis. The objective here is to make something relatively simple and fitting to each era and civilization.

As I said, if you need help, I may be able to aid you, if I'm feeling up to it. If nothing else, I could - I think, at least - make it sound stylistically so. I've come to find that myth and legend has nothing to do with using the old pronouns thee and thou and all that sort of thing - which seems most people do - but is more apparent in a very formal style and syntax. It's fine line difficult to describe which, as I've said, I'm unable to accomplish at the moment, but will probably return to me in a few weeks time. I've done it before, after all, and I wager - though it's only a guess - that I've done more of this sort of thing than most here, and have written in legendary style even regarding Zeal - it's my most dear style, after all. For those that know a little of my writing (are there any?) you might know that I have quite the serious streak in it, and falter in doing anything comedic. That may lead to melancholy story-telling, but is also good for the mode of myth and legend.
As an example, these are the things I had written regarding the legendary founding of Zeal:
http://www.geocities.com/twilight_of_fate/ZealHistory.htm
And of the children of Zeal:
http://www.geocities.com/twilight_of_fate/ZealDescendants.htm
As far as experience writing mythically/legendarially goes, I also wrote a short Norse myth, and am keeping alive a certain legendary style in my later writing that I am now working on, completing it with a full history, feigned and legendary.
So, like I said, if you have any questions about writing myths and legends, I'll help if I can. It'll be dependant on time constraints, and what mood I'm in - I'm quite the uncertain writer, after all, and sometimes I just lost my style for a while, especially when I'm tired. If figure you'll still wish to write these things yourself, but I might be able to give suggestions, if you happen to need them.

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2005, 05:53:38 pm »
Okay, well by its description, it doesn't really seem very "BEHOLD! THE ANCIENT OF _______" etc. Just seems like an overpowerful boss with no real plot (no offense). BTW, I was kinda thinking you were explaining a blue herkan when you were describing it lol.

As for names, anything anglo-saxon might do? Wereris?

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2005, 06:17:00 pm »
Perhaps Fenris then. I can't even conceptualize my earlier concept of the monster, and it has evolved into something wolfish.

GoA, would you want to flesh out pantheons and their members? The issue here is just usage. We can stick as much text as we want into the game; however, how much would be practical or interesting to the players? Connections with the times and peoples must be present. Anyway, these are broad questions anyone can help answer.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2005, 08:31:09 pm »
If I recal, and GoA, confirm or deny, but sacrifice to Molech involved worshipers, who lived in the Hebron Valley (Hell) heating a bronze idol until it was glowing hot, and then placing an infant in it's cradled hands. Certainly appropriate for a Fire based enemy I would think.

Thorn

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • The Original Knight in the Woods
    • View Profile
    • Industrial Illuzzions Inc. - The Future of Entertainment!
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2005, 09:32:41 pm »
Now, for my clarification, there is an "Ancient One" per Era, or is there an "Ancient One" per group of peoples? This makes things much easier then to think about.

As to Fenris, if I'm not mistaken he was actually chained inside a cave midway between Asgard and Midgard, but I could be wrong. As for the idea of the creature, I should liken to perhaps make myself a forward guest to sketch it and upload to my own site for purveyance...I'll see what I can do there, just for an idea.

Also, as to the Mystics, they would probably derive from the Kilwalians / stray animalia of sorts that stayed on the surface and willed themselves to survive...or better yet, they hid within what would eventually be the Magic Cave, which had a close proximity with the strata contianing the Frozen Flame, mutating them and allowing them to harness magic along with the Larubans...an totally underground society, such as the Mud Imp and the beasts in Terra Cave, would therefore exist well enough to their own power in the Dark Ages, then obviously from there forward they would easily.

P.S.:
If you, Zeality or Hadriel, have begun the script for the dialogue/events of the game I would be most humbled to view it and develop the dialogue if you wish.

Hadriel

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2005, 10:18:37 pm »
The Mystics are sentient -- I'd say that elevates them above monsters.  Others might not see it that way, especially humans.

There isn't exactly an "Ancient" in each era -- more like a pawn.

Thorn

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • The Original Knight in the Woods
    • View Profile
    • Industrial Illuzzions Inc. - The Future of Entertainment!
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2005, 10:33:09 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
The Mystics are sentient -- I'd say that elevates them above monsters.  Others might not see it that way, especially humans.


Oh, naturally they are. I'm just giving them an 'evolution' or rather a 'coming of' in a way. After all, the first Mystic-like enemies are the imps in 12,000 B.C.. There aren't any in 65 mil BC at all, so one must imagine their origins.

Quote from: Hadriel
There isn't exactly an "Ancient" in each era -- more like a pawn.


Well of these Ancients, or rather pawns, I'd just like to know how many of these 'creatures/people/things' are there and what do each represent? The various scenarios? I.E., the Porrean Assassin for some time is a 'pawn'?

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2005, 11:19:56 pm »
Well, it's simply a plot device. One of the "Ancient Ones;" it's intended to be mystical and aloof. I hadn't planned on placing one in every era.

Actually right now I'm getting really paranoid about the actual Temporal Flux hacking. Event coding is time-consuming and I still feel like an utter and complete novice; I tried earlier to set up conversation with King Guardia, but saved my progress and quit. I'm also completely terrified at the limits of the CT rom, and restrictions we may encounter.

But moreover, it's just the feeling of being totally unskilled in what we need to do. The only way of ascertaining information is comparing events with other stuff, but I still haven't exactly learned bitmath yet, and I'd rather not pester JLukas, Chickenlump, or Geiger constantly. What scares me further is that they're about the only people right now experienced; DDK did work with Gates somewhat, but most the rom hacking knowledge is in their hands.

Thorn

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • The Original Knight in the Woods
    • View Profile
    • Industrial Illuzzions Inc. - The Future of Entertainment!
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2005, 11:28:13 pm »
Always other engines it can be made on, with albeit with heavy programming to simulate the battle system. RPG Maker XP and RPG Maker 2003 are my personal favorites, but there are others of course.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2005, 11:55:38 pm »
That's run through my mind, the only drawbacks being

-Several megs compared to relatively few
-Having to copy CT tilesets and rebuild them piece by piece. Excruciating.

The music is a strong argument in its favor. I sort of feel like there's something in making the first (CT related), and possibly the greatest rom hack ever.

Anonymous

  • Guest
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2005, 12:18:40 am »
If dealing with the way the game codes things isn't too hard, I would really recommend a ROM edit rather than using RPG Maker software.  It'd just be a lot more elegant.  From my experience with RPG Maker, it A) is fairly inflexible B) runs only on Windows C) can't produce stand-alone executable files [I'm not sure if newer version can do that] D) relies on the user's soundfont (?) for MIDI playback, which means awful results with the default Windows one.  A ROM edit can be played on any OS with an SNES emulator--I don't know much about this, but there's probably even a way to get it on a physical cartridge if so desired--and you have all of the game's systems and stuff there already, so if you're trying to make something in the game's "mold," it's perfect.  I understand that that the event languages can be arcane and annoying, though.  Would it help at all if the ROM editor featured a higher-level way to edit, with commonly used structures getting collapsed into single commands, or something like that?  I dunno, just a suggestion.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2005, 12:21:17 am »
Yeah, that'd make trivial stuff like adding in NPCs take less time, but I suppose high end options will be available once Temporal Flux enters into later stages of development. 2.0 will be a great leap forward. It depends whether Geiger wants to pursue it or work with other projects, I guess.

Hadriel

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2005, 02:11:49 pm »
The Mystic mythology sounds highly intriguing, though I'm not sure how much of it can be incorporated without seeming superfluous.  That may depend on TF's development and capabilities.

I was talking to ZeaLitY last night about how we have a complicated storyline here, and I didn't want it to turn out like something by Charles Dickens, who's so incredibly verbose that his "literature" makes 99% of a contemporary audience run screaming in unabashed terror.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2005, 04:21:46 pm »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
GoA, would you want to flesh out pantheons and their members? The issue here is just usage. We can stick as much text as we want into the game; however, how much would be practical or interesting to the players? Connections with the times and peoples must be present. Anyway, these are broad questions anyone can help answer.

I'll see if my time permits when my writing mood returns - I've actually got work this summer, as opposed to last. The only other problems I could forsee in doing that is that, while my style is certainly of that sort, I'm not certain whether my ideas of mythology and the like would be in accordance with what you want. Perhaps it would be best if you were to write down most of the things, and I could just proofread/edit? I'm just worried about getting carried away in my zeal, which I am prone to do now and again. Moreover, I think you may have a point, that few people will really care overmuch. It is actually more part of the background and setting than anything else, and lend the feel of a more complete world, rather than being anything neccessary to the plot. Anyway, perhaps it would be best if I just helped as an advisor of sorts in those matters.
But I wager it'll be a while before you get to the point where you will be looking at anything like this, eh?
Quote from: ZeaLitY

Well, it's simply a plot device. One of the "Ancient Ones;" it's intended to be mystical and aloof. I hadn't planned on placing one in every era.

I would advise against any use of the name 'Ancient One'; it's overused and cliched, and unless that's what you're looking for, I'd recommend something a little different. Even 'Ancient Lord' would serve the purpose here, although there are a myriad of other possibilities. But I would personally say to stray away from something so often used. This is Chrono Trigger, after all. It's not mainstream.

Finally, regarding what someone said about using other editors... well, I was looking at RPGmakerXP yesterday, and I rather think that 2003 was better. Unless someone knows how to change battle systems and such things, that is. Visually it's nicer, but it isn't very versitile. In contrast, 2003 is versitile so some degree: as opposed to what was said, they can all be self-executable, are quite versitile if you know what you're doing, and the newer ones can play MP3's... yet even so, I think it would be a difficult thing to get right with any RPGmaker, unless you had some skilled programmers that could mess around with the battle systems.

Hadriel

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2005, 06:03:09 pm »
Well, we hadn't planned on using the name "Ancient One" in the script -- as you said, it's Chrono, not some random bit of derivative fantasy crap that takes every chance it gets to rip off Tolkien & Co. (or to rip off the people who ripped them off.)  It's just going to be a name that is recognizable as a part of modern mythology -- the being will tie into the Lavos storyline and probably into any Mystic mythology we incorporate.