Schala a Violation of the Conservation of Matter?

[Thought]

To my understanding, one of the reasons for the development of the Time Bastard theory is a simple issue of the conservation of matter (it cannot be created or destroyed). However, considering Schala's situation, I have become doubtful as to if this real world law of physics actually applies to the Chronoverse. Specifically, Schala seems to be a direct violation of the conservation of matter.

Allow me to elaborate. Time Bastard states that duplicants are sent to the Darkness Beyond Time in order to preserve the conservation of matter. Of course, this is slightly misleading as the matter of that duplicant can't be sent to the DBT, only the information (which itself can't be destroyed, but it can be created). If the matter of the individual was sent, that would still violate the conservation of matter, so matter must just be rearranged according to the discarding of information.

Chrono Cross states that Schala fell through a temporal vortex thingy along with the Mammon Machine and gets merged with Lavos in the DBT.

That leaves us with a problem. Either the matter of Schala's body was sent to the DBT (thereby essentially destorying matter) or her body was left behind somehow (possibly indicating that that Schala that was sent to the DBT was herself a Time Bastard). However, when Schala sends her Daughter-Clone to the world, that would seem to be the creation of matter (and possibly indicating that there are two different living Schalas in a single dimension's timeline).

One possibly solution to this is that Schala sent Kid out of the DBT essentially at the same Time Error moment that she herself disappeared into the vortex. Matter in, matter out. However, as noted, matter can neither be created nor destroyed so Kid is not only Schala, but her body was essentially made from the matter of Schala's body (can't create or destory matter, but you can rearrange it). However, even in the DBT Time Error continues to follow and before Schala made her clone she helped Serge. This is a sequence of event which means some Time Error had to have passed. Even if only for a few seconds of Time Error, matter had been essentially destoryed.

Have I missed something? Does the DBT count as part of the system of the universe as a whole (and thus, matter in the DBT doesn't really count as being destroyed, but rather gets tallied in with everything else)?

Personally, I am inclined to say that Schala was sent to the DBT whole hog (as it were). This is because that would explain one important detail that was identified as important back in 2004 but hasn't been established in the intervening 4 years: what did Schala bring to the table that allowed Lavos and her combined to form a being capable of devouring time? The answer, then, is matter. Schala brought something that the Lavos in the DBT didn't have (a physical body). With a body, and its position outside of time, it became capable of effecting reality. I'd still maintain it sucked the energy out of time, rather than munching time like a sandwhich, but that is a different topic.

[Lakonthegreat]

Good observation.

And you're right. But another argument can be brought to the table.

Lavos was a LARGE amount of matter. At the same time, the Mammon Machine contained a gigantic amount of Lavos' energy. Well, the Time Devourer is glaringly smaller than Lavos. Not only that, but the Mammon Machine seemed to be almost completely drained of its energy when it sat broken behind Queen Zeal in the Black Omen. Is it not possible that these large amounts of matter and energy that were apparently just lost account for the creation of Schala's daughter-clone, and the innate abilities of the Time Devourer itself? Matter can be changed into energy, and vice-versa, so therefore I believe that a chunk of Lavos' mass must have been formed into energy, which Schala then shaped into matter (Kid) and then used the remaining energy to transport her to the correct time period. The rest of the matter and energy resulted in the creation of the Time Devourer. This then corrects the Time Error, I believe.

[Thought]

Lavos was a LARGE amount of matter. At the same time, the Mammon Machine contained a gigantic amount of Lavos' energy. Well, the Time Devourer is glaringly smaller than Lavos. Not only that, but the Mammon Machine seemed to be almost completely drained of its energy when it sat broken behind Queen Zeal in the Black Omen. Is it not possible that these large amounts of matter and energy that were apparently just lost account for the creation of Schala's daughter-clone, and the innate abilities of the Time Devourer itself? Matter can be changed into energy, and vice-versa, so therefore I believe that a chunk of Lavos' mass must have been formed into energy, which Schala then shaped into matter (Kid) and then used the remaining energy to transport her to the correct time period. The rest of the matter and energy resulted in the creation of the Time Devourer. This then corrects the Time Error, I believe.

Ah, but Lavos should not have been sent to the DBT in the first place (as physical matter). Allow me to offer an example of why this is:

Sir Bob lives in 600 AD on Timeline 1. He will naturally die in 630AD. Tim the Time Traveler lives in 1000 AD but travels back to 600AD and kills Sir Bob. The Sir Bob that would have lived from 600AD to 630AD is sent to the DBT, as the entire timeline 1 in which he lived is discarded due to Tim's actions. Now, from Tim's perspective in 600AD, mere seconds after he killed Bob, in timeline 2, what happens? Does a black portal open and suck Bob's body into the DBT? Not at all, Bob's body just lies there, dead. The matter that comprised Bob's body isn't sent to the DBT, merely the information of that old timeline.

Similarly, after Lavos is defeated, it is more likely that his body just rots away (or the alien equivalent) in the real world while his future is sent to the DBT. No matter or energy is sent to the DBT, just the information. However, to be fair, the Mammon Machine may have been sent to the DBT along with Schala; that is, in a non-standard way. I suppose the question is, then, if Lavos could have just merged with the Mammon Machine to the same effect. If so, and if the Mammon Machine was sent whole-hog to the DBT, then Matter would seem to be the missing element that makes the TD the TD. If not, then Schala being in the DBT with her physical body wouldn't be the key to the TD anywho. Alas.

As for the Time Devourer being smaller than Lavos, that is in part to be expected. It is Lavos evolving into the Time Devourer; why should we expect it to retain the same appearance? Additionally, given that one would presume some energy would have to be applied to the evolution process (as change usually requires an acting force, which is essentially energy), then it might have had to "feed" of its own matter in order to evolve. Very very vaguely it might be like a bear at the start of winter and the end of it; its size changes so it can survive.

But I do think you are onto something. While I like the idea of matter being the key element that Schala brings to the table, that probably isn't it given that the Mammon Machine was there too, probably in physical form as well. Still, that further violates the conservation of mass.

[Lakonthegreat]

Maybe the Chronoverse uses some strange type of ethereal physics? I believe that would explain magic better in this instance. If they used a principle of ethereal physics, then maybe Lavos, the Mammon Machine, and Schala could all be changed into this theoretical ethereal substance that ends up becoming the time devourer? This ethereal physics theory would basically replace the law of the conservation of matter and energy in the DBT. Therefore, all the people sent there by time errors could perhaps shift to this ethereal form, like ghosts, and therefore they can violate the normal physical laws of our world.

This could also explain the ghosts in Chronopolis, maybe.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

That's always been my assumption: physics in our world don't apply in the Chronoverse.  That explains magic, some of the time travel elements, etc.  But then again, I've heard some REALLY compelling arguments in these forums (especially from great minds like Thought and BROJ).

[radicalblues]

Dream species.

We don't know for certain their genesis, but we do know that the Masamune trio are Melchior's dreams embodied.

What about Turnip? he's the dream of the Acacia Dragoon. What's the origin of his materia?

Magic is supposed to generate things out of nothing, while Elements somehow draw it from the Earth.

The little Red Knife became the larger-mass sword Masamune.

After all that, is it really weird to have someone divide part of herself into a clone-daughter? <.<

[Lakonthegreat]

Dream species.

We don't know for certain their genesis, but we do know that the Masamune trio are Melchior's dreams embodied.

What about Turnip? he's the dream of the Acacia Dragoon. What's the origin of his materia?

Magic is supposed to generate things out of nothing, while Elements somehow draw it from the Earth.

The little Red Knife became the larger-mass sword Masamune.

After all that, is it really weird to have someone divide part of herself into a clone-daughter? <.<

Well that's an interesting viewpoint. But nobody, if you notice, ever really mentions the presence of Masa or Mune in their physical forms besides the party.

Turnip is easily explainable as an expermient conducted by Radius. He's a green elemental type which shows a strong connection with plants, so who's to say that he couldn't possibly create a plant demi-human thing in his garden?

So actually, I don't think the dream species thing holds much water. Personally, at least.

[RedStar]

One thing I find interesting is that Schala appeared as a young person as did Crono, Lucca, and Marle.  The young version of the original heroes aren't the real team obviously; they're a manifestation of them somehow.  I don't think it has been agreed upon for sure how they appeared.  Anywho, we know that Schala was a conflicted person after she made her farewell in Chrono Trigger.  Part of her wanted destruction and the other part didn't.  I could so how (not in the real universe of course) Schala could have cloned herself and divided the matter (but apparently not the information) that went along with it.  Schala's the older sister of Janus, which limits how old she can be.  She acts like someone who's about the same age as the main characters maybe so it's reasonable to assume she's in her late teens, maybe even around 20 or so.  When the game ends we see a young woman who looks to be in her late teens as well.

When we finally see her at the end of Chrono Cross she looks about half that age (at least to me).  So, if she were to split herself in half (conserving the laws of matter) then evidently her age also got split in half too.  There is a lot of duality in this game and at first it would make sense for her to also split her already split personality; keep the evil side with Lavos and send the good side to her new clone.  Perhaps she felt that if she did that then when Lavos would be defeated that part of her would be lost, I'm not sure.  Maybe she didn't have the ability to transfer part of herself to her clone, but I think it would be possible for her to do.  Anywho, she doesn't, which means the cloned her wouldn't have her knowledge and all that.  It makes the most sense to create a little child who can learn; a sort of blank slate if you will.

To summarize, she split herself in half, but not her knowledge/information, thus the logical thing would be for the cloned version of her to be a baby since it wouldn't have the knowledge to take care of itself/know where it came from if it were older.  Thus matter is conserved.  It's kind of farfetched but at the same time makes some sense.

[Thought]

That's always been my assumption: physics in our world don't apply in the Chronoverse.  That explains magic, some of the time travel elements, etc.  But then again, I've heard some REALLY compelling arguments in these forums (especially from great minds like Thought and BROJ).

I've been away from this thread too long, sorry (the CC:DBT forum's sucked me in).

Anywho, that is really just the exact point I was getting at;

If Schala violates the Conservation of Matter, then it would seem that the Conservation of Matter wouldn't apply to Chrono Theory Discussion, which in turn means that the primary argument for Time Bastard Theory is bunk; while we might not end up with Time Doubles, we theoretically could (unless someone comes up with another theory for getting rid of them without relying on a real-world physical law that doesn't apply to the Chrono Series). Time Bastard is particularly important for resolving events after CT (such as Robo and Doan would return to a future were their happy selves are shunted to the DBT while their miserable selves still exist), so tossing that out would seem to have far reaching consequences.

[MDenham]

Ah, here's how you solve it, I believe:

The conservation of matter is over the summation of all dimensions.

Since Kid only exists in one dimension at a time (i.e. there is not two of Kid, per se, for different reasons than why there is not two of Serge), the matter is not lost.

However, this causes one interesting side effect:

Kid's native dimension is Home World, and it was her creation that split the dimensions.

Which is a minor contradiction with what we're told over the course of CC (namely, that Serge living/dying is what caused the split), but only insofar as we're basically being fed, once again, misinformation.  Serge living or dying was a side effect of the dimensional split, specifically, "which side of it is Kid present to save him".

This also leads to the possibly disturbing implication that dimensional splits can be (or, more likely, have to be) triggered from the DBT...

Gah, can't bridge tags like I'm used to?

[Lakonthegreat]

Well, if dimensional physics are taken into account, could it be said that the entire CC game is a violation of the law of conservation of matter and energy? I.e. when traveling from home world to another world? On the basic dimensional level, the characters are actually being created in one dimension and being destroyed in another, yes?

[MDenham]

Well, if dimensional physics are taken into account, could it be said that the entire CC game is a violation of the law of conservation of matter and energy? I.e. when traveling from home world to another world? On the basic dimensional level, the characters are actually being created in one dimension and being destroyed in another, yes?

This actually isn't what the problem is (though it did make me realize where the problem lies in my idea, and so I'll fix that momentarily) - the combined matter/energy of all dimensions remains the same in this process.  (As yet another side effect, changing dimensions is therefore required to be instantaneous - that is, there is no moment where you exist in neither dimension [for the purposes of this, the Temporal Vortex counts as its own dimension], and there is no moment where you exist in both.)

The problem is this:

Where did the matter/energy come from to create everyone in the new dimension produced upon a split?

As it turns out, there are three solutions:

1) The split, and thereby the creation of a new dimension (but not its contents), expends a certain amount of negative energy (i.e. the "vacuum state" of non-dimensional "spacetime" [obviously inaccurate as terminology here, but good enough for us for the time being] is technically a false vacuum, as its energy is higher than that of any "true" [that is, dimensional] spacetime).

2) Dimensions are simply "re-purposed" upon such time as they reach a "final" state (note that this may generate problems of its own, as it means that not all dimensions necessarily have the same time axis).

3) There are an infinite number of dimensions.  This thereby renders the whole conservation principle moot (even with a finite amount of matter/energy per dimension!), as we can "steal" infinitesimal amounts of energy from an infinite subset of the dimensions to produce a finite amount of energy for a new dimension.

Of the three options, I think #1 seems to be the most elegant, and #2 is just about the ugliest freakin' hack of a solution there is (well, beyond "A wizard did it" ).

#3...  well, it's definitely possible (though it basically invalidates any hope that the Chrono universe has a workable form of quantum mechanics ) but it's almost as ugly of a hack as #2 is.

[Lakonthegreat]

Yeah I will agree, the negative energy thing does seem like a fallback. But actually it does produce another interesting point in that this may be the way the Chronoverse actually works, thereby giving them a different, but still valid working of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is based on principle of uncertainty anyway, as Quantum implies unknown variables. This "negative energy" could be one of those variables.

Or, a wizard did it. Thereby proving that the Entity is a wizard.

But seriously, there are an infinite number of dimensions. And seeing as how that's true, there is an infinite amount of matter and energy contained among those dimensions. And you're right, it would theoretically be possible to borrow from other dimensions. It's like the math problem 14-9. We all know that the answer is 5, all of the numbers exist, and they work with each other with an action. Well, 9 cannot be subtracted from 4, so 4 must borrow another set of operands from it's neighboring 10. I think this will actually make your #3 viable. I agree with that, provided that an infinite number of dimensions implies an infinite amount of energy.

[MDenham]

But seriously, there are an infinite number of dimensions. And seeing as how that's true, there is an infinite amount of matter and energy contained among those dimensions. And you're right, it would theoretically be possible to borrow from other dimensions. It's like the math problem 14-9. We all know that the answer is 5, all of the numbers exist, and they work with each other with an action. Well, 9 cannot be subtracted from 4, so 4 must borrow another set of operands from it's neighboring 10. I think this will actually make your #3 viable. I agree with that, provided that an infinite number of dimensions implies an infinite amount of energy.

The only real issue with Option 3 is that either it requires that changes that can be noticed (given a sufficiently omniscient observer w/respect to any one universe), or that energy is not quantized (to allow for infinitesimal amounts being removed at a time).

Both of which are somewhat ugly to work with; the former would eventually make it obvious to any sufficiently advanced civilization that there are multiple dimensions (shortly before LAVOS RISES FROM THE EARTH AND EATS THEM ALL HA HA HA HA HA), while the latter makes it extremely hard to make a consistent form of quantum mechanics.

[Lakonthegreat]

But seriously, there are an infinite number of dimensions. And seeing as how that's true, there is an infinite amount of matter and energy contained among those dimensions. And you're right, it would theoretically be possible to borrow from other dimensions. It's like the math problem 14-9. We all know that the answer is 5, all of the numbers exist, and they work with each other with an action. Well, 9 cannot be subtracted from 4, so 4 must borrow another set of operands from it's neighboring 10. I think this will actually make your #3 viable. I agree with that, provided that an infinite number of dimensions implies an infinite amount of energy.

The only real issue with Option 3 is that either it requires that changes that can be noticed (given a sufficiently omniscient observer w/respect to any one universe), or that energy is not quantized (to allow for infinitesimal amounts being removed at a time).

Both of which are somewhat ugly to work with; the former would eventually make it obvious to any sufficiently advanced civilization that there are multiple dimensions (shortly before LAVOS RISES FROM THE EARTH AND EATS THEM ALL HA HA HA HA HA), while the latter makes it extremely hard to make a consistent form of quantum mechanics.

True. This world these guys created has got to have deeper inner workings than what's been included before now. Hopefully all of us physics nerds will get enlightened by the creators one day lol.