If you could change Chrono Cross, how would you do it?

[Shadow D. Darkman]

-Incorporate Compendium theories and wherever CT Compendium theories would affect CC.

-Bring back Magus. Leave Guile in if necessary, if not, replace him with Magus.

-Give Serge some speech. (Not RD Serge. CC Serge kicks ass with the Mastermune)

-Use CT Battle System.

-FILL IN THOSE DAMN PLOTHOLES, YOU SICK F***S!!!

Personally I prefer the CC battle system. 

I don't sorry. Too damn complicated for me.

[Delta Dragon]

Two of the main reasons I prefer it are you rarely have to rely on items for healing, and it's completely unique.  When you think about it the CT battle system is similar to a lot of RPGs.  Okay maybe not a lot, but you get my point. And it's not even that complicated. 

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Chrono Cross' battle engine was a huge departure and was pretty unique (in 1999-2000) as far as RPG battle engines stood.  In fact, I'd think it still stands out as far as functional, working, and just strong.

Now, do I prefer it to Chrono Trigger's?  Nope.

[x_XTacTX_x]

CC battle engine > CT battle engine

I'm sorry, but it's just downright true.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Chrono Cross' battle engine was a huge departure and was pretty unique (in 1999-2000) as far as RPG battle engines stood.  In fact, I'd think it still stands out as far as functional, working, and just strong.

Now, do I prefer it to Chrono Trigger's?  Nope.

I admit, Cross' Battle System was unique, as no RPG so far has implemented it yet, but it was hard as hell. I remember hitting a roadblock with the Hi-Ho Tank. I was looking forward to playing as Lynx.

[V_Translanka]

Hard? I thought it was the exact opposite...It was less 'complicated' & more just packed full of unnecessary crap...It seemed like they just threw in every little idea they thought of to try and make something interesting & new.

CT's battle system seems better because the cast was so well defined. Each character filled a specific role by having certain attributes that held them above the others for certain reasons. The attacker, the healer, the mage & those that were middle of the roads...each character & combination could fit your own style of play...in CC the differences in stats were negligible at best...some may have had higher attack or magic stats, but it rarely really changed anything because pretty much everyone had the same 3 Techs (that looked different) & all the same Element magics.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

It was hard for me.

[Celestial Insanity]

It seemed like they just threw in every little idea they thought of to try and make something interesting & new.

Except that it was interesting and new. I personally found CC's battle system far more captivating and, yes, more enjoyable than CT's.

The complaints I'm reading about the story and the characters are laughable. So, basically, the plot sucks because it was complex and required you to think a little? "HERF DERF CC WAS CONFUSING", yeah, okay. To me, it was quite intriguing and the twists throughout upheld my interest and urged me to unravel more of its mysteries, which I found very rewarding upon doing; The pace wasn't entirely consistent at all times, but sufficient enough to thrill and encourage me to keep playing. To be frank, the fact that several of the characters lack development isn't that much different from CT's characters, and it really isn't an aspect that deserves much whining and moaning considering that it can be circumvented; It's not going to drag your experience down since you don't have to have them join your party and more than half the cast can be easily avoided. I could complain about the majority of Trigger's characters here and the logic would be no different. Despite the extent of development, a fair number of CC's cast really stood out in my mind. Again, yes, slightly more so than in CT (but that's probably because CC had more characters to begin with).

I'm sorry, but I've got to admit that several of you seem to be overemphasizing CC's flaws to immense proportions. Considering that just the same could be done with technically any game, this is an unfair assessment. Having played both games, I'm finding that too many are clinging to and being downright biased towards CT, whether this is fueled by nostalgia and/or frustration at a different feel (even though I wasn't bothered at all by it). Several fans are rather hesitant to admit that CC did, in fact, improve upon a great many of CT's aspects.

If I was to change something, though, I'd definitely vote on raising the difficulty a bit. The game did get a bit easy at times.

[V_Translanka]

The only new & interesting aspect of the battle system was the hit percentage attack thing...and that really didn't end up changing much at all. Everything else could pretty much be found in other RPGs, including the lens flares. *nyuck nyuck*

I find that everyone on each side compares it to CT, whether they like it or not ("It's totally not as good as CT"..."It's even better than CT")...whether one reaction is because of the other, I don't know, but I think they certainly both feed off of one another...

the fact that several of the characters lack development...

Try well over half.

it (the low amount of Character Development) really isn't an aspect that deserves much whining and moaning considering that it can be circumvented...you don't have to have them join your party and more than half the cast can be easily avoided.

Ah, yes, the old "they're optional!" argument...Doesn't fly with me...maybe because I really only see Kid & Harle to be anywhere near well developed members of the cast (and Harle's kind of stretching it)...If they're there, they should be more than pawns to move around in the battle system...They should be characters...The low amount of character development is actually accented by the fact that some of them actually do have one or two scenes (mostly when they go, "Hey! That's me! Only you're, like, kinda different & stuff! Here's a Lvl 7 Tech!")...These are RPGs, I think that Character Development should be a priority.

I could complain about the majority of Trigger's characters here and the logic would be no different.

Except that they were pretty much all well developed characters.

I'm sorry, but I've got to admit that several of you seem to be overemphasizing CC's flaws to immense proportions.

I see the exact opposite (people expressing how great CC is, usually followed by, "even in comparison to CT" as if to slap CT fans who didn't like CC as much in the face) happen just as much.

[ZeaLitY]

Eh...there's some development, but Trigger is overshadowed by Frog and Magus. They're so well developed that they make all the other characters comparatively puny.

[Celestial Insanity]

The only new & interesting aspect of the battle system was the hit percentage attack thing...and that really didn't end up changing much at all.

Really? I wasn't aware that the field effect and star leveling amongst a few other aspects weren't actually new or innovative. Regardless, I had a pretty fun experience with the battle system despite there being a few unnecessary abilities, whereas Trigger's battle system (which, let's admit, was still pretty basic despite the tech innovation) often required constant and desperate healing and reinforcing with me. The timing in certain battles also annoyed me, but that's another story.

I find that everyone on each side compares it to CT, whether they like it or not ("It's totally not as good as CT"..."It's even better than CT")...whether one reaction is because of the other, I don't know, but I think they certainly both feed off of one another...

Personally, I don't really feel that both games need to be constantly compared so much as acknowledged as two fantastic games in their own right, despite personal preference. And that is precisely why I drew on a few comparisons between the two.

Ah, yes, the old "they're optional!" argument

They are. Of course it could have been much better, but it's a relatively minor issue that's often inflated and exaggerated in a rather excessive attempt to downplay the entire game.

.If they're there, they should be more than pawns to move around in the battle system...They should be characters...

I'm sorry, but there is a difference between personality and character development. Character development refers to a dramatic change in characterization through plot events, personality does not. Reality check: Right many of Cross' characters do indeed have characterization in some form. As I've stated in my previous post, several of them really do stand out.

The low amount of character development is actually accented by the fact that some of them actually do have
one or two scenes

A fairly large portion of the party were given a few scenes for basic character establishment. It didn't incorporate much development by any means, true, but it didn't detract from the personality factor either. While character development in general can certainly improve an RPG's structure, I don't consider it absolutely essential so much as I do characterization alone (and as stated before, they should not be confused). I suppose this is where we disagree.

Except that they were pretty much all well developed characters.

I was referring more to the majority of all the major characters, including those not in the main party, though Crono himself pretty much lacks development completely. I don't really consider Lucca to be as well developed as she's sometimes made out to be, nor Ayla. Granted, a few of the party characters were given substantial focus.

I see the exact opposite (people expressing how great CC is, usually followed by, "even in comparison to CT" as if to slap CT fans who didn't like CC as much in the face) happen just as much.

That is irrelevant, since it doesn't really deem the bias any less significant, regardless of which game is at subject. It's still there. No matter how you spin it, CC is rarely acknowledged as a great game by Chrono's fan community. Personally, I see far more fans bashing CC than CT.

[mav]

I see the exact opposite (people expressing how great CC is, usually followed by, "even in comparison to CT" as if to slap CT fans who didn't like CC as much in the face) happen just as much.

That is irrelevant, since it doesn't really deem the bias any less significant, regardless of which game is at subject. It's still there. No matter how you spin it, CC is rarely acknowledged as a great game by Chrono's fan community. Personally, I see far more fans bashing CC than CT.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, while you do find more fans bashing CC than CT, a great portion of the Chrono Series fan community do have a fondness for Cross. Chrono Trigger fans, on the other hand, do sometimes fall into the category of "CC is too radical a departure from CT" and proceed to bash it. If we acknowledge that CC wasn't a direct sequel, then we can easily hold the game in its own light. CT has that nostalgia aspect to it, something that CC didn't seem to offer--of course some die hard fans are gonna use that as a reason to resent CC, but to say that Chrono fans don't acknowledge CC's greatness is kind of presumptuous.

As far as some of the other points you brought up go, I'll agree that CC's battle system was pretty damn innovative, I liked how easy CT's was, but CC's was definitely fun. My question to you about the characters is, do you think that the sheer amount of characters distracted from character development? You've already mentioned that personality and character are different, but I didn't see too much development in some of the CC characters. They had character, don't get me wrong, but did they really develop? Getting a small cut scene isn't development. And sure it can be circumvented, but why is that an excuse? Just cause you don't have to get a character doesn't mean they deserve to be worthless pawns, as V put it.

[V_Translanka]

Well, that's where we disagree then, Celestial Insanity, I count a character's personality as a part of Character Development.

I also think that in the case of Crono, Serge cancels him out. One shows emotion a few times and the other has a history. I'll take the few scenes of emotion (even just the surprised sprite scenes) over the lackluster Serge character we got in Cross who we get told about his past...

[Celestial Insanity]

You've already mentioned that personality and character are different, but I didn't see too much development in some of the CC characters. They had character, don't get me wrong, but did they really develop? Getting a small cut scene isn't development.

No, I don't recall arguing that they have.

And sure it can be circumvented, but why is that an excuse? Just cause you don't have to get a character doesn't mean they deserve to be worthless pawns, as V put it.

My point was that I don't really consider them to be worthless pawns due to the mere fact that they did have characterization. Yes, there was some wasted potential here because they lacked the development, but I honestly don't consider character development as a requirement in pawn avoidance. I consider characterization to be. Quite a few lovable characters - whether in fiction, gaming, or what have you - completely lack transition. I don't think Chrono Cross should suddenly be an exception.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying in any way that the lack of character development was a flaw, but I think the fact that they had characteristics and personalities alone prevented this from being too big of a deal. I'm simply conveying my opinion that this is a flaw very often blown out of proportion. Chrono Cross is by no means perfect; I just don't consider it to be as bad overall as some of those in this thread have.

[mav]

I'm not arguing that you said getting a small cut scene is development: I'm saying that I said it. You, however did mention that personality and character development are different:

I'm sorry, but there is a difference between personality and character development.

That's my mistake though, I did say character instead of character development.

But as far as these characters go, sure they didn't need to be developed--you're right, we have lovable characters elsewhere that are underdeveloped--but the enormity of the character roster coupled with many characters' underdevelopment does distract from the game, in my opinion. Then again, I'm not anti-CC at all, in fact, it's among the greatest RPGs that I've played.

You gotta remember, this thread is about what you'd change about Cross and how you'd do it. Just because I'm a fan of the game doesn't make it flawless, we do blow things out of proportion, I'll give you that, but to desire change is understandable.