Taking another look at how Serge's survival causes Home World's destruction

[Acacia Sgt]

Maybe it's a way to express it.

If there is now two worlds, and they share the same past, by watching that past, aren't you watching both world's past then?

[utunnels]

Yeah, perhaps, although I can't feel that from the words.
However, it is still possible that the ideas changed during developing and not all of them were checked.
Really, I didn't notice those while playing through the game.
I only want to figure out what the game already told us before analysis.
Oh, my head hurts...  _ _

[killercactus]

The script says again and again that the dimensional split happened in 1010 AD. A shared past timeline with a "Y" shaped model for the dimensional split neatly explains why the Dead Sea only appears in 1010 AD and not prior to that in Home World. It explains why Miguel remembered living in Chronopolis up until that point. But then the script also says that FATE has always been observing both worlds. It is endlessly confusing, and my two cents is that we should side with the model of events that has the most consistency.

Even if the dimensions were always separate, the Dead Sea appearing in 1010 can still be explained.  Pulling from Thought's "Elastic Time" analysis, things don't seem to happen in the series until they actually "happen".  For example, Lavos doesn't vanish from 1999 AD as soon as Marle and Crono collide, or as soon as Marle is warped back to 600 AD.  It changes when Lavos is destroyed.

By the same token, the Dead Sea wouldn't exist in Home World until Serge is actually saved (e.g. 1010 AD).  At 1008 AD, Chronopolis still exists in Home World, because the exact event that causes it to cease to exist hasn't happened yet.

It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to me to accept (in the Chronoverse) that alternate dimensions exist because of an event that hasn't yet occurred there.  All that means is that there are dimensions with exactly the same data up to a certain point, where one singular event causes them to differ.  Perhaps Belthasar knew this (because Chronopolis was observing both worlds) and knew that an Arbiter would be able to cross the dimensions, as FATE could.

[Thought]

Regarding the Dead Sea, time at least does seem to flow differently. First, most stuff (but not all) seems to be Frozen in Time, which meshes well with Miguel's statement:

   I'm Miguel.
   A friend of your father.
   According to the time outside,
   it's been about 14 years since
   the night of the storm...

Curiously, this seems to imply that there are two different "flows" of time existing side by side in the Dead Sea. The static "flow" in which everything is frozen, and a more normal flow in which Miguel, the monsters, and Serge & Squad are able to move around.

Likewise, Chronopolis/The Sea of Eden seems to experience "strange time" as well. That is, it looks like there are temporal echoes between the past and the present (and maybe the future). One might even say that the past/future is bleeding through into the present there. In which case, again we have two different timelines seeming to overlap.

This does make sense given the Time Crash... actually, it may be that the Time Crash is what is responsible for the dimensional split:

   In the year 2400, during a
   counter-time experiment, the
   Flame goes out of control...
   This causes the dimensions
   to rip apart, resultin' in
   the Time Crash.
   Engulfed in an enormous
   dimensional vortex,
   Chronopolis was hurled ten
   thousand years back in time.

Because I'm a geek, I can't help but think of the last Star Trek TNG episode in which a rip in time started in the future causes humans not to develop in the past. This would seem to mesh well with what has been said so far; as soon as FATE was sent to the past, it has been monitoring the two dimensions the Time Crash created. Still, there seems to have been an additional influence on the dimensions in 1010, when Serge lived/died, as that is when the flow of time was split. Or perhaps "diverged" might be a better term; two flows of time until then progressing in lockstep. But with the death of Serge, the dimensions began to diverge and FATE lost control over Home World.

However, that isn't a perfect supposition. The 6 dragon gods existed in both dimensions for a time, but in each 3 were removed somehow. The removal seems to have taken place in 1010 as well (that is when the various environments began to diverge from each other, Water and Earth Dragon Isles illustrate). So if the dimensions had existed since 12,000BC (or since 2400 AD, depending on how you want to look at it), why were the duplicate dragons only eliminated in 1010? And why in both worlds?

Setting that aside and picking up the two different flows of time in the Sea of Eden/The Dead Sea, we have a curious statement from the Chief in Chronopolis:

   If this experiment succeeds,
   we will be able to control time.
   We will have complete control over
   history and, in a sense, become
   a presence, much like god...

This seems to indicate that the time for the city would flow fundamentally differently than the rest of the world; indeed, it even looks like the Chief might be supposing that IF the counter-time experiment was successful, the city would become a presence in time. Which is to say, it might have existed in all time periods (or at least had access to all time periods). If we then place that oddity back into the timeline, we might have two flows of time side by side; Chronopolis' "presence" flow and the area's "narual" flow. That would explain why both the Dead Sea and the Sea of Eden seem to behave as if some things are almost frozen in time while other things are moving apace normal time.

The Dead Sea would have appeared in Home World because the "presence" time of Chronopolis would have remained even when the city was undone. The past, present, and future all sort of being mashed together in that one location.

Course, that still doesn't even approach why the dead sea was formed in the first place.

[utunnels]

Yeah, something is fishy. The report said FATE lost control to Home World since  1010 A.D. So no matter whether that is a way to express the world was divided in 1010 A.D., or FATE has been always observing the 2 time lines, the fact is FATE cares about Home World, why?

This seems to indicate that the time for the city would flow fundamentally differently than the rest of the world; indeed, it even looks like the Chief might be supposing that IF the counter-time experiment was successful, the city would become a presence in time.

This makes sense to me.

[killercactus]

I'm convinced the Dead Sea is no more than a version of the Grandfather Paradox, personally.  That was what Chronopolis was afraid of, and why it terraformed El Nido and made sure the citizens had no contact with the mainland.

I know the GF Paradox isn't really supposed to exist in the Chronoverse, but the Time Crash was irregular.  Lavos pulled Chronopolis - that's different from normal time travel that we see in game.  When Crono steps into a gate, he can arrive at a new timeline, because the old one didn't have him there and knows nothing about him.  However, when someone from the old timelines pulls something else to itself, how can it end up anywhere except in the old timeline?  I guess it seems illogical to me that something from Timeline A can pull in something from the future of Timeline A, and create Timeline B by doing so.  It makes more sense that Timeline A would just be overwritten to make Timeline A'. 

Also, that quote from the chief fits in with my theory that said locking FATE out of the flame in the present can change things in the past.  I'm surprised I've never read that before.

[placidchap]

GF Paradox does exist in the game, since it is explicitly said.  People just don't like it so they create theories to work around it.  I've never seen something that is normally considered canon so easily disregarded.  Usually things said in game are the final word...but not for this.  I am aware that one of the creators said that there was some disagreements or something to that effect in the process of creating the game...but until it is retconned, I'd have to say that the GF Paradox should be apart of the theories.  It may not be a universal rule, but it does exist on some level in the Chronoverse....

Well those are my recent thoughts...

[Thought]

Also, that quote from the chief fits in with my theory that said locking FATE out of the flame in the present can change things in the past.  I'm surprised I've never read that before.

Not really, if locking FATE out from accessing the FF in the present can effect the past, why did Miguel remember 4 years of Chronopolis and then 10 years of the Dead Sea? If it went backwards through time, it seems like he would have remembers all of one or the other, not both.

[killercactus]

Also, that quote from the chief fits in with my theory that said locking FATE out of the flame in the present can change things in the past.  I'm surprised I've never read that before.

Not really, if locking FATE out from accessing the FF in the present can effect the past, why did Miguel remember 4 years of Chronopolis and then 10 years of the Dead Sea? If it went backwards through time, it seems like he would have remembers all of one or the other, not both.

He would remember 4 years of Chronopolis because of your excellent Elastic Time theory - things don't happen until they "happen".  If Serge's survival is the ultimate cause of the ruined future / Dead Sea, then the Sea can't exist until Serge actually survives - which is 1010 AD.  Even if Serge's survival effects a past event, the effects of that event can't be seen in the timeline until he is actually saved!

[chrono eric]

Even if the dimensions were always separate, the Dead Sea appearing in 1010 can still be explained.  Pulling from Thought's "Elastic Time" analysis, things don't seem to happen in the series until they actually "happen".  For example, Lavos doesn't vanish from 1999 AD as soon as Marle and Crono collide, or as soon as Marle is warped back to 600 AD.  It changes when Lavos is destroyed.

I thought of that already, but problems arise with it. If the Sea of Eden/The Dead Sea really exists in the future and is simply connected to the past, then presumably it would work the way you have said. However, this is a fan theory that was developed to help explain plot events and there is little to no evidence for it in the script. The script says that Chronopolis was sent to the past. If it was sent to the past, then when Serge survives and the future is altered, the Sea of Eden would not immediately transform into the Dead Sea in 1010 AD, but would instead transform further back in 12,000 BC. These effects could not be observed, however, until another cycle of time error occurs.

[killercactus]

Even if the dimensions were always separate, the Dead Sea appearing in 1010 can still be explained.  Pulling from Thought's "Elastic Time" analysis, things don't seem to happen in the series until they actually "happen".  For example, Lavos doesn't vanish from 1999 AD as soon as Marle and Crono collide, or as soon as Marle is warped back to 600 AD.  It changes when Lavos is destroyed.

I thought of that already, but problems arise with it. If the Sea of Eden/The Dead Sea really exists in the future and is simply connected to the past, then presumably it would work the way you have said. However, this is a fan theory that was developed to help explain plot events and there is little to no evidence for it in the script. The script says that Chronopolis was sent to the past. If it was sent to the past, then when Serge survives and the future is altered, the Sea of Eden would not immediately transform into the Dead Sea in 1010 AD, but would instead transform further back in 12,000 BC. These effects could not be observed, however, until another cycle of time error occurs.

That, of course, assumes that time is cyclic. 

Even if the Dead Sea does transform in 12000BC, it would be an instantaneous change to the timeline for all those in 1010 AD, would it not?  That would still explain Miguel.  However, I guess there is the problem with El Nido potentially not existing if FATE isn't there to terra-form it.

Also, if Chronopolis was sent to the past, it should have TTI, which would protect it's introduction into 12000 BC no matter what happens.  It's tough to predict what would / wouldn't happen to Chronopolis since it's kinda irregular.

[chrono eric]

Also, if Chronopolis was sent to the past, it should have TTI, which would protect it's introduction into 12000 BC no matter what happens.  It's tough to predict what would / wouldn't happen to Chronopolis since it's kinda irregular.

It would protect its introduction to 12,000 BC but not necessarily protect its continued existence in 12,000 BC. Look what happens to Marle.

[Thought]

Thus, why the compendium supposed that Chronopolis is really in a time bubble, as it were. The city itself never actually traveled through time, but the area around it became a gate. Which is to say, when the Time Crash happened, those inside of Chronopolis never went back in time until they left Chronopolis. Entering and exiting the Sea of Eden is time travel. Which would grant TTI to Chronopolis' actions on the larger world, but not to the city itself.

Its very confusing but it would seemingly work under the standard model... except, again, for Miguel remebering living in Chronopolis for 4 years and the Dead Sea for 10.

[utunnels]

   I'm Miguel.
   A friend of your father.
   According to the time outside,
   it's been about 14 years since
   the night of the storm...

He says according to the time outside.
Perhaps the time in Dead Sea is frozen, so is Chronopolis.
But maybe 14 years is not too long period, so I can't tell whehter Miguel looks exactly the same like 14 years before, although there's a portrait...

[Thought]

Meh, that wouldn't do too much good. Radius doesn't seem to age between when he found the Masamune and the game itself either.

Though even if Miguel's sense of time wasn't the same as 14 years, he still seems to have remembered being in Chronopolis and the Tower of Gedon. Hence, the oddity.