The Entity, Dragon Gods, and the Dimensional Split

[Thought]

The compendium's stance, as presented in the encyclopedia, is that when the dimension split, the 6 Dragon Gods also split and that "defense mechanisms" presumably killed off the duplicates (3 in home world, 3 in another world).

However, I would like to propose that no such defense mechanism was necessary and that the dimensional split did not, in fact, effect the Dragon Gods in the same manner as it effected anything else.

The reasoning for this is actually in the Dragon God's nature as it relates to the Entity. When dimensions split, does the Entity also split? That the Entity was able to pull Dinopolis from a different dimension implies that it had a good degree of control over that dimension (certainly more power than it ever displayed in Chrono Trigger). It would seem from such that the Entity exists, to a degree, in both dimensions (possibly as separate life forces but a single consciousness).

The dragon god were originally (according to Belthasar) a "singular plasma life-form, a living accumulation of the planet's energy." As the Entity is the planet, we might read such as indicating that the dragon god was a living accumulation of the Entity's power. If the Entity isn't entirely split when dimensions are split (as displayed in its power over the Reptite dimension), then it stands to reason that the dragon god would behave in a similar fashion. Indeed, given that the 6 dragon gods can still cross the dimensions (as displayed when they reform into the original Dragon God), it is implied that they likewise have the same power as what the Entity used to bring Dinopolis across dimensions (though probably not to the same extent, else it would seem like the Dragon Gods would have just returned to the Reptite dimension).

So, then, when the dimension split I would propose that the dragon gods continued to exist as they had before (that is, they did not split). They might be able to manifest themselves in multiple dimensions or, being less powerful than the entity, they might only be able to manifest in one dimension at a time (yet retain the power to cross the dimensions still). Three were either forced to or decided to reside in home world and the other three likewise lived in another world. No defense mechanism was needed as there were never duplicate dragon gods that needed to be destroyed.

This also then relates to Harle, as she is likewise a dragon god (with special ties to the second moon, though that relationship is never made clear). Presumably, like the other dragon gods, when the dimensions split she did not. As such, there would have never been both a home world and another world Harle.

And for reference, the related Belthasar quote is below:

   The Dragon Gods were originally
   a singular plasma life-form...
   ...A living accumulation of the
   planet's energy!
   Originally it was a biological
   machine used to control the
   powers of nature in the future
   society of the Reptites.
   In order to control the natural
   energy itself, FATE divided the
   one Dragon God entity up into
   6 weaker plasma life-forms...
   Then scattered them across
   the land and sealed them away.
   Their dragon-like appearances
   are just pseudo-guises...
   ...Temporary forms they take
   so that they can appear in
   this dimension.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Makes sense to me.  Makes MORE sense than the Compendium theory you mentioned...

And maybe it doesn't mean anything, but Belthasar does call it "Dragon God entity".

Snicker, snicker...

[Zaulche]

When Balthazar refers to THIS dimension, which dimension is he talking about?

Also, while it makes sense that the dragon god's were not affected by the dimensional split, how could something that powerful be broken apart by FATE if FATE itself was affected by the dimensional split (unable to control the people of homeworld after the split). It seems odd that the less powerful "entity" (dragon god(s)) was the one not affected by the dimensional split.

Another possibility may be that the "defense mechanisms" did not kill the dragons per se, but weakened them to the point where they were only powerful enough to be physically present in one dimension at a time.

I like your idea, but them I wonder where the compendium's stance comes from. Does anyone know where the support for the compendium's claim comes from?

[Thought]

Very good questions, Zaulche.

1) When Belthasar refers to "this" dimension, I assumed that he was refering merely to a physical dimension, but certainly he may be implying dimensions as in "Home World," "Another World," or some other such dimension. So, short answer: I don't know.

2) Fate is a fundamentally different being than the Dragon God. Great power doesn't necessitate that such a being would be immune to a dimensional split (neither that it preclude the possibility). However, FATE is clearly a cross dimensional being as well. Consider, if you will, how it is able to evaporate the Dead Sea from across the dimensions (in turn ripping these weird... hole like things... between the two that the party can then pass through to the Sea of Eden). Likewise Lynx, the product of FATE, is able to cross dimensions on his own (a power that Serge, being the key to the dimensional split, should only have). And we shouldn't forget that FATE required the use of the Frozen Flame to split the Dragon God, whereas at the time of the dimensional split it no longer had access to the Frozen Flame.

I am curious, is there any indication that the Frozen Flame actually exists both in Home World and in Another World? Perhaps likewise, it is not effected by the Dimensional Split. I don't recall there being a firm indication in the Dead Sea of the Frozen Flame's physical presence.

As for the "compendium's claim," that of defense mechanisms, I am only aware of that being the result of a logical (though I believe flawed) train of thought: "Dimension Split split everything, Dragon Gods are things, Dragon Gods were split, but only one version of each exists in-game, so something must have disposed of the extra copies."

[Zaulche]

Hmm...I always thought of physical as more of a plane (like material plane, ethereal plane, et cetera) and alternate realities as dimensions, though you are right in that the definition of a dimension works for either.

Does Lynx cross dimensions on his own? I know there were separate Lynx in each dimension, but I did not think that he crossed dimensions (at least not until after he combined with Serge).

Which, actually brings up another point. After FATE lost the power of the frozen flame it was no longer able to influence people in the Home World, yet people still use it (and if you talk to them they react as if they were still being told what to do). How are they still being told what to do if FATE is not talking to them?

For that matter, how is FATE able to change Wazuki into Lynx in Home World if it loses contact with him? Does it only take one touch from FATE to completely change you, or is there something else altogether that I am missing?

I know some of these questions are a bit off topic, but if I understand them better then it might help me understand your theory more fully.

I am playing through Chrono Cross again right now and I am to the point where I am in Lynx's body, so I'll be heading to the Dead Sea in a few hours game time. I'll try to pay more attention to mentions of the Frozen Flame.

[FaustWolf]

Also Zaulche, people have entire playthroughs of Chrono Cross on Youtube, and there's the Chrono Cross game script up at the Compendium and at GameFAQs for quick reference.

What's the nature of the "defense mechanisms" in the current Compendium theory, I wonder? Would the attempted/completed drowning of Serge theoretically have caused Chronopolis/FATE to take action against the Dragon Gods for some reason?

Is the Frozen Flame also in Home World's Dead Sea? Here's a Compendium encyc quote:
Though Wazuki and Serge escaped the resulting chaos as Chronopolis's defense systems reactivated with the passing of Schala's magnetic storm, Miguel was not so lucky, and was held prisoner for four years. When the dimensions split, the Home World version of him died with the appearance of the Dead Sea; FATE subsequently stationed the version of him in Another World as a guard to protect the Frozen Flame at the core of the Dead Sea. There, he waited ten years in the frozen world. He was relieved at last when Serge arrived to take the Flame;

...which would indicate that Another's Miguel was thrust into Home World to guard Home's Frozen Flame, which was being stored in the Dead Sea...I think?

EDIT:
Yes, the Frozen Flame is definitely in the Dead Sea in Home World. FATE destroys Home World's Dead Sea to prevent "its enemies" from acquiring the Flame.

Musing #1: Harle is in the team when you visit the Dead Sea, isn't she? And given that Harle's purpose is to acquire the Frozen Flame for the Dragon Gods, could she be the one FATE was trying to deny the Frozen Flame? Serge is in Lynx's body at this time, so he couldn't have seized the Flame, could he have?

Musing #2: Given the above, it seems to me that tossing the Dragon Gods into separate dimensions, purposely, would be a smart thing for FATE to do given that the Frozen Flame is in both worlds. True, the Dragon Gods can cross dimensions as we see late in the game, but this happens only *after* FATE is destroyed. Thus, splitting up the Dragon Gods keeps them disunified and thus less dangerous in the event that they *do* somehow acquire the Flame.

Would it be too much of a stretch to say that the "self-defense" was on FATE's part, making use of the two dimensions to hedge her bets? It meshes well with Thought's interpretation of the Dragon Gods as cross-dimensional unitary entities, and does not require Chronopolis to spring to life and start annihilating Dragon Gods.

[Thought]

Ah ha, I found the quote that I think you are referring to:

   It looks like Fate has made
   its decision and has started
   to carry it out now...
   FATE doesn't want the Frozen
   Flame to awaken in this place
   at this time...
   It would choose to destroy the
   Flame along with the whole Dead
   Sea, than to allow its enemies
   to take hold of the Flame...

   This lost future is about to
   disappear into the darkness
   beyond the dimensions again...
   You have no time to spare.
   You must leave here
   immediately!
   Quick...go!

Yeah, it seems that the "destruction" of the dead sea was entirely about the Frozen Flame.

Though, it is odd that FATE didn't want the FF to "awaken." I suppose that may just be a poetic way of saying that it didn't want anyone getting ahold of the FF and using its power before it did, but it might also refer to a sort of conciousness (and the FF does seem to have a sort of conciousness of its own).

Also, the manner in which the Frozen Flame was destroyed is curious. The Dead Sea wasn't so much destroyed as it was sent back to the Darkness Beyond Time (it came from there once, the implication then is that it could return again. And if it can return, it isn't really destroyed). Did FATE actually effect any physical aspect of the Dead Sea (and in turn, the Frozen Flame) or did it just shunt the timeline back into the DBT and close the temporal-leak-like-thingy that allowed the ruined future to manifest itself in the Dead Sea in the first place? I am asking because this might imply that it "destroyed" the Frozen Flame by sending it back to the Darkness Beyond Time.

After the Dead Sea evaporates, it isn't like the Sea of Eden returns; the curious temporal qualities of the area seem to have been largely eliminated.

However... Miguel seems to be a key to the Dimensional Distortion at Opassa Beach as well. I have no idea why killing him should restore it (which implies that Miguel somehow had the power in the first place to prevent it's use). I suppose killing Miguel might have been the event that collapsed the temporal qualities of the Dead Sea as well (why this should be so, again I have no idea).

As a side note, I can't find script confirmation that Miguel in the Dead sea is the Miguel from another world. Indeed:

   Yes... I've been here
   in this very place...
   For 14 years...
   It wasn't like this
   when I got here, though...
   An incident that occurred
   10 years ago, transformed
   it into the Dead Sea.

That seems to include that he personally was at that location when the Sea of Eden became the Dead Sea, and thus he is Home World Miguel.

However, in Chronopolis the Serge & Squad do access a computer that reveals:

   However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.
   And with much difficulty, FATE
   succeeded in binding Miguel
   to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

I suppose one could intrepret this as that FATE crossed over with Miguel (especially if we assume that the formation of the Dead Sea would have killed Home World Miguel), but that doesn't actually claim as much. Just, that FATE binded a Miguel as a watchman (and this is probably what gave him the powers we see him display, in game).

I wonder, then, where Miguel is in Another World. Maybe FATE killed him there, as it had no use for him.

EDIT: Side note: Miguel is a variation of Michael, one of the Archangels of God. Miguel's relationship to FATE (aka, the Goddess) could be interpreted as him being an archangel as well. Some interpretations even have Michael being the one who guarded the Tree of Life after the fall (effectively, making Michael the "watchman" of a fallen Eden). Michael was also associated with healing, and Miguel was guarding the Frozen Flame (which healed Serge). In some places Michael is also the patron of Mariners. And, of course, Michael is the angel that is often depicted as standing over a defeated dragon (which represents satan). I hope I shouldn't need to explain the significance of a defeated dragon in Chrono Cross terms. Michael was also a psychopomp, and the Dead Sea could thus also be related. When individuals are faced with death, Michael supposedly comes and helps them redeem themselves (the battle with Miguel being part of Serge's motivation to find out what is going on and ultimately save the world). And Michael was the one to tell Daniel what was to happen in the future (of Israel). Miguel was the one to tell Serge and the others about the future (in the form of the dead sea).

Faust, I do quite like the idea of FATE attempting to keep the Frozen Flame from Harle, however I don't see why it couldn't be both Harle and Lynx/Serge.

[BROJ]

Yeah, it seems that the "destruction" of the dead sea was entirely about the Frozen Flame.

Though, it is odd that FATE didn't want the FF to "awaken." I suppose that may just be a poetic way of saying that it didn't want anyone getting ahold of the FF and using its power before it did, but it might also refer to a sort of conciousness (and the FF does seem to have a sort of conciousness of its own).

Or it may have not wanted the FF to end up with the Dragon God, which as the game states is part of the Time Devourer at this time and that the separate and composed Lunar(Fake Dragon God) Dragon are merely projections into the dimensions--Home and Another--from the DBT. In other words FATE does not want Lavos, her enemy at the DBT, to acquire, by proxy, the Frozen Flame.

[FaustWolf]

At first I thought FATE was trying to destroy the Frozen Flame physically, hence all the fiery stuff that was going on in the Dead Sea after Miguel dies, but FATE did definitely shunt the Frozen Flame into some temporal vortex. This shows, at least, that the Frozen Flame isn't really fragile enough to be smashed by FATE.

What, then, was the point of all the "fiery stuff" going on in the Dead Sea just before FATE sealed the Frozen Flame into oblivion? The corresponding video can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iiEHxI2V90

The sudden destruction may be separate from FATE's intervention, which may be limited to the creation of the temporal vortex. Could all the hellfire actually be a representation of Lavos' "Day of Destruction," which is supposed to be "reborn" imminently as the Chrono ghost kids say? However, this conflicts with the air laser/bombardment attacks Lavos is known for in CT.

My mind is sort of discombobulated on the matter of whether Serge, in Lynx's body, could have approached the Frozen Flame and seized it. As Miguel says, only the "chosen one" may approach the Flame -- the Acacia dragoons who tried to approach it in the Dead Sea became "Salt for the Dead Sea," 4:35 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUcw-FTqGBI

On the other hand, I may be mistakenly conflating FATE's need for Serge's body to get past the Prometheus lock with Serge's ability to seize the Flame. Could it be that the Flame can somehow detect the individual's "soul," and thus may be approached by Serge even in Lynx's body? But then, FATE could get past the Prometheus lock with Serge's body, only to discover that she is unable to actually seize the Flame because she does not have Serge's "soul"...

Interesting that Harle is entirely immune to the normally deleterious effects of seizing the Frozen Flame. Could it be due to her alleged genetic similarity to Kid, and hence Schala, who allegedly served as an Arbiter? We've had questions about that as well I know.

EDIT: In light of your observation BROJ, is the Dragon God's unification and acquisition of the Frozen Flame after FATE's demise actually a victory for Lavos then? Wild.

[BROJ]

Interesting that Harle is entirely immune to the normally deleterious effects of seizing the Frozen Flame. Could it be due to her alleged genetic similarity to Kid, and hence Schala, who allegedly served as an Arbiter? We've had questions about that as well I know.

Harle is part of the Dragon God which, in turn, is part of the Time Devourer--so it's only natural that Harle does not suffer ill effects as she probably has sort of a built-in immunity.

EDIT: In light of your observation BROJ, is the Dragon God's unification and acquisition of the Frozen Flame after FATE's demise actually a victory for Lavos then? Wild.

More or less; yes.

[Thought]

Crap, people replied faster than I could edit my post. Regarding Miguel/Michael, I accidentally included some info regarding the archangel Gabriel (not Michael). I edited that to remove the faulty info and added a little more.

[Thought]

Unfortunately, I finally found (some) confirmation that the dragon gods were split along with the dimension: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania_Interview.html

Question: Why do Lynx, Harle and the Six Dragon Gods exist in only one of Home World and Another World?

Answer: Regarding the Six Dragon Gods, originally they existed in two dimensions, but it was made such that each in either word was destroyed. As for Lynx and Harle, there were two of them but Lynx and Harle disappeared in the Dead Sea in Home World.

Presumably that is where the defense mechanisms for the Dragon Gods came from (still doesn't clearly establish who did it or why, however). I still think the Chronopolis defense mechanism idea is bunk, but at least I know now that there is a legitimate basis behind it.

Actually, that entire interview (which I hadn't read before) is terribly interesting. It is Ultimania, and I am not sure of how good the translation is, so its authority (even when Kato is speaking) is dubious, but it seems to give very powerful answers to where Miguel is in Another World, if Harle is a schala clone (yes), and so forth.