Schala a Violation of the Conservation of Matter?

[Lakonthegreat]

Thanks to every one of you, I think my brain is broken.


Seeing as how nobody's even thought of this yet, but maybe this was developer oversight and Schala actually IS a violation of the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy?

So there's like two possible theories on that side.

1. Developer oversight
2. Different quantum mechanics and physics construct in the Chronoverse.

[ZeaLitY]

The current theory of how Lavos and Schala merged is flawed, because the Pocket Dimension theory is essentially dead in the water. All of the literature needs to be revised in the next analysis review. The mystery of how on earth this happened after Lavos was defeated, and why the Time Devourer has a Lavos shell even after Lavos cast off the shell to adopt his evolved form is totally open for discussion. Being totally unexplained, my idea is that Schala was physically sent there. Since Serge and the others can go there physically to battle, I believe it "counts." Lavos, then, survived in some form unknown to the player, perhaps using his Time Warp powers demonstrated in the final battle.

As for creating matter, the Time Devourer has a bunch of nasty Lavos body lying around, and also devoured the Dragon God (how, we don't know, but since it returns to the DBT it may be implied to be physical devouring or absorption. The "lost plotline" about Serge merging with the Time Devourer, on top of what he did to Schala, suggests that it acquires power this way.) Now, the Dragon God took some kind of avatar to appear in the real world; it may have been some kind of concentration of elemental power. For Kid and Harle, one can posit that they were created using leftover Lavos / Dragon God material. Or...no, perhaps we shouldn't invoke Belthasar here. Anyway, given that Lavos basically manipulated DNA for 65 million years and is bred to do so, it's not totally unbelievable that Schala, using those faculties, could produce a basic embryo or something. Harle is another mystery, since we don't know if she arrived as a baby.

[VincentGAU8]

Multiverses in the real world still amounts to just speculation, but I do hope you are correct.. Although we cant still say with certainty that no matter is removed or added, because we cant 'see' what goes on 'inside' a black hole.. All the current propositions are made mainly with theoretical math and physics, with very little physical evidence..

I am not delving into Black Hole Multiverse theory(as I am assuming a common origin; i.e. parallel universes), which says that new universes are created whenever a black hole is formed(i.e. a parent-child Multiverse), rather I am only covering probabilistic parallel universes, which, in relation to the Chronoverse, do exist.

Side Note: Found an article that some may find interesting to read; it involves multiple universes and time travel.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/09/21/sciuni121.xml

I am Jet Li... And I am "The One"... hehe

I was reading on the Black Hole Multiverse Theory, with relation to cosmology, so it appears were at different pages of the multiverse book... As for me, even though there is nothing to *definitely* prove the probability multiverse theory, nothing has yet to disprove it either, so its quite possible.. although now, i hope its not true, at least, not in reality.. I would like a single me in all known cosmos!!  ...

Although, if the probabilistic multiverse theory holds true to the Chronoverse, why could we only 'see' two multiverses (Home and Another)?? If we could access one Multiverse pair (Home to Another), why not others, with respect to the different simultaneous events that occured in each of those other multiverses?? And how could have FATE managed to manipulate those two multiverses??

Thanks to every one of you, I think my brain is broken.


Seeing as how nobody's even thought of this yet, but maybe this was developer oversight and Schala actually IS a violation of the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy?

So there's like two possible theories on that side.

1. Developer oversight
2. Different quantum mechanics and physics construct in the Chronoverse.

The second one's most likely... I mean, there is no such thing as a DBT in real physics you know.. 

[BROJ]

The current theory of how Lavos and Schala merged is flawed, because the Pocket Dimension theory is essentially dead in the water. All of the literature needs to be revised in the next analysis review. The mystery of how on earth this happened after Lavos was defeated, and why the Time Devourer has a Lavos shell even after Lavos cast off the shell to adopt his evolved form is totally open for discussion. Being totally unexplained, my idea is that Schala was physically sent there. Since Serge and the others can go there physically to battle, I believe it "counts." Lavos, then, survived in some form unknown to the player, perhaps using his Time Warp powers demonstrated in the final battle.

As for creating matter, the Time Devourer has a bunch of nasty Lavos body lying around, and also devoured the Dragon God (how, we don't know, but since it returns to the DBT it may be implied to be physical devouring or absorption. The "lost plotline" about Serge merging with the Time Devourer, on top of what he did to Schala, suggests that it acquires power this way.) Now, the Dragon God took some kind of avatar to appear in the real world; it may have been some kind of concentration of elemental power. For Kid and Harle, one can posit that they were created using leftover Lavos / Dragon God material. Or...no, perhaps we shouldn't invoke Belthasar here. Anyway, given that Lavos basically manipulated DNA for 65 million years and is bred to do so, it's not totally unbelievable that Schala, using those faculties, could produce a basic embryo or something. Harle is another mystery, since we don't know if she arrived as a baby.

Perhaps it is possible to 'pull' information from one universe to another... In other words, I'm speculating that when Schala was 'pulled' to the DBT, only her information was taken from one universe to another(the DBT in question, obviously being some matter/energy-friendly, discontiguous 4-D spacetime), leaving her matter/energy behind(which in a chaotic  state would pop out of existence temporarily and pop back in somewhere else). Likewise if that is possible, the inverse should be true as well─it would be possible to introduce information into another universe with the intention of repurposing matter/energy for a new Kid or Harle.

[VincentGAU8]

A kind of ridiculous idea entered my mind:

I think we indeed ought to consider the DBT as a Universe in itself, with its own special spacetime arrangement..
If the Multiverse concept applies to the Chronoverse, then i think it would render the DBT useless. This is because no information/matter would be sent there, and no discarded timelines. The information lost in one Universe would be preserved by the 'creation' of a new one. But why can we see discarded timelines in the DBT? This is probably because that there are only two Universes that were created (Home and Another) while the DBT exists as a Universe created not according to the probabilistic multiverse theory. Other timeline changes failed to result in a Universal/'dimensional' split, and were instead thrown to the DBT (or maybe home and another were not sent there mainly because of Schala's intervention? )..

Or, yet again, am i missing something?

[Katie Skyye]

But if only Schala's information was pulled into the DBT, how could her body be there, as well (unless Lavos/TD created another body?)

Is her body still in 12000 BC? Is she at the bottom of the sea? Somewhere on the Black Omen?

Basically, if Schala's matter was NOT transferred to the DBT, then where is it?

[BROJ]

But if only Schala's information was pulled into the DBT, how could her body be there, as well (unless Lavos/TD created another body?)

The act of 'pulling' foreign information would cause a new dimension to be created, where Scala doesn't exist, but her matter energy does. The dissociated dimension would be pulled, with Scala, to the DBT(composing of every 'replaced' parallel dimension), which, in itself, is nothing more than an archive, at any rate; so whether matter/energy is ethereal or corporeal in Lavos' dimension(DBT) is a moot point─there is obviously existence that can be observed and changed.

Is her body still in 12000 BC? Is she at the bottom of the sea? Somewhere on the Black Omen?

Naturally her matter/energy is still in 12000BC, but the information is gone, thus, Schala's body(structure; i.e. information) is no longer present in the given dimension.

Basically, if Schala's matter was NOT transferred to the DBT, then where is it?

Somewhere else in the given dimension; given the circumstances(i.e. Quantum Mechanics), one could not tell.

[Thought]

Or, yet again, am i missing something?

Yes, but it might just be a very minor consideration: Dragonopolis. It was pulled from neither Home World nor Another World (as indeed that distinction didn't exist at the "time" that the city was pulled into the Keystone Dimension). However, it might be that Dragonopolis was not so much pulled from an alternate dimension but rather a discarded timeline. Unfortunately, much work needs to be done on the distinctions between timelines and dimensions.

I just spent the last week pondering that very issue and the best I came up with was a question, really: Is time elastic or brittle?

[VincentGAU8]

Or, yet again, am i missing something?

Yes, but it might just be a very minor consideration: Dragonopolis. It was pulled from neither Home World nor Another World (as indeed that distinction didn't exist at the "time" that the city was pulled into the Keystone Dimension). However, it might be that Dragonopolis was not so much pulled from an alternate dimension but rather a discarded timeline. Unfortunately, much work needs to be done on the distinctions between timelines and dimensions.

I just spent the last week pondering that very issue and the best I came up with was a question, really: Is time elastic or brittle?

Terra Tower came not from another universe/alternate reality, but rather a discarded timeline?
I somehow can't grasp that.. Would you mind to elaborate?

And we really need to distinguish timelines/universes/alternate realities (Home world/Another world/ Dragonians)
from dimensions according to definition (3D/4D/5D and such)...

Is time elastic or brittle? Probably elastic, but can be torn apart by powerful forces (consider the black hole again).. I'm unsure of this though..

[Thought]

Well it was said that Dragonopolis was pulled from an alternate dimension, yet it also seems that Another World should, by all rights, be itself a discarded timeline. Another world is the timeline that existed before Kid traveled back in time to save Serge. When she did so, Home World should have become the primary timeline and Another World should have been discarded (curiously, where Crono traveled time to save the future, Kid's travels doomed that future). Instead, Another World became a dimension. Thus, Dragonopolis might likewise be seen as both an alternate dimension (like Another World) and a timeline that should be discarded (also like Another World). Or, I suppose, Dragonopolis might have actually been pulled from the DBT itself (if so, that might help to explain why the Time Devourer had access to the Dragon God to absorb in the first place; it was already there, but then it was pulled back out of the DBT, much in the same way as the dead sea).

There is no evidence, mind you, that the Dragonian Dimension has any relationship to a discarded timeline, but we also don't really know the distinction between dimensions and timelines either.

As for time, allow me to elaborate my question a little more.

If time is elastic, then when a force is applied it should return to its original shape. Or in other words, if time is elastic, then anytime a time traveler makes a change to history, time would behave in a manner as to return to its original shape. If time is elastic, then generally time would not be discarded when a change was made (at best we might say a small section of it was altered or discarded, but the whole remains intact).

If time is brittle, however, then when a force is applied to it, time shatters and is entirely discarded, being replaced by a new timeline.

To note, Time Bastard Theory (and to a lesser extent, Time Traveler Immunity) assume that time is brittle, not elastic. Unfortunately, this is the realm of pure theory; nothing in the games give us a good idea of what time itself is like or how it, as a 4 dimensional object, responds to external forces. It is like we are A. Square, from Flatland, trying to comprehend Spaceland.

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect... but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly.... timey-wimey.... stuff.

[VincentGAU8]

Oops, sorry.. was thinking about time in a physical/cosmological sense, i.e. Space and Time distorted by
massive objects, like a black hole, not in from a Time Traveler's perspective. But yeah, there ain't much evidence in game to infer anything definitive...

Instead, Another World became a dimension.

Do you mean new dimension of an already previously existent Universe? A new Universe/alternate reality would be, i think more appropriate..

Although, i do get your point on the Dragonian Dimension/Timeline...
It would seem that TD had easy access to something that he was supposed to destroy in another timeline.. But if that timleline (Dragonian) was from the DBT, then what happened in the Time Crash?  Did Lavos/TD deliberately choose that city to counter-act Chronopolis? Why not other objects from other discarded timelines in the DBT? What would be his motive for doing so?

But then again, there isn't much evidence to answer such questions...

[Thought]

Instead, Another World became a dimension.

Do you mean new dimension of an already previously existent Universe? A new Universe/alternate reality would be, i think more appropriate..

... yes?

Are you talking dimension as it is used in popular culture (such as "The being from Dimension X!") or are you talking dimension as in physics?

I'd generally say that it is the same universe, different reality. To illustrate what I mean: if we move a point along a 1 dimensional axis, we have a line. If we move a line along a 2 dimensional access, we have a square. If we move a square along a 3 dimensional axis, we have a cube. I would propose that if we move a cube along a 4 dimensional axis, we have "time." That is, from our perspective, time is the result of our movement through the 4th dimension but in which we can only see three dimensions. Essentially, time is like a movie (static images that get flipped rapidly, which creates the illussion of movement). So, then, we might call Home World a single 4 dimensional object, but just as two cubes might exist, two 4 dimensional objects might exist. They are still in the same universe (just as two cubes would be in the same universe), but if they don't intersect on a 3rd dimensional level, we'd never be aware of it. Mind you, the above is just a proposal, not actual science.

Although, i do get your point on the Dragonian Dimension/Timeline...
It would seem that TD had easy access to something that he was supposed to destroy in another timeline.. But if that timleline (Dragonian) was from the DBT, then what happened in the Time Crash?  Did Lavos/TD deliberately choose that city to counter-act Chronopolis? Why not other objects from other discarded timelines in the DBT? What would be his motive for doing so?

But it is said that the Entity was the one who pulled Dragonopolis to counteract Chronopolis, not Lavos/TD. Apparently the Entity reasoning skills aren't the best around: "Gee, Lavos pulled a city from the future back in time in order to change the future so that it might save itself. I have to stop that! I know, I'll change the past of the future EVEN MORE! Its so crazy, it just might work!"

Of course... this implies that the Entity wasn't aware of the TD, or that it might have corrupted Dragonopolis itself. Or that Belthasar was lying (again).

[VincentGAU8]

Ok, i was thinking of dimensions in physics... And i now understand your proposition on Home and Another being
different dimensions in a similar Universe (i read your posts on the "Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?" thread)..
If I were to follow that, then the DBT is not a tesseract, Home and Another would already be one, wouldn't it?? 

(But if they were similar dimensions in a single Universe, then doesn't it run counter 'Broj's probabilistic multiverse applies to Chronoverse propositions'??)

But it is said that the Entity was the one who pulled Dragonopolis to counteract Chronopolis, not Lavos/TD. Apparently the Entity reasoning skills aren't the best around: "Gee, Lavos pulled a city from the future back in time in order to change the future so that it might save itself. I have to stop that! I know, I'll change the past of the future EVEN MORE! Its so crazy, it just might work!"

Of course... this implies that the Entity wasn't aware of the TD, or that it might have corrupted Dragonopolis itself. Or that Belthasar was lying (again).

Hehe.. At least the Entity had a pretty good sense of humor..
Although, if the Dragonian dimension came from the DBT, then did the Entity have knowledge of the DBT?

[Thought]

(But if they were similar dimensions in a single Universe, then doesn't it run counter 'Broj's probabilistic multiverse applies to Chronoverse propositions'??)

Sort of. BROJ would need to weigh in for us to know for sure (I am not sure I understand what I mean half the time, let alone that I understand what he means), but I think it largely depends on how we are defining "universe." If we define it as the totality of all know or supposed existance (a fairly common definition), then the multiverse would actually be part of the universe (which is strange because then it would go universe<multiverse<universe, but as far as I can tell, that would still be accurate). Or we could define a universe as only what is knowable in this instance of it. That is, only the conglomoration of space and matter that resulted from the Big Bang as we understand it.

But it is said that the Entity was the one who pulled Dragonopolis to counteract Chronopolis, not Lavos/TD. Apparently the Entity reasoning skills aren't the best around: "Gee, Lavos pulled a city from the future back in time in order to change the future so that it might save itself. I have to stop that! I know, I'll change the past of the future EVEN MORE! Its so crazy, it just might work!"

Of course... this implies that the Entity wasn't aware of the TD, or that it might have corrupted Dragonopolis itself. Or that Belthasar was lying (again).

Hehe.. At least the Entity had a pretty good sense of humor..
Although, if the Dragonian dimension came from the DBT, then did the Entity have knowledge of the DBT?

I'd say the entity has some knowledge of it, though to what extent I can't say. I am fairly sure it knows that the post CT timeline was different than the pre CT timeline, so it knows that the old timeline is no longer around, but if its knowledge goes beyond that I couldn't guess.

[VincentGAU8]

Now I have a question.. What would have applied to the Chronoverse?
Broj's probabilistic multiverse (Everett's many-worlds hypothesis), that would have meant that there are more than two alternate realities in the Chronoverse other than home and another, or thought's single universe (spacetime created by the big bang) although with a different dimensional arrangement..??

(Sorry to pit you two against each other again)