Author Topic: Taking another look at how Serge's survival causes Home World's destruction  (Read 19798 times)

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Quote from: Boo the Gentleman Caller on Today at 01:44:10 PM

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If Queen Zeal was indeed the Arbiter, then what was Schala's role with the Frozen Flame and the Mammon Machine?

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Arbiter to the FF.

That's my thought.  Schala seemed more in tune with the Mammon Machine, which may have contained the Frozen Flame (or at least channeled it's energy).  But Queen Zeal was a direct representative of Lavos itself.

Thought

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I looked back over the script and it looks like there might actually be two very distinct “Arbiter” statuses granted throughout the game (possibly indicating a poor translation, like how the unified Dragon God is called the Time Devourer but, to my understanding, this was not the case in the original language). To illustrate:

Quote from: Chronopolis Ghost
Only personnel registered as '"Arbiter"' may enter.

Arbiter is a status that is registered in Chronopolis. Seemingly, this is not a unique status (note: "personnel" is inherently plural).

Quote from: Chronopolis Computer
Only personnel registered as '"Arbiter"' may enter.
Please conduct security check for verification.
Unauthorized entry or tampering with security system will result in death.
Operate at your own risk.

............
Analysis complete.
Fingerprints, retina, and C class DNA all clear. Data discrepancy due to aging within permissible range.
96% confirmation that this individual is the last registered arbiter.
Access granted.

Welcome back, Chrono Trigger.

Again, we have that Arbiter is something registered by Chronopolis' security system (and the clear indication that there was at least one, probably several, arbiter(s) before Serge). I am curious, however, if just Serge was given the label Chrono Trigger, or if every Arbiter was given that title.

Quote from: Lynx
Contact with the Flame healed your young body. But that was not all...
Once the security card system was rebooted, it would only grant access to you...the '"arbiter."'

And here we have two actions being performed by two different agents. On one hand, Serge is healed. On the other hand, access to the frozen flame becomes limited to the arbiter. The actors are the Flame and the security system. Given this, it seems like locking out everyone but the arbiter (and in turn, identifying who that arbiter is so it can let him in) was the result of the security system, which was quite separate from the Frozen Flame healing Serge.

It seems that it is untenable to say that the arbiter status displayed in these quotes is anything but a security rank determined by Chronopolis and Chronopolis alone.

Going back to the actual definition of the word "arbiter" itself, this is probably specifically a status given to researchers (those who were testing and investigating the flame and "judging" their results).

However, "arbiter" is mentioned one other time in Chrono Cross:

Quote from: Marle
A new species is about to be born on this planet -- an alien life-form even more evolved than the old Lavos!
At the darkness beyond time, the weakened Schala came under the influence of Lavos, and the two became one entity.
It is now up to you, the one whom the Frozen Flame has chosen as its '"arbiter"'...
You alone can decide how the new Lavos, which has encaged Schala within it, will evolve from here!
Your actions will determine whether in the future all time is devoured by Lavos, sending the world into everlasting death.
Belthasar foresaw this was going to happen, in his world in the year 2300.
And he was determined to prevent it from happening, no matter what it took...

Actually, this quote has a lot of meat to it, but let me start with "Arbiter."

Here the Frozen Flame quite literally chooses Serge as the Arbiter, yet notably this is expressed by Marle, not Chronopolis. This being the (maybe) same Marle who (along with Crono and Lucca) accused Serge of "murdering" the future in a rather poetic manner. It is tenuous at best to link this status back to the status seen in Chronopolis, especially given what follows.

Marle tells us exactly what Serge is "judging" (remember, the definition of Arbiter is one with the authority to judge). As having this status of Arbiter, Serge is essentially judging how a new life form, the Time Devourer, gets to evolve (note, it is curious that Marle says that Serge is only determining how the TD will evolve, not if it will live or die). Schala, Zeal, FATE, even Belthasar were not the ones to have that sort of authority; they cannot have held the same Arbiter status that Marle is here ascribing to Serge.

The Frozen Flame is what chose Serge as the arbiter... but the Frozen Flame is a representation of Lavos, so it would seem that Lavos then was the one to choose Serge as the arbiter (and why give a human that authority?). However, Schala is the one encaged in Lavos (... almost like Schala is replacing the Lavos Core and bits... yay for circumstantial evidence that supports my multi-organism life-form definition of Lavos), so it may be her influence on the entirety of the creature that is actually what is communicating, through the FF, that Serge has authority.

Regardless, neither variations of Arbiter status, from the game, can apply to Schala or Zeal. However, one who touches the flame may gain a special connection (indeed, it is that connection that supposedly evolved humans), but this is not the same as Arbiter status (and in turn, Schala wasn't the arbiter of the frozen flame and Zeal wasn't the arbiter of Lavos). We might want to use the world Avatar instead, to make this distinction clear.

For some of the other meat of that quote, this actually seems to confirm that the TD doesn't consume time-space like a sandwich. Admittedly, when I first encountered the statement that he essentially ate time itself, I was imagining a sort of nonexistence left in its wake; it ate time-space, so time-space wasn't there anymore. But Marle clearly establishes that something still exists after the TD devours it... that something just happens to also be dead, and irrevocably so. Sort of like the Ruined Future, but for all of Space-Time.

To summarize, the TD does not "consume" space-time anymore than Lavos "consumed" the planet. Lavos was feeding off the energy, not the magma, precious metals, and soil of the planet. Likewise, the TD seems like it would have feed off the energy of space-time, not the specific locations and timelines themselves. We might equate the end result of the TD as being like heat-death, only cold-death. There is no energy so nothing can ever happen.

Also, it is quite clearly established that the TD was to be born there on Opassa Beach. This seems to make it clear that the Time Devourer would have been able to use the gate Serge created to return to real time, or at least have a connection to real time.

Finally, that quote seems to indicate that Serge did not destroy the Time Devourer. Rather, he changed its evolution but it is implied that it still exists. Perhaps it merely reverted to Lavos and was lost to the DBT, perhaps it reverted to Lavos and awaits for a new victim to find its way into the DBT (look out Janus). Or perhaps Schala might even be the result of this "evolution." I think Kato may have been specifically giving himself room for a third installment.

BROJ

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Quote from: Chronopolis Ghost
Only personnel registered as '"Arbiter"' may enter.

Arbiter is a status that is registered in Chronopolis. Seemingly, this is not a unique status (note: "personnel" is inherently plural).


Quote from: Chronopolis Computer
Only personnel registered as '"Arbiter"' may enter.
Please conduct security check for verification.
Unauthorized entry or tampering with security system will result in death.
Operate at your own risk.

............
Analysis complete.
Fingerprints, retina, and C class DNA all clear. Data discrepancy due to aging within permissible range.
96% confirmation that this individual is the last registered arbiter.
Access granted.

Welcome back, Chrono Trigger.

Again, we have that Arbiter is something registered by Chronopolis' security system (and the clear indication that there was at least one, probably several, arbiter(s) before Serge). I am curious, however, if just Serge was given the label Chrono Trigger, or if every Arbiter was given that title.
I think that's taking the statement too explicitly; it's more likely to be "Only personnel registered as '"x"' may enter."; where x=Arbiter--allowing for multiple levels of security clearance. It's likely 'Arbiter' can be alluded to as 'Administrator Privileges'.

Marle tells us exactly what Serge is "judging" (remember, the definition of Arbiter is one with the authority to judge). As having this status of Arbiter, Serge is essentially judging how a new life form, the Time Devourer, gets to evolve (note, it is curious that Marle says that Serge is only determining how the TD will evolve, not if it will live or die). Schala, Zeal, FATE, even Belthasar were not the ones to have that sort of authority; they cannot have held the same Arbiter status that Marle is here ascribing to Serge.
Makes sense... but one can still 'kill' Lavos with good ol' fashioned cold steel as implied if the player does not use the CC.

Regardless, neither variations of Arbiter status, from the game, can apply to Schala or Zeal.
This one's trickier than you're putting it out to be. One has to consider that Schala could 'control'(or judge how it should behave, albeit 'most' of the time) the Mammon Machine and that Queen Zeal could 'control' Lavos.

To summarize, the TD does not "consume" space-time anymore than Lavos "consumed" the planet.
It was a joke... :roll:
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 03:31:08 pm by BROJ »

Thought

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To summarize, the TD does not "consume" space-time anymore than Lavos "consumed" the planet.
It was a joke... :roll:

Actually, I was referring to how I used to imagine the TD was supposed to consume space-time (essentially, like a sandwich... or pellets, if you prefer).

FaustWolf

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To summarize, the TD does not "consume" space-time anymore than Lavos "consumed" the planet. Lavos was feeding off the energy, not the magma, precious metals, and soil of the planet. Likewise, the TD seems like it would have feed off the energy of space-time, not the specific locations and timelines themselves. We might equate the end result of the TD as being like heat-death, only cold-death. There is no energy so nothing can ever happen.

Damn, I like that! Pray tell, could the TD consume even the Entity, do you think? I wonder if Lavos eventually consumes the Entity in CT's doomed future, and hence the campfire musings suggesting that the Entity is in the process of watching its life "flash before its eyes" in its dying moments. Though to be fair, that wasn't attributed directly to the Entity, but rather used as a potential analogy for what the Entity was going through.

Love the Illustrated Pacman Theory, BROJ! I had always taken it literally in that exact sense, but I must admit I really like the energy-absorption interpretation. My fanon senses were always along the lines Thought proposes, but if a case could be made for the energy absorption thing to be canonical, wow! However, right before fighting the Lavos core in CT, doesn't one of the party members say something about Lavos absorbing DNA from planetary creatures or something? That would indicate a physical sampling and absorption and not just a metaphysical "energy absorption."
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 12:22:08 am by FaustWolf »

Thought

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However, right before fighting the Lavos core in CT, doesn't one of the party members say something about Lavos absorbing DNA from planetary creatures or something? That would indicate a physical sampling and absorption and not just a metaphysical "energy absorption."

Maybe. The problem with that is that how would Lavos have gotten a physical sample of DNA in the first place? I mean, it isn't like he can snatch whatever happened to be passing by his lair or something; he is miles below the surface of the planet (and possibly in a pocket dimension). Doesn't seem very conducive to field collection.

In CC, when Serge gets his body back, the Dragon's Tear didn't have a DNA sample to clone him from yet it reproduced it accurately enough to satisfy the computers are Chronopolis. Perhaps Lavos has similar powers; he is able to detect genetic code without a physical sample.

However, given that Lavos produces physical spawn, it would seem that matter consumption is a component as well (just not a primary food source). Perhaps Lavos is like a plant; it gets its food from energy (sunlight) but it still has to have material components (soil) in order to grow. In turn, Lavos gets its food from energy (the Entity, or any similar planet it lands on) but it still has to have some material components.

... curiously, Lavos spawns above ground it seems. So that would imply that the material components it needs can't be found underground. The only thing that comes to mind is life. I wonder if Lavos actually needs biological matter in order to spawn (as the surface would have that in aplenty, while the underground not so much). It could be that the Day of Lavos is just it gathering enough biological matter in order to spawn. If you watch Dr. Who, this might be similar to how the Dalek emperor rebuilt his race in The Parting of the Ways (synopsis on Wikipedia).

EDIT: Just realized that it in the Chronoverse Lavos might not actually need matter in order to reproduce. The enertrons, for example, seem to keep people alive without material input and it allows people to grow into adults, though not in an ideal form. It may be incorrect to assume that beings in the Chronoverse actually have to have matter in order to grow.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 11:54:09 am by Thought »

FaustWolf

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Plus, matter and energy should be interchangeable if E = mc^2 implies such. Therefore, if Lavos has a hella lot of energy, it could shape matter from that energy. Though I've always preferred the idea of Lavos assembling its spawn from matter found on the surface, as it seems most economical.

Here's some pertinent "confronting Lavos" segments from the Compendium's retranslation of CT, which should be most accurate to Kato's conceptions:

Robo: I! I canNOT believe it......!
   It HAS the genes of all living creatures since
   its birth on this planet!

Marle: H, human form......
   It, it, don't tell me......
   It couldn't be armed with the powers of
   every living thing on this planet......?

   That's it! Ever since it fell in Primeval times, it's
   been under us, absorbing all the living things
   on this planet the whole time......!!

Lucca: I, I've figured it out.
   Its aims......

   It's parasitic on a planet, and picks out and
   collects the superior parts of the life forms on
   that planet over a long time......

   It bears children with those genes on that Death
   Mountain, and then on to another planet......

Robo: TH, THIS was Lavos's goal......!
   TO gain a record of the genes of every living
   creature on the planet...…
   And TO achieve evolution itself!

Magus: .......
   It's slept underground and kept on making the
   the evolution of all life on this planet its own
   since ancient eras......?

This last one comes with a note:
In the NA version, Magus noted that Lavos had been "controlling evolution for its own purposes." This makes it seem as if Lavos were actively guiding evolution. In fact, the only known instance of this is humanity's contact with the Frozen Flame. In the Japanese version, Magus merely says that Lavos has been "making the evolution of all life...its own," which is similar to the other party members' statements that Lavos is merely harvesting certain traits for his own evolution. It is far removed from the sweeping statement that Lavos controlled absolutely everything.


I agree it's clear that the spawning process can only be done above ground. Lavos cannot accomplish its replication in the center of the earth or in its pocket dimension if Lucca has an accurate understanding of the matter.

As far as absorption of DNA, could Lavos have *brought* selected organisms to itself via spacial distortions, like mini wormholes?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 01:47:26 pm by FaustWolf »

BROJ

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Robo: TH, THIS was Lavos's goal......!
   TO gain a record of the genes of every living
   creature on the planet...…
   And TO achieve evolution itself!
This is interesting; could this imply that Lavos could actually be *incapable* of true evolution, further implying that Lavos was 'hand-made' by (a) sentient being(s) rather than being a true organism(i.e. an A.I.)?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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I believe that Lavos' "purpose" was to facilitate the evolution of the species of the planet in order to gain optimum genetic traits.  By adapting those traits to itself and passing them on to it's offspring, the Lavoid offspring gain positive evolutionary traits and can begin the process again on another world.

In essence, a Lavoid seeks to gain perfection.  Not because perfection is a literal goal, however, but because by seeking perfection one gains true evolutionary advantages (aka 'survival of the fittest' to the nth degree).

FaustWolf

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I see no reason why Lavos' "survival of the fittest" necessarily conflicts with the possibility that it is the product of a uber weapons program. A self-replicating and evolving weapon...like BROJ, I've got Xenogears on the brain, hehe.

FATE is certainly an artificially produced being, and she was trying to obtain evolution or something, wasn't she? Uh, is FATE even a "she?" Now I'm confuzzled as to why I thought so in the first place. Probably because it was based on the MotherBrain AI system.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Plus, the mecha-organic creation/avatar of FATE (the one fought by Serge and company within Chronopolis) was female, so presumably, FATE is an extension of the female personification.

BROJ

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I see no reason why Lavos' "survival of the fittest" necessarily conflicts with the possibility that it is the product of a uber weapons program. A self-replicating and evolving weapon...like BROJ, I've got Xenogears on the brain, hehe.

FATE is certainly an artificially produced being, and she was trying to obtain evolution or something, wasn't she? Uh, is FATE even a "she?" Now I'm confuzzled as to why I thought so in the first place. Probably because it was based on the MotherBrain AI system.
I'm going to pull this from an ill-attentioned thread and post it here as well...

I don't like the "living spaceship" theory too much. Lavos is clearly a organism that can reproduce (Lavos Spawns on Death Peak).
I never looked at Lavos as "living", but rather an artificial intelligence(a weapon/research vehicle ala Deus-Xenogears) so it's not much of a stretch to think that 'his' shell could be a space/time vehicle capable of sterilizing an entire planet(seriously do you think an organism can shoot massive amounts of pure energy from 'his' back? :wink:). Take a look at Lavos' original design and cell first form from DBZ(one of Toriyama's other works):

it's zoomed out and has more of a mechanical feel than the later organic adaptation. And notice how he looks like cell's first form ; he could be 'devouring' the entity/entity's energy just like cell did with the other androids in an attempt to evolve.(a possible crossover, hmm..?)

Not to mention, just like Lavos, Cell used 'other' organisms to further his evolution as well. (the similarities are endless...)
Edit: Perhaps the "Arbiters"(Serge, and theoretically Schala) were an allusion to the androids..?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 05:55:02 pm by BROJ »

Thought

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This is interesting; could this imply that Lavos could actually be *incapable* of true evolution, further implying that Lavos was 'hand-made' by (a) sentient being(s) rather than being a true organism(i.e. an A.I.)?

Actually, we have more reason than just that to conclude that lavos is effectively incapable of true evolution. A single Lavoid's reproduction time is horribly long; it is impossible for the species in general to react to any environmental change given the time scale (I am actually not even sure what sort of environmental change could effect the lavoids in such a was to promote evolution). There is a reason why a significant of endangered species also happen to be species that don't reproduce at a young age or often; evolution happens slower and so they cannot adjust as well. For Lavoids, evolution might be theoretically possible, but it might well require greater time periods than galaxies live for.

However, absorbing genetic information isn't out of the realm of nature either. There are viruses that can pass information along (particularly, drug resistances come to mind) without actually replicating. Human DNA is also altered fairly regularly by viruses. It may just be a natural occurring creature that developed in such a way that normal means of evolution are not longer viable for it.

... in order to gain optimum genetic traits.

But what does that actually mean? A polar bear might be genetically optimum for its natural environment, but utterly useless in another. Perhaps genetic diversity is its real goal? Lavos might have the genetic code for nine hundred thousand different circulatory systems, so if it ever needs to it can replace on with another. Though, I guess that makes Lavos like a giant evil librarian of sorts.

As for Lavos' origins... I favor a "natural" occurrence over a created weapon, but I think Lavos generally fits in rather well with the Old Ones like Cthulu (seriously, they go out for drinks and play plknulot 'pgazbt style poker every Thursday). Don't have a legitimate reason for that, just how I like to perceive him.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Lavos might have the genetic code for nine hundred thousand different circulatory systems, so if it ever needs to it can replace on with another.

Exactly my point.  Optimum genetic materials at it's own disposal.

And as for Lavos' similarity to Lovecraft's Cthluthu lore: absolutely.  I think Lavos was sort of created with that mysterious, otherworldly, unimaginable terror in mind.

FaustWolf

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Regardless of Lavos' true origins, it is at least clear that it evolves by sampling the genes of living things, gradually perfecting itself like the Borg...maybe?

The Time Devourer is also said to "evolve," right? And Serge is said to determine that evolution...man, this is getting convoluted (as if it didn't start out that way 8)). Is there any evidence to indicate that the TD evolves via the same means as Lavos, i.e., by acquiring genetic material? But such collection would be difficult to do from the Darkness Beyond Time, unless Serge, as an Arbiter, is key to unlocking it from that prison or something.

Now I'm going to have to take a look at HP Lovecraft's Cthulhu works. I wonder if Kato read them...

Also, I'm wondering whether the doomed outcome on Homeworld assumes Serge never crosses over into Another, or if it requires that Serge cross over into Another. IIRC, FATE calculates that Serge's crossing is a "certainty" on a specific date...or at least an extremely probable event.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 06:15:33 pm by FaustWolf »