Taking another look at how Serge's survival causes Home World's destruction

[Thought]

Hey BROJ, I didn't see your post when I made mine. Sorry about not addressing your points. The Lavos 2nd Form room certainly does resemble a constructed facility of some sort. However, I am curious as to if you have ever seen this computer generated animation of the inner working a single cell. Some of that resembles a constructed facility as well.

Certainly, the design of the "room" implies an artificial construct, but not definitely so. But I've already said I am biased towards a naturally occuring Lavos.

Still, Duck-footed-Lavos was wandering around inside shell-Lavos. He/it presumably had the intelligence to design and construct the room himself, though that does bring up the interesting image of Lavos building a structure inside of itself.

Faust, I highly recommend checking out Wikisource. That is actually were I've read the majority of my Lovecraft. If I might make a few suggestions, The Call of Cthulhu, The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, The Colour Out of Space, and The Unnamable are all wonderful examples of his work (and it pains me to limit myself to only four when there are so many others that are wonderful as well).

Given that Serge had the choice (Arbiter status) over how it would evolve, and that it wasn't yet capable of devourering space-time, that seems to imply that, at least not as of "yet" from the game's prespective, it was not capable of evolving ala Lavos (that is, taking the "genetic" material for a timespace and incorperating it into itself, then sending spawns to another timespace to do the same). Given more time, it might have been able to, however.

I am inclined to believe that Serge did have to unlock the TD from the DBT (specifically, by using the Time Egg to open that gate), as every other time in the game when it is mentioned the Serge destoryed the future, the particular verb tenses imply the had done something in the future.

Out of curiosity, as I don't recall, can the DBT be accessed from either world? If only homeworld, that would then seem to imply that opening the gate is what dooms the future (and given Belthasar's machinations, it was inevitable that he would open the gate).

"How" the TD would evolve seems to relate to his use of the Chrono Cross. Either it would continue evolving into a fully matured TD or he would use the CC and the course of its evolution would be different (but here I don't think we can say that this evolution is the same as standard Evolution; I suspect it is looser and more akin to just a change, not the actual process of Evolution).

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

I am inclined to believe that Serge did have to unlock the TD from the DBT (specifically, by using the Time Egg to open that gate), as every other time in the game when it is mentioned the Serge destoryed the future, the particular verb tenses imply the had done something in the future.

Agreed.

May I note that the Lavos Core (and Bits by default) highly resembled various organisms found on the Chrono planet.  For instance, the head resembles the head of the Scouts found within the Ocean Palace.  Taking these quotes into perspective:

Robo: Amazing...
   It houses all the DNA of every
   creature that ever lived...!

Marle: It's...humanoid...

   It seems like it has collected all of
   the vitality from the creatures who
   have lived on this planet.

Lucca: Now I understand...

   It lives on a planet for as long as
   possible, stealing away the most vital
   resources...

   It combined the DNA it found here
   with its own, and gave birth to those
   creatures up on Death Peak.

   Eventually the young must migrate to
   other planets...to repeat the cycle...

Robo: This was Lavos's goal...!

   Using the DNA of every organism...

   And achieving the ultimate in
   evolution!

Frog: This be evil!

   Indeed! This thing possesseth the
   vitality of all living creatures...

   It hath harvested DNA from animals,
   only to further its own evolution!
   And whilst sleeping, to boot!

Magus: ......

   So...since the dawn of time, it has
   slept underground, controlling
   evolution on this world for his own
   purpose...

Lucca: Grown like farm animals,
   waiting to be slaughtered...

   All of our history...
   our art and science...
   All to meet the needs of that...
   beast...

[Thought]

totally besides the point, but why does Frog even know what DNA is?

[BROJ]

This post is intended to add to my previous hypothesis:

Cell's appearance varies depending on which form he is in. He evolved from a cocoon-like form and his first form is insect-like in appearance.

Hmm... The shell of Lavos does look like a cocoon and considering it(Lavos) was growing the 'Ultimate being' inside, it is rather indicative of the shell being a sort of cocoon.

Abilities

Cell has a large range of different varying powers, that previous Z warriors have shown, this is due to the fact that he is essentially a combination of many different cells of many different beings that have travelled to been on Earth.

Kinda like Lavos absorbed DNA, huh?..

Cell's final form, while possessing a tail, does not demonstrate the ability to absorb other beings. Instead, he uses his tail to create smaller versions of himself called Cell Juniors.

In Lavos's case--Lavoids

Lavos is also the final boss in Chrono Cross, except in the form of the Devourer of Time, the result of the defeated Lavos assimilating Schala in the darkness beyond time.

After absorbing a sufficient amount of beings, Cell then found #17 and #18 and nearly absorbed #17, if not for #16 who was able to fight Cell one on one.[6] He eventually manages to absorb #17 and changes into his second form. This second form would have absorbed #18 as well if Tenshinhan did not intervene. Tenshinhan is able to stall him long enough for #18 and #16 to escape. Cell gives chase to the two artificial humans and tries to flush them out of an island they were hiding in until Vegeta arrives to challenge Cell.[8] Vegeta easily defeats Cell by utilizing his new Super Saiyan 2nd Grade abilities. However, Vegeta, wanting to battle a more challenging opponent, assisted Cell in absorbing #18.[9] In this new form Cell easily defeats Vegeta and Trunks (who comes to assist Vegeta).

Perfection through absorption is my stance, not 'true' Evolution. (Like the Romans absorbed technology from other cultures to create a 'perfect society'.)

[FaustWolf]

Man, I found Frog's quote hilarious as well.
"It hath harvested DNA from animals...And whilst sleeping, to boot!"

I've heard about the Call of Cthulu, but not the titles of the others. Thanks Thought.

I totally forget whether the DBT can be accessed from both Home and Another. This is important evidence -- can anyone answer Thought's question?

[BROJ]

I totally forget whether the DBT can be accessed from both Home and Another. This is important evidence -- can anyone answer Thought's question?

From the knowledge I accrued thus far from the Compendium I hypothesize that the DBT is a 'relative' perspective (as Home World is to Another World) from the dimension that one is in. In other words the Time Devourer is actually in Another World in an otherwise inaccessible, discontinuous space-time(Pocket Dimension) which the CC(The two pieces providing a connection between the two dimensions), vis a vis Home World, makes it possible to go there. 

Edit:

This last one comes with a note:
In the NA version, Magus noted that Lavos had been "controlling evolution for its own purposes." This makes it seem as if Lavos were actively guiding evolution. In fact, the only known instance of this is humanity's contact with the Frozen Flame. In the Japanese version, Magus merely says that Lavos has been "making the evolution of all life...its own," which is similar to the other party members' statements that Lavos is merely harvesting certain traits for his own evolution. It is far removed from the sweeping statement that Lavos controlled absolutely everything.

So for Lavos to get the greatest Evolutionary Product, he does so by increasing the total Evolution by modifying the total change in a given amount of time, but in order to do that he had to introduce a modifier, the Frozen Flame... interesting!

[FaustWolf]

Just for the record, DBT is accessible to the player in both Home and Another Opassa Beach. It has to be that way for New Game+, and I assume that's the way it is in a regular playthrough as well.

[FaustWolf]

Food for Thought (sorry, couldn't resist):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUcw-FTqGBI

This is a video of the Miguel fight and its aftermath dialogue (the good stuff starts @ 2:25). Points of interest:


Miguel:
The Dead Sea is the true form of this planet's future. ... That was in 1999, when Lavos (yadda yadda yadda)...

Ghost Lucca:
At that moment (the moment of Lavos' destruction) this whole future time axis ceased to exist.


Thus, the conversation points toward the Dead Sea containing the *original* pre-CT fate of the world as destroyed by Lavos in 1999AG.


Ghost Marle:
But the future that was supposed to have disappeared is about to be restored here...


...So, does the Dead Sea as seen by Serge-Lynx & co. contain something *other* than the ruined future, because the ruined future is *about* to be restored? Or perhaps the Dead Sea contains a mishmash of historical events and the Lavos world destruction historical event is just now going to be played out after the Miguel fight.


Ghost Crono:
The vengeance of the future we killed is about to begin...With Serge serving as the trigger.


Whether Serge is active or not, his presence is certainly required at a certain place and a certain time, apparently.


Miguel:
FATE doesn't want the Frozen Flame to awaken in this place at this time...

FATE essentially destroys the Dead Sea, perhaps to prevent Harle from acquiring the Flame in Home World?


SUPER DUPER EDIT:
Ah-ha, haha! Thought, we have some more circumstantial evidence pointing in the "Serge acts purposely to destroy the world" direction! When the Sky Dragon God gives Serge-Lynx & Co. a lift so that they can escape the dimensional vortex into which FATE stuffs Home World's Dead Sea, it says...

Party Member:
Why did you help us?

Sky Dragon:
I, too, would like to witness this.
How thou shalt live and how thou shalt die...
If thou art planning to bring forth a new entity, prepare thyself for anguish and sorrow.

Thus, the Time Devourer's evolution hinges on some "decision" of Serge's.

Having reflected upon all this, I'm not entirely sure whether Lavos or the Time Devourer is responsible for the future seen in the Dead Sea. Miguel and the ghost kids were quite emphatic that the Lavos-destroyed future was being reborn, yet the idea that Serge is responsible for the Time Devourer's evolution is also important given what the Sky Dragon says.

[Thought]

Just for the record, DBT is accessible to the player in both Home and Another Opassa Beach. It has to be that way for New Game+, and I assume that's the way it is in a regular playthrough as well.

Just checked this on a non-New Game + file the other day. First time through, the DBT can only be accessed in Home World. To note, the Ghosts only appear on the Home World beach too. That seems to support the idea that the TD's connection to the real world was through Home World.

As for the various Quotes, Faust, it occures to me that there might be a difference between the ruined future existing in the Dead Sea and that future being "restored." After all, as long as that future is limited to the Dead Sea, it really hasn't been restored to its former place.

And there is also a question of what is being restored; The specific timeline in which Lavos rose and destoryed everyone thing on the Day of Lavos or the Apocalypse?

The TD still had to mature. I mildly wonder if it might have taken another 979ish years. There would be a particular sense of poetic "justice" if the Time Devourer emerged from the DBT at the exact same time that Lavos would have emerged from the core of the earth.

If so, the destruction it would then cause to the timeline would cause an apocalypse and possibly result in the essentially same future (however, one ruined by the TD, not Lavos, and one in which all of time is ruined, not just the planet).

[FaustWolf]

Whoa, that is interesting indeed. Sort of like Lavos being accessible through the telepod on a New Game+ in Chrono Trigger; only the paths to Lavos available during an original playthrough can be considered canonical for storyline purposes, I think.

[ZeaLitY]

All right. The evidence here seems like it can't be ignored. Ultimania is iffy because it does get two or three things dead wrong, such as the date Kid arrived to the real world (it says 1006 A.D. I think, yet Kid is 16 and the cut scene that Kato oversaw depicts her as a flat-out baby, not toddler, meaning it had to be 1004 A.D.). Kato's words from Ultimania can't be ignored, of course.

Anyway, it seems very likely that the ruined future is a reflection of what the Time Devourer will do if Serge doesn't stop it through the Chrono Cross. Thematically, it's perfect; it's at the Dead Sea where Serge tells Miguel that he'll defy the forces of fate. This scenario is horrible for numerous reasons:

• It kicks Flow Principle to the curb. Things happen in the Chrono world because time travelers act. All the brave intent Crono could muster wouldn't change the future until Crono acted upon it, and destruction shouldn't occur until the Time Devourer has matured.
• It ignores Time Error. The Darkness Beyond Time is about as much a Time Error place as you can get; Chrono Trigger DS only added to this by allowing you to go there from the End of Time. According to Belthasar, the Time Devourer hasn't finished maturing; we also see this in-game. Why on earth then does the mere possibility of its maturation cause destruction, which means the "timeline" of the DBT would flow instantaneously to its conclusion? (CT DS's other effects here not yet established, since yeah, we've got two versions of the party in the DBT at the same time and we aren't sure if the visit's canonical)
• It ignores Time Traveler's Immunity. Assuming the DBT has Time Error, beings traveling to and form it should be granted immunity, and this should include the effects of the Time Devourer. If the Time Devourer destroys the world from inside the DBT, the destructive effects should retain TTI no matter what ultimately happens to the Time Devourer itself. Of course, one could always say "HEY CHRONO CROSS HEALS IT ANYWAY HEHE"

Should we add this as Chrono Cross's second plot hole?

Perhaps Chrono Trigger Ultimania will shed light on the subject since it's sure to discuss the Darkness Beyond Time and Dream Devourer, but who knows how long it'll be until we get a translation of those special sections, or scans, even. Perhaps I can buy a copy.

[FaustWolf]

ZOMG, two plot holes in CC? For shame!

What's the probability someone in Japan will take that Ultimania apart and scan it for us, I wonder? We should probably keep our eyes on Japanese Chrono fan sites.

[killercactus]

I'm pretty late at reading this conversation, but I always kind of reconciled the Serge issue to myself this way.

I always thought that Chronopolis, post Counter-Time Experiment, exists in all time periods simultaneously.  We know (I think) that is has temporal links with other periods.  That would account for its disappearance and the formation of the Dead Sea - if it was going to be destroyed in the future of that dimension, it would be gone in all time periods of that dimension.

As Boo said earlier, the only reason Serge is special is because he's an Arbiter.  We don't know why Schala chose Serge (though I think Belthasar somehow communicated with her to do it - we know he communicted with her when Kid was created.  I think he did it purposely in order to create an Arbiter), but we know that her doing so designated him as an Arbiter.  We also know that, as long as he is an Arbiter, FATE cannot access the Flame.

Assuming Chronopolis exists in the same state in all time periods, it loses access to the Flame at that Time Error point (when Serge touches it) in all time periods, including the past.  FATE can no longer manipluate people and circumstances with the Records of Fate to preserve the timeline, because it has no power.  This could be why the world is now ruined.

Imagine Crono and Co. appear in 12000 BG ready to kill Lavos.  Before they do, Chronopolis warps in from the Time Crash, pulled there by Lavos in order to mess up Crono.  In the original timeline (where Crono won), FATE was able to manipulate happenings so that Crono still went on to defeat Lavos.  This time, without access to the Flame, it can't.  Crono and Co. decide to go check out Chronopolis, and are either trapped inside or killed there.  They never defeat Lavos, 1999 AD comes back into existence, and the Dead Sea forms - all because Serge survived.

[ZeaLitY]

Still have an issue with Flow Principle there, but it can be included in the discussion; thanks.

[utunnels]

   Two worlds that are so close,
   and yet so far in nature, exist
   in different dimensions.
   Under the surveillance of the
   main computer of Chronopolis...
   '"FATE."'
   In other words, FATE, has
   always been observing the 2
   parallel worlds, and guiding them.

Not sure about that, but does it mean the Chronopolis/Seaof Eden is a linkage between these 2 worlds?
So if it has problem controling Home World, things are messed up. For some reason, the place Sea of Eden is still a linkage.
So the 2 worlds don't share history before 1010 A.D., only the main flow of history are the same, at least before Serge touched the Flame.