Is Magus really all that cool?

[Zephira]

Nah, it's a great ice breaker for new members, and always seems to spark some sort of discussion whenever someone comments. It's easy for people to get very opinionated about Magus.  It's like the practice run before getting into other analysis threads.

[ShoeMagus]

I always thought Magus was pretty awesome, even before I learned his backstory. It's probably my favorite boss fight in the game because of just how long it takes to actually get at him and the weird and crazy things he does (when I first played and couldn't do Delta Storm, his Shadow attacks were REALLY strange to behold; and who else can change which elements he absorbs?).

And his music is like the best boss theme ever (you can keep your One Winged Angel).

[Sajainta]

And his music is like the best boss theme ever (you can keep your One Winged Angel).

AMEN!

[Meushell]

... but I usually have Frog defeat him in the end.

Hah, they should make the fight tougher to give me a gameplay wise reason not to kill him but sadly because Lavos weakened him much, even Frog himself can defeat him easily.
 

You have a good point. His magic in general is kind of pathetic. First time you fight him, he's very powerful. Then the characters get stronger, and by the time you get him, he's weaker not just weaker than he started, but he's weaker than any of your current character. He should at least be on the same level as them.

[V_Translanka]

He hasn't had to level up to defeat bosses like Crono & Co. did...Magus just had to deal with pathetic 600AD humans and a lot of mostly comical Mystics...I wish he still had that Geyser attack and the ability to absorb w/e Magic type he wanted though...Lavos Is an Asshole should be another thread...>_>

[tushantin]

I kept saying it before and I'll say it again. The "Magus was weakened by Lavos" talk is nothing but pure misconception. Magus was never actually "weakened", though perhaps "wounded" or "tired". Even so, that did not really hinder his skills. If he really was weakened and had his techs taken away from Lavos then two things would have definitely happened.

1) Crono and co would also have had their techs taken away
2) Magus would have obtained those techs later on since at the climax he was much more powerful than the Mystic Wars incident.

What makes this different is simple: Magus needed quite a lot of time and resources to prepare for the summoning and his battle against Lavos. He needed defense, offense, and good elemental/shadow support to back him up, and if it really took him ages to prepare and master then such strategy can't be conjured up in an instant out of his armpits. LOL

Kato was well aware of the principles of sorcery. For those who know em too, take a closer look at his chance, his techs, barrier and that pentacle he's standing in. You'll see what I mean.

[ShoeMagus]

I kept saying it before and I'll say it again. The "Magus was weakened by Lavos" talk is nothing but pure misconception. Magus was never actually "weakened", though perhaps "wounded" or "tired". Even so, that did not really hinder his skills. If he really was weakened and had his techs taken away from Lavos then two things would have definitely happened.

1) Crono and co would also have had their techs taken away
2) Magus would have obtained those techs later on since at the climax he was much more powerful than the Mystic Wars incident.

What makes this different is simple: Magus needed quite a lot of time and resources to prepare for the summoning and his battle against Lavos. He needed defense, offense, and good elemental/shadow support to back him up, and if it really took him ages to prepare and master then such strategy can't be conjured up in an instant out of his armpits. LOL

Kato was well aware of the principles of sorcery. For those who know em too, take a closer look at his chance, his techs, barrier and that pentacle he's standing in. You'll see what I mean.

Magus: Aaah!!         魔王「うぐ……！！         Magus: ugh......!!             
   My powers are being drained!       　　　ま、魔力が……          M, my magical power......          
      　　　吸い取られてゆく……！？[END]          It's being sucked away......!?       

This shows Magus being drained in some way. It wasn't just a "MP Buster" sort of situation (because they had an animation for that; not that that is particularly conclusive) and this does not happen to the rest of Crono and Co suggesting that they do not necessarily have to lose their techs just because Magus does. They just get Rain of Destructioned until they pass out.

Here's the visual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ5_Wgv2KhA
Begins around the 8 minute mark.

It looks like a handy plot device, but it happened. I can buy that certain things (the Elemental Shields, the Geyser) were dependent on preparation in the castle, but you're suggesting that a great chunk of Magus's power was based on it by this logic. Magus may have spent his childhood and adulthood away from the insane creatures that Crono encounters but he still had plenty of time to actually learn these techs. He was clearly proficient in other magic outside of his castle (killing Cyrus, splitting the Masamune in two, turning Glenn into a frog), along with however many humans he may have slaughtered in the war.

I'm not saying Medieval occultism does not play a part in the story (reading about pentacles is actually particularly interesting and does provide a new spin on it), but not at the expense of basic story mechanics.

      

[tushantin]

  Actually the "drain" may have merely been something more powerful than MP Buster, but there are spells that trigger such effect to weaken foes (assumed real life/storybook spells, that is). But indeed that proves why Magus is weaker in his second bout against Glenn.

Even so, the "spells" such as the barrier and Geyser have nothing to with the powers sucked away from him. Magic requires knowledge, experience and will, and it can't be taken away just like that unless his powers were bound indefinitely, taking away his magic forever. The skills and barriers you've noticed is clearly the result of the resources available and calculated preparations (which Kato obviously left out, coz there are children playing this game; yet he left enough hints for the rest to find out, in CT, CC and RD).

As for Magus staying away from battles compared to Crono; how could you possibly think that? Rationally speaking, he's spent his whole LIFE in the Medieval ages, and a human in the midst of Fiends is not something common. He had to prove himself to them, and it certainly wasn't a show of fireworks. He had to battle intensely, prove himself to be worthy of the title "Magus", and had many challenges before him. He had to be the BEST! Don't you think that's obvious enough?

[Zephira]

Lavos didn't take Magus' knowledge of the spells away, just his ability to perform them. There was one Final Fantasy game that had a situation similar to this, I think it was 9. When your summoner's abilities were unlocked, she knew all the summon spells there were. Problem is, the MP required for those spells was higher than her max MP at the time. She knew the spells and incantations, but she didn't have the power to back it up. That's kind of what happened here. Magus still knew his spells, but his mana pool (or whatever you want to call it) was drained. He still had the knowledge, but the muscle had atrophied.

EDIT: A better real world example: Sports.
I used to play on the basketball team in elementary school. I was pretty fit and well trained, and I knew all the plays and strategies. As soon as I left that school I quit playing basketball. In the ensuing years, I lost the ability to play basketball well. I'm not as fit as I used to be, and I certainly don't have the energy to go running up and down the court anymore. I remember a lot of the basic rules, although I've forgotten most of the finer details. That loss of stamina, energy, and muscle could be likened to Magus' loss of magical strength. If Geyser and the barrier spells were more complicated and finicky than his basic spells (like the finer details of basketball, compared to the ground rules), he could have forgotten how to do them for lack of use.

[tushantin]

I see what you mean, Zephira, that may apply to "some" things but not all. You see, Geyser may be a complex spell but not as complex and powerful as Dark Matter. If Lavos indeed took away his abilities to perform those spells, and Magus was able to re-adapt his mastery of Dark Matter, then why not Geyser? And instead of Magical elemental barriers, he uses Magic Wall?

Let me explain the reasoning behind the Elemental Barriers he uses against Lavos/Crono in 600AD. Not many kids would wanna see "science" behind a video game thus I last posted about... yeah... in one of the forums that's uninteresting to children below 13, but I'll try to keep at as basic as possible here.

Ever heard of the Enochian Sorcery? Or perhaps the Keys of Solomon? Ordinarily a summoning takes quite an amount of time and concentration to pull of correctly, and the entities of power that a sorcerer extracts beyond time and space is directly proportional to the sorcerer's ability. Even so, there's no guarantee if the entities, who have been summoned against their will, would submit to their summoners or attack them. In which case, two things essential things are needed.

1) Incenses - These may influence the kinds of entities that are summoned in various ways. Some may anger them, or some may subdue. The cleverest sorcerer would pre-plan and use them more like a sedative. Of course, this won't work against Lavos.
2) Pentacle - Contrast to what modern sorcery teaches, the circle is a form of order, and the center being the power. The most basic of pentacles hold elemental energy at certain points, but the most complex ones (if drawn properly) will give the sorcerer as much control over the elements within the circle. The reason for this is simple - protection. The sorcerer channels the elements of earth, water, wind and fire and surrounds himself within the barrier when he focuses the void beyond it, splitting light completely.

I mean think of it this way. You have seen Ozzie prepare a legion of zombies and demons, most notably Zombor which steals its victims bodies after killing them. Those demons actually resemble the "Ghuls" category of the Djinni/Dream Demons. Now, if Janus was to combine the Zealian Forms and Mystic Dark Arts, what would it lead him to? Lavos, of course! But just for that he needs to "survive that darkness". There have been many powerful entities he may have faced just to be strong enough to challenge Lavos's wrath.

[ShoeMagus]

Actually the "drain" may have merely been something more powerful than MP Buster, but there are spells that trigger such effect to weaken foes (assumed real life/storybook spells, that is). But indeed that proves why Magus is weaker in his second bout against Glenn.

Even so, the "spells" such as the barrier and Geyser have nothing to with the powers sucked away from him. Magic requires knowledge, experience and will, and it can't be taken away just like that unless his powers were bound indefinitely, taking away his magic forever. The skills and barriers you've noticed is clearly the result of the resources available and calculated preparations (which Kato obviously left out, coz there are children playing this game; yet he left enough hints for the rest to find out, in CT, CC and RD).

As for Magus staying away from battles compared to Crono; how could you possibly think that? Rationally speaking, he's spent his whole LIFE in the Medieval ages, and a human in the midst of Fiends is not something common. He had to prove himself to them, and it certainly wasn't a show of fireworks. He had to battle intensely, prove himself to be worthy of the title "Magus", and had many challenges before him. He had to be the BEST! Don't you think that's obvious enough?

I did not say that Magus stayed away from battles. I meant simply that he wasn't going around fighting robots and Zealian crazies (lancers, evil queens, etc). What I was saying is that he had plenty of opportunity growing up to fight the various creatures that the 600 era had to offer, long enough to train up enough to perfect abilities like Dark Matter which he is perfectly capable of before Lavos drains him and after he trains again.

I don't take much more issue with your points with these last two posts. I just thought that you were implying that certain techs of Magus (like Dark Matter) were based on his position in the Castle (assisted by things like the sigil on the floor) rather than on his own innate skill/ability. I take no issue with your statement about Geyser and the Barriers because that makes sense (he has them there in the castle, but doesn't recover them later like he recovered Dark Matter).

As it is, I like Zephira's analogy. I think this debate raises some questions though about tech learning. Where techs are representative gameplay elements and where are they aspects of the story?

[tushantin]

Dude, not even Crono and co have been fighting Zealians or any sort before they meet Magus. Robots are of different matter, but what Magus has gone through are much worse than just insentient Robots. He has faced much more horrifying foes to achieve his goal (did you forget his "survival of darkness"?) Of course, you're right, he hasn't been around in many eras save Zeal and 600 AD.

And I never said that Dark Matter required Sigils, just the Elemental Barrier (and perhaps even Geyser). Of course, an amateur sorcerer WOULD require a specific pentacle to summon the void at a marked point to create a counter-space-time vortex, but those who have summoned demons before don't need to do so, especially those who have mastered Shadow Arts. In short -- Summoning may require a pentacle, while creating void or teleporting does not necessarily need one, which is exactly why Magus is capable of using Dark Matter with sheer will, form and incantation.

This has been done in various games, not just CT. Many techs and weapons have only been specific scene elements, and Elemental Barrier is of such kind. Most Djinn/Dream Demons are creatures of Shadow, Wind and Fire, and they cannot sustain their essence in material world for long, especially in a circular and ordered barrier where the natural elements are most concentrated, which provides best defense for Magus. He supposed such a barrier would also protect him against Lavos, but his will and concentration was not strong enough and thus his summoning was countered and thus he was pulled in.

Once I release an early audible of the second movie of Fleabane Trilogy, you'll know what I mean. And yeah, it has A LOT to do with Janus in 600 AD.

[V_Translanka]

Alright, w/e you choose to believe is fine and you can take my statements as completely unrelated. I wish Magus had all of his abilities seen (elemental barriers, geyser & sure, why not the frog spell too just for kicks? the FF series has it every so often...he even seems to use Lightning 1 on Cyrus, leading me to believe that Cyrus wouldn't even have been mid-boss level in comparison to what Crono & Co. dealt with). Lavos is an asshole. I think the script shows as stated that Lavos IS at least somewhat responsible (the frog spell plus others I'm sure he has are probably just spells he chooses not to use because how often are you going to need to turn someone into a frog, right?), but I know that it's all more probably chalked up to game mechanics.

[HeadlessFritz]

Magus is cool in the sense that unlike most villains who join your party, he doesn't change. You just happen to have the same goal as him at this moment. It's a kinda like Vegeta in DBZ comparatively to Piccolo who really becomes good.

Would Magus have been the same if you learned that Cyrus wasn't actually killed (just teleported in a jail) ? If Ozzie was actually forcing him to fight Guardia with mind control ? If he reverted Frog back to human ? If he became a Paladin like Cecil ?

Nah, Magus isn't that folks. He doesn't choose good or evil only what is useful depending on the situation.

However, in battle, he isn't all that cool. Dark Matter is the weakest last spell in the game if my memory is correct. No double techs, only a few triple techs. Sure, Omega Flare is the most powerful attack, but it doesn't involve a very balanced party.

[V_Translanka]

Any party with Robo is automatically balanced.

When you first get Magus, his Magic and level are going to be higher than the party's unless you didn't avoid many battles or something...and besides Robo is the only character that has access to multiple (all) Magic elements.