Taking another look at how Serge's survival causes Home World's destruction

[killercactus]

I guess I was thinking along the lines that Chronopolis operates outside the normal flow of time, and is really only subject to Time Error.  Say, if the point at which Serge is saved, and Chronopolis turns into the Dead Sea is Time Error X.  Even though the Dead Sea would appear in 12000 BC, it would appear in 12000 BC at Time Error X, not Time Error X-13010.  Also, I was operating under the assumption that, if someone then entered Chronopolis / The Dead Sea in 12000 BC, they would find Miguel there.

However, there is still a chink in my theory.  If that were so, Miguel should remember 14 years in Chronopolis and 10 years in the Dead Sea, unless Kid's time travel back to save Serge happened at a Time Error before Miguel was imprisoned.  That, however, doesn't seem to work.

EDIT:  Over in the Time/Space forum, we got talking about Miguel.  Since Miguel isn't found in the Sea of Eden in another world, we concluded that Another World Miguel was sent to Home World to guard that Frozen Flame, since Home World Miguel presumably perished with the formation of the Dead Sea.  If that is so, Miguel would remember 4 years in Chronopolis (Another World) and 10 years in the Dead Sea (Home World), regardless of when the Dead Sea was introduced into Home World, even if it was 12000 BC.

[killercactus]

Waitaminute, if Home World and Another World share their history before 1010 AD, then FATE must have told the girl not to be a poet sometime after 1010 AD.

And isn't that significant? Did that happen in Home World or Another World? Because in Home World FATE supposedly could not intervene after 1010 AD.

Sorry for the double post, but this is a different issue than my previous post, though I think it also supports the "different pasts" line of thinking.

chrono eric, we decided a couple pages back that this girl must have been told not to be a poet in Another World after 1010 AD.  However, the following quote suggests she was told in Home World:

An instruction to the young girl
   in Arni 01 to give up going to
   the main continent as a poet....

However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.
   And with much difficulty, FATE
   succeeded in binding Miguel
   to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

This also backs up Acacia Sgt.'s idea that Miguel was taken from Another World into the Dead Sea in Home World.

If FATE gave the instruction in Home World, it had to be before 1010 AD, right?

[chrono eric]

Ah, an inconsistency. The pasts should be the same before 1010 AD, but that strongly suggests a difference between both dimensions before 1010 AD. Do we know if this is an english translation error or representative of the original script?

[utunnels]

Hey, friends, FATE called Home World "World 01".
If the FATE witness the event that the world was divided (for example, FATE is a god who is outside both world), why HW is named World 01?
Isn't that against normal habit?

[killercactus]

Ah, an inconsistency. The pasts should be the same before 1010 AD, but that strongly suggests a difference between both dimensions before 1010 AD. Do we know if this is an english translation error or representative of the original script?

Actually, now that I think on it, FATE could've told that girl in 1012 AD before Kid went back in time and saved Serge.  So, she would've been told in a discarded timeline of Home World and in Another World.  But still, the statement itself by the computer suggests that 01 and 02 have always been separate.

And utunnels, I wondered this morning about why Home World is World 01.  If the dimensions didn't split until 1010, I would think Home World would be 02, since it was the result of Kid saving Serge, not the original timeline.

I'm really starting to believe that both dimensions were always there, and just parallel until 1010, where they start to differ due to Serge's survival, and Serge just happens to be able to travel between them due to his Arbiter status.  Opassa Beach is the location because that is where the event that caused the dimension lines to begin to skew took place.

[Acacia Sgt]

I'm really starting to believe that both dimensions were always there, and just parallel until 1010, where they start to differ due to Serge's survival, and Serge just happens to be able to travel between them due to his Arbiter status.  Opassa Beach is the location because that is where the event that caused the dimension lines to begin to skew took place.

If so, then why it is said several times that it was a split?

[utunnels]

According to ghost Lucca, Kid was supposed to call Serge into another world at Oppasa Beach in 1020 A.D.
But it seems CC's story took place before all of those.

So if we accept that Another World is the original timeline, maybe the history was changed anyway when Home World was "created": Serge arrived AW before Kid's time travel.
                            1010                     1020 A.W.
                                 _______________|________
__________________/________________________
                               |                           |
                               |                        1020 Original
                               |_________________________
                                                           |
                                                        1020 H.W.

[Acacia Sgt]

Before? I don't think so, Kid calls him precisely when Lucca says she would.

[utunnels]

If AW was the original timeline, Kid should time travel to 1010 A.D. to save Serge, then call him into AW at Opassa Beach in 1020 A.D.
But you know when Serge arrived AW 1020, this Kid didn't know anything about that...

So if we accept AW is the original timeline, CC's story must happen before that.

   Further in the future, Kid
   is meant to travel back ten
   years in time from now to
   save Serge from drowning.
   And then, Kid was also
   meant to call Serge into the
   other world as he spoke with
   Leena here on Opassa Beach!

Edit*

Hmm, so my chart is not correct...



According to CT's single timeline model, if Kid time-travels back to 1010 A.D. and saves Serge, the history is changed.
So when she comes back to 1020, she's in a changed timeline(like in CT, you picked up the rainbow shell in 600 A.D., and the Castle has been changed in 1000 A.D.)

So when she comes back, shouldn't she be in a timeline with Serge survived? So this Kid should be in HW.
It seems ghost Lucca said those at HW's Opassa Beach?

[Acacia Sgt]

If Kid didn't knew of calling him... the who was calling him before he did?

[utunnels]

That's a puzzle that has puzzled me for a long time.

Maybe when I saw this article long time ago...http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Cross_Resolutions.html

[killercactus]

I'm really starting to believe that both dimensions were always there, and just parallel until 1010, where they start to differ due to Serge's survival, and Serge just happens to be able to travel between them due to his Arbiter status.  Opassa Beach is the location because that is where the event that caused the dimension lines to begin to skew took place.

If so, then why it is said several times that it was a split?

The dimensions did split - they just split away from each other instead of splitting apart from one line.

             1010
_________l___________    Another

_________                        Home
                \
                  \
                    \

They're the same until 1010, then Home World skews off course.

[Thought]

According to CT's single timeline model, if Kid time-travels back to 1010 A.D. and saves Serge, the history is changed.
So when she comes back to 1020, she's in a changed timeline(like in CT, you picked up the rainbow shell in 600 A.D., and the Castle has been changed in 1000 A.D.)

So when she comes back, shouldn't she be in a timeline with Serge survived? So this Kid should be in HW.
It seems ghost Lucca said those at HW's Opassa Beach?

That is one of the reasons the split is thought to have happened at 1010. Kid travels back and tries to save him. There is a 50/50 chance and the dimensions split. Kid returns to the "future" in what is now Another World, having failed. She then travels to 1020, I guess, to call Serge across the dimensions.

Which means that I think there should be a Future-Kid in homeworld that suceeded in saving Serge. Maybe.

Or if we take the two dimensional model, in both dimensions a Kid travels back to 1010 to save Serge. In one she suceeds, in the other she fails. One changes the future, the other doesn't.

[utunnels]

I'm trying to put things in order.
Well, I'm speaking pre-1999 AD Lavos (or more specific, 12000 BC Lavos). It is too complex to discuss the whole time span.

*In Lavos timeline, it is 100% sure that it will destroy the planet in 1999 AD when it awakes.
*Gates opens (by the Entity or?).
*Lavos foresees the possibility it will be destroyed in 1999 AD since the gates allow time travel.
*Lavos sends a group of Zealians to different eras to change the history, to maximize its success rate in 1999 AD.
*Belthasar, who arrives 2300 AD (either the doomed future or the post-CT futures).
*In post-CT future(or could we say, one of the futures), Belthasar starts Project Kid (results the creation of Chronopolis, etc.)
*An experiment takes place in 2400 AD in Chronopolis.
*Lavos pulls Chronopolis back to change history before 1999 AD.
*The planet pulls Dinopolis back to counter Chronopolis.
*Chronopolis defeats Dinopolis and blahblah.

I used possibility a lot, just because according to Miguel's interpretation of history, the future is supposed to be composed by choices, no one can foresee a thing which has multiple choices.

As for Serge's survival, I guess he may communicate with the Frozen Flame and get controlled by Lavos and blahblah. That is not I want to make out right now.

[Acacia Sgt]

*Lavos sends a group of Zealians to different eras to change the history, to maximize its success rate in 1999 AD.

This event don't quite happens. When Lavos did it, if you meant the Gurus and Janus, it was before the opening of the gates and learning of the threat they posed to it's arising since there isn't any other Zealian sent through time by Lavos other than those four.