Vipers...related to Tata?(+Pierre and Hero's Medal)

[Satoh]

ok lets look at something, Pierre's hero equipment seems to be the same ones from the previous chrono installment,

The hero medal: no one knows for certain where it went after 600AD, Glenn perhaps left it in the hands of someone he trusted, asin other theories, possibly someone in Porre.

If I remember correctly, Porre was home to Tata as well(the boy who cried hero). Tata, if you remember, had a shield--
a green slightly shiny one. This seems to be the same shield as is found in the Viper manor treasury.

Now, here is my theory, (I hope its a viable one this time XD; )

• Glenn establishes the Acacia Dragoons.
• Tata, seeking to redeem himself for past mistakes, trains and eventually joins the Dragoons
• Glenn entrusts the hero medal to the grand master reigning during his declining age and health
• Tata continues his family line and makes a tradition of a son being born into the Dragoons
• Tata's family either is, or becomes, the Viper family, whose heirlooms include Tata's shield
• The above mentioned grandmaster leaves in his age to start or be with his family, leaving the Medal to them
• Eventually Gen. Viper becomes the current heir to the Viper line, makes his name in porre etc etc and ends up in El Nido--taking the shield with him.
• The family of the ex-grandmaster  has continued now, and has a very strong sense of duty, honor, etc etc...but, being far removed from the Dragoon order themselves, are not entirely capable as warriors... more like "noblemen"
• Succeeding the ex-grandmaster family is Pierre, who made his way to El Nido to 'reclaim his family's glory as Dragoons' or something(as part of his quest, he takes his family heirloom, the hero medal with him, as proof of lineage)
• Serge is sucked into another world by the vaccuum of his absence, beginning the adventures in chrono cross, meeting pierre, viper, etc. linking their histories together once again.

Ok, I'm basing this on the theory that Glenn created the Dragoons in Porre after the events of CT. For sake of simplicity, we assume the family lines of all characters are fairly linear and not branching in every direction.

It doesn't take into account Glenn's(El Nido) relation to Glenn(Frog).

I am sorry if my thoughts seem stupid or not very well thought out, but I enjoy simply theorizing and conversing...

[x_XTacTX_x]

It's well put together, but in the end we would need to know for certain if Frog founded the Acacia Dragoons.

[V_Translanka]

Sorry to put an immediate damper on your theory, but...

CT's Hero's Medal



CC's Hero's Medal



They aren't the same, sorry...They don't even act the same! >_> Frog's increases the Masamune's C. Hit% where Pierre's increases his Evade%...

Pierre finds a different Hero's Medal. His medal looks starkly different from the original, though the tech Medalsome evokes the image of the original piece (acknowledging canonically that Pierre's is different). The original still exists and Pierre's Hero's Medal must be a knockoff -- perhaps a cheap imitation to go with his other bogus hero equipment.

People should use the Encyclopedia more. It's one of the many awesome aspects of the Compendium, y'know?

[FaustWolf]

Interesting theory nonetheless, too bad the visual evidence works against it -- though if Pierre can summon a vision of the true Hero Medal owned by Cyrus, knowledge of it could still have been acquired by the Acacia Dragoons or something.

Here's Medal Some, so everyone can see what V's talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJkxkLy9lQQ

I always rather liked the title, "Tata the Viper."

[Satoh]

Interesting theory nonetheless, too bad the visual evidence works against it -- though if Pierre can summon a vision of the true Hero Medal owned by Cyrus, knowledge of it could still have been acquired by the Acacia Dragoons or something.

Here's Medal Some, so everyone can see what V's talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJkxkLy9lQQ

I always rather liked the title, "Tata the Viper."

Thanks to you I remembered I had visual evidence of my own...

If the first one is indeed the Hero medal from Chrono Trigger, then there must be two medals in Chrono Cross...
Observe:


EDIT: also a note, the article about the hero's medal erroneously states that the Decor Shield is part of the hero equipment, the correct Item is the Hero's Shield... which is found in a similar looking, yet entirely different room in Viper Manor. The Decor Shield is a key item, and is not equippable, it is used to turn off one of the traps in the seconde treasure room.

EDIT2: the CC entry for the Hero Shield also erroneously states that it is obtained from a wall, this is again, the reverse, the Decor Shield. The Hero Shield is on display eqquipped on an empty cuirass in the first treasure room.

EDIT3:(oops spelling XD)

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[x_XTacTX_x]

On an unrelated note, how do  you pronounce "Tata"? At first, I used to say "Tah-Tah", but now I say it like "Tay-tuh".

[Satoh]

On an unrelated note, how do  you pronounce "Tata"? At first, I used to say "Tah-Tah", but now I say it like "Tay-tuh".

I say it like data but with a T... though, his name was Tartar in Jp... so... I assume the former is more proper than the latter....but tayta is easier for me to say...

[FaustWolf]

I imagine people from Porre having some sort of odd accent that would make it sound like Tie-tah, but that's just me.

HA!! Well, hell -- Pierre may indeed be wearing the Hero Medal! I'll back you up on that Satoh, here's a comparison of the medal on Pierre's texture with the one V posted, so everyone can see them side-by-side:



Looks like it's the Real McCoy, or a pretty damn good replica. If the Hero Medal as presented by the rare item art is supposed to be the same as the one Pierre's actually wearing, the rare item art's canonical status is in doubt...

[V_Translanka]

I don't even remember seeing that in-game...Does it only appear when you have his Hero's Medal equipped like the Hero's Shield?

[Satoh]

I don't even remember seeing that in-game...Does it only appear when you have his Hero's Medal equipped like the Hero's Shield?

wouldn't that make sense...? I mean if you de-equip your pants.... aren't you then logically pantsless?
So, in all logicality, it probably does only appear if you have it equipped... however, as I have the emulator running now, I'll test it...

EDIT:Oddly no, it remains in place even if you de-equip everything... I thought it would disappear, but then it is an essential object to the medalsome animation, so perhaps its alway there...

EDIT2: yay one of my theories is finally holding up a bit XD

[FaustWolf]

Yeah, Pierre's only got one model texture, so it makes the most sense to leave the medal on all the time. That's a relief to me, because I thought the model data was just about to get even more complicated...

However, this complicates the CT Hero Medal's relation to the CC Hero Medal, which may be two separate objects if we want to take visuals literally. It would be interesting to dig up anything Pierre says in the game script dealing with the Hero Medal so we can parse this out further.

[Satoh]

Yeah, Pierre's only got one model texture, so it makes the most sense to leave the medal on all the time. That's a relief to me, because I thought the model data was just about to get even more complicated...

lol

However, this complicates the CT Hero Medal's relation to the CC Hero Medal, which may be two separate objects if we want to take visuals literally. It would be interesting to dig up anything Pierre says in the game script dealing with the Hero Medal so we can parse this out further.

Regarding the illustrations for certain items in the Chrono games... I don't regard them with much validity, there have been one or two items that I remember seeing that did not match up at all with the item's design in the game. If I can find a list of the illustrations I might be able to prvide better evidence of this...

Also, don't forget that some of the illustrations may simply be detailed concept art.

[Vehek]

Check the encyclopedia. There should be graphics for all the key items.

[FaustWolf]

I peeked through the game script ZeaLitY and Terminus Traductions, among others, assembled, and Pierre refers to the accessory by the exact same name as it's referred to in Chrono Trigger I think -- Hero's Medal, with an apostraphe "s". Just sayin'.

It's weird that Pierre should say "I have lost mon Hero's Medal" when he's got it clipped to his chest, for chrissake. We can chalk that up to practical technical concerns, but it's doubly odd that the Rare Object designer and the texture artist would be so disconnected as to represent the same item in totally different fashion, with the texture artist honoring the Chrono Trigger design perfectly to boot.

EDIT: Wait, can Pierre do "Medal Some" before he finds the Hero's Medal in-game? The tech description says Pierre uses the "Hero's Badge" to restore some HP. I can't imagine he'd be left without a Level-3 innate tech, so that would further point to the possibility that the Chrono Trigger Hero's Medal and the one Pierre is looking for are separate items. Maybe he's just a kleptomaniac and gathers every hero-thingy he can find?

[Satoh]

yes I found them there, however I can't remember which items I was looking for...

however... it may only be a minor difference, but the dreamstone, sunstone, and moonstone look distinctly different from their representations in the game. I'm looking into the CC concept art now...

It's weird that Pierre should say "I have lost mon Hero's Medal" when he's got it clipped to his chest, for chrissake. We can chalk that up to practical technical concerns, but it's doubly odd that the Rare Object designer and the texture artist would be so disconnected as to represent the same item in totally different fashion, with the texture artist honoring the Chrono Trigger design perfectly to boot.

I don't believe the Hero's Medal is visible in the overworld model, I'd have to check, but it may only be visible in battle... such is the same for the shield after all... you of all people should be plenty aware that the battle and field models are distinctly separate

And besides that, it wouldn't be the first time two artists have been on completely different pages... The silver Hero's Medal seems to be more of a coat of arms to me... like it isn't actually meant to be a "medal"... but I don't know where the information or the source image came from so I can't say much more...


EDIT: but take for example the Time Egg, why does the CC one look so flagrantly different from the one in CT?
I think the concept artist was given a set of descriptions for the items and he drew whatever he came up with.