The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame

[Thought]

In reading Faust's thread concerting Lavos, the FF, and Human Evolution I realized that there are some assumptions about the Frozen Flame and Lavos' relationship to it that have basically been accepted without question for several years but which may or may not be true. As such I have tried to question some of these assumption in order to dig to the actual truth, rather than the flawed suppositions that Chrono Theory may be working under. In formulating the hypotheses, I read over the forums many threads on the matter, looked over the game script, and searched through interview transcripts. I have tried to be as comprehensive as possible, but that is a difficult task with so much data to absorb and analyze.

Specifically, I would like to argue the following points:

1) The Frozen Flame may not have "broken off" Lavos upon its impact with Earth but rather it may of separated from the whole at a much latter date.
2) Lavos’ relationship to the Frozen Flame is much closer and more significant than just the relationship of the whole to a splinter.
3) The Frozen Flame was assuredly never part of the Mammon Machine.

Point 1 is important as it would clarify Lavos' role in the rise and fall of Zeal,  human evolution, and possibly the existence of Mystics, Demi-Humans, and other slightly dubious branches of Human Evolution.

Point 2 is important as it changes our very view of what the Frozen Flame is, how Serge interacts with it, and indeed re-conceptualizes the FF's role in Chrono Cross and its relation to the Time Devourer.

Point 3 is important for those who argue for Schala being the Arbiter of the Mammon Machine (or a previous Arbiter of the Frozen Flame in general).

When did the Frozen Flame break off from Lavos?

To start off with, it may be surprising for some to discover that there is only one line in the entire Chrono Cross script that identifies the Frozen Flame's origin:

   The Frozen Flame is a
   splinter from the extra-
   terrestrial being Lavos.

If I am placing the quote properly (I discovered this from the script, not from playing the game, so establishing proper context can be tricky), Belthasar tells us this after the battle on Terra Tower. Three things to note here: Belthasar does not specify when the FF splintered from Lavos, he does not specify where the FF splintered off from, and he does not specify what the nature of that splinter is.

It is generally assumed the Frozen Flame splintered from Lavos either when it approached earth or when it landed. Yes from this a few simple questions arise: Why is this assumed? Where is the actual supporting evidence?

Consider this thread from Compendium Past: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,1929.0.html. That thread asked when the FF splintered and other forum goers responded with statements that the date was the same as its crash to earth yet they failed, one and all, to provide proof to backup those statements.

So then, what is the evidence that supports the supposition that the FF broke off from Lavos upon impact? Deduction, mostly. Faust quoted this in his thread, but allow me to do the same for the sake of ease:

   However, the unforeseen
   coming of the mighty one from
   the heavens suddenly smashed
   their kingdom to pieces.

   That one was known as '"Lavos!"'
   The great crimson flame......
   
   Wielding absolute power,
   Lavos buried the dinosaurs -
   the kings of the land -
   in the space of a night.

   However, the timid '"apes"'
   who had lived hidden in
   the forests...
   
   ...came into contact with
   the crimsom flame
   that fell from the sky,
   and evolved into '"humans."'

Humans were evolved by the "Crimson Flame," which is taken to be the Frozen Flame. Zeality suggested in Faust's thread that this is just a bit of a poetic license, as coming in contact with the Frozen Flame is the same as coming into contact with Lavos and the descriptor “crimson flame” could apply to the FF. That is certainly a valid interpretation, but there is an equal possibility that “crimson flame” has nothing to do with the Frozen Flame. Lavos’ very name means “big fire” and he appeared as a red star. It is hardly a large leap to assume that “crimson flame” was meant only as a descriptor of Lavos. Consider Azala’s words regarding Lavos:

   Red star...
   Fall!!!!!
   Stain the earth...RED!

   Soon, stones of fire will rain down.
   Flames shall scorch the land.

The very first time we are made aware how and when Lavos’ presence on earth originated, Lavos is identified by the Dragonian ancestor as red fire.

Other quotes that seem to imply some specific chronological placement of the Frozen Flame are as follows:

   The DNA records are
   poems and music...
   Adenine and Thymine...
   Guanine and Cytosine...
   Rythym and Melody...
   Perhaps the DNA of the ones
   who make contact with the
   Flame is recomposed by the
   sound they generate within?

This seems to place a "Flame" at the point in time when DNA is recomposed. Given that it is implicated that human evolution was effected by extra-terrestreal powers, this could be taken as evidence that the “Flame” was what caused the changes humans underwent. However, to note, this does not need to be a statement limited to human evolution; rather, presumably the Flame’s abilities to “recompose” DNA continues. Therefore, all this statement indicates is that the Chronopolis scientists were aware that the Flame could “recompose DNA,” not that it did recompose proto-human DNA into that which resulted in Humanity.

Additionally, to note, this doesn’t even link the Frozen Flame to evolution; just to dramatic changes in DNA. Evolution happens over numerous generations, as far as we understand it, but the Flame is causing significant changes within a short period of time (it recomposes the DNA of the one who comes in contact with it, implying significant changes within the individual, not the species).

   This is the essence of what
   descended from the heavens
   in the prehistoric age.
   The living crimson stone...
   the Frozen Flame!

On a glance this might seem to indicate that the FF originated in the prehistoric age, but one will note that the sentences are divided. The quote gives us two statements that relate to a single object (the Frozen Flame). It only establishes that the entity of which the FF is the essence of descended in the prehistoric age. To offer an analogy, one might say that the United States’ constitution is the essence of the Founding Fathers; however, that does not imply that the Constitution was born when they were born. Everyone agrees Lavos fell then, but the question is if the FF broke off at that point. The Flames's creation and the Fall of Lavos are not tied by this quote.

   In the eyes of the Dragons,
   we humans are the foes...
   
   A brain that has developed abnormally
   to 3 times the original size in the
   span of 3 million years...

   We humans have evolved at an
   enormous rate because of our
   contact with Lavos's flame...

   In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring...

This nicely establishes a rough estimate for when Lavos' power effected human evolution (at the very least 3 mil years before the Kingdom of Zeal, though the 3 mil is a span of time, not a specific date, so another possibility is that humans evolved between 65,000,000 BC and 62,000,000 BC), and that human evolution was effected by Lavos's flame.

One might note that “Lavos’s flame” is not definitely a kenning for the Frozen Flame. Though the FF is certainly connected to Lavos, as it splintered off from him, is does not share such a strong connection to “Lavos’s Flame.” This is the only time that the possessive is applied to the word "flame,” and for that very reason is unusual and should catch our attention. The FF came from Lavos, but can we properly say it is in Lavos' possession, or that it is even rightfully Lavos'? In what way would the Frozen Flame be the only (or even best) interpretation of “Lavos’s Flame”?

One might also note that "flame" is not capitalized. While this is very shaky ground, considering it is relying on grammar (which may or may not have been properly translated), grammatically speaking, "Lavos's flame" cannot be referring to a specific object of that name. If it was, then the word "flame" would have been capitalized. While as mentioned, an argument from grammar is dubious, elsewhere this rule of grammar is applied appropriately:

   Perhaps even FATE itself
   dreamed of using the Flame
   to some day reincarnate
   itself into a new species.
   It is quite sad, really...
   It's like when you gaze
   into the Flame, the Flame
   gazes back into you.

We might fall back on Zeality's suggestion in Faust’s thread that this sort of language is poetic, yet the exact same explanation can be used to suggest that "Lavos' flame" is not the same as the Frozen Flame. Poetic license opens the door to interpretation. The dictionary definition of "flame" would allow it to be a general reference to Lavos' power (emphasis added):

flame
–noun
1. burning gas or vapor, as from wood or coal, that is undergoing combustion; a portion of ignited gas or vapor.
2. Often, flames. the state or condition of blazing combustion: to burst into flames.
3. any flamelike condition; glow; inflamed condition. 
4. brilliant light; scintillating luster. 
5. bright coloring; a streak or patch of color. 
6. flame color. 
7. intense ardor, zeal, or passion. 
8. Informal. an object of one's passionate love; sweetheart: He's taking out his new flame tonight. 
9. Computer Slang. an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message, as an e-mail or newsgroup post. 
–verb (used without object)
10. to burn with a flame or flames; burst into flames; blaze. 
11. to glow like flame; shine brilliantly; flash. 
12. to burn or burst forth with strong emotion; break into open anger, indignation, etc. 
13. Computer Slang. to send an angry, critical, or disparaging electronic message.

One could take "Lavos's flame" to just be a synonym for the Frozen Flame, but it could also be a poetic phrase that is synonymous with Lavos's "power." Indeed, from this statement alone one could take “Lavos’s flame” to be a particular love interest (though such an interpretation wouldn’t fit with the rest of the game).

Additionally, Luccia’s makes a comment regarding the Frozen Flame that could only apply to Lavos the whole:

   Ack!
   Vot power...
   Dis power is not somet'ing
   man should possess.
   yes...it is just as I t'ought.
   Several civilizations have
   already been destroyed
   because of dis immense power...
   As you said, my friend...
   Science should only be used
   for the betterhood of mankind,
   no!?

We see unequivocally that the Frozen Flame was responsible for the fall of one civilization: that of the Dragonians in Home/Another World. This is hardly “several civilizations,” though we might be able to include the fall of Zeal in this (but that requires that we assume Zeal had the Frozen Flame, which usually gets interpreted as it being part of the Mammon Machine. That I argue later was certainly not the case). However, Lavos the whole unequivocally destroyed the civilizations of the Reptites, Zeal, and the modern world. If we can attribute the FF’s destruction to him, that would add a fourth (but such isn’t really necessary).

Since the Frozen Flame cannot have been responsible for the fall of “several” civilizations, we must assume that Luccia is referencing the power of the Flame as something separate and apart from the Flame. The Flame’s power is Lavos’ power; therefore “Lavos’s flame” could quite easily refer to Lavos’ power without including the Frozen Flame.

And that is it. The above quotes are all the evidence I was able to find concerning when the Frozen Flame might have broken off from Lavos. It does, admittedly, make sense to assume that the FF broke off from Lavos around when it landed on earth – the energy released from that large of an object traveling at that speed hitting a planet would be tremendous and it would allow for the Frozen Flame to be present for Human evolution – but that is not the only possibility that makes sense.

For human evolution, there are traces in Chrono Trigger that Lavos may have influenced the evolution of life on earth yet mention of the Frozen Flame is totally absent. From this we can safely conclude that the possibility of Lavos effecting human evolution can exist quite nicely without the need to imagine some powerful artifact that splinted off from Lavos ages ago facilitated the entire process.

One might ask, then, if the Frozen Flame didn't break off when Lavos descended to earth, when DID it break off? I am fairly confident most people can think of some other time in Lavos' lifetime that extreme forces were applied to it.

Its impact with earth certainly must have applied a lot of force, but there was one other event that applied a lot of force as well; indeed, there is an event that applied so much force that it killed Lavos. Crono and Co may have been the ones to splinter off the Frozen Flame. Consider that they ripped off the "head" of Lavos' shell, they shattered its 2nd form, and they smashed the core and bits. Consider that the Frozen Flame isn't mentioned in Chrono Trigger but Lavos’ involvement with evolution was. Consider also that there is no evidence that firmly links the Frozen Flame to the Lavos Timeline (that is, we do not know if the Frozen Flame existed before the events of Chrono Trigger). Its existence is only certain in the Keystone Timeline 1 (after the events of Chrono Trigger). We could assume it existed in the Lavos Timeline and just happened to not be mention, but there is no evidence that requires such an assumption.

If we do not assume that the Frozen Flame existed in the Lavos Timeline, then we might conclude that the FF does not exist when Lavos lives but it does when Lavos is dead. This, however, takes lack of mention of the FF in CT as evidence of it not existing then. Yet, such would make perfect sense if Crono and Co were the ones to cause the Frozen Flame to splinter off of Lavos’s body (presumably during the Final Battle).

Such a conclusion is still an assumption, but the difference between that assumption and the assumption that the Flame broke off from Lavos upon its entry into the atmosphere or its impact with the earth is that the Crono & Co explanation is simpler; it doesn't suppose that the Frozen Flame broke off in CT (where we never see or hear of it), it doesn't suppose that the FF itself influenced human evolution (which requires it to have been found before the rise of Zeal but which is never mentioned there), and it doesn't suppose that rumors and legends of the FF already existed in 1000AD (Lavos Timeline) but that Crono and Co just didn’t happen to hear of any of them.

Lavos’ relation to the Frozen Flame

As I said, there were three things interesting about that first quote from Belthasar. He didn't say when the FF split off, and he didn't say where it split off from. Given the FF's spiky nature it seems natural to assume it was the shell but it could have also been a shard of the 2nd form's armory appearance or bones/shards from the core/bits. Or it might be from some other part of Lavos that we never experienced. Merely being a spiky piece doesn’t give us a definite location on the puzzle of Lavos’ body.

We ought to consider one curious element regarding the Frozen Flame; it twists and moves. This is seen on top of Terra Tower. Kid and the others comment on that being the FF's true form. Notably, it expands sort of like an armadillo or a armadillidiidae and it seems to have a weird design in the center, looking almost like an eye. We never saw any part of Lavos’ shell behave in that manner (or indeed, any part of Lavos at all), so it is nearly impossible to determine where this splinter actually came from. If we assume the FF broke off on impact, then it originating from the shell makes sense. But as we have no good reason to assume that is when the separation of whole and splinter occured, the FF might have also broken off from any part of Lavos; both external and internal.

I also commented that Belthasar doesn't really tell us much about the nature of the splinter. For most substances this wouldn't really matter; a splinter of wood is still a splinter of wood, same with bone. But if I might draw an analogy from Diablo and Diablo II, a splinter of a soulstone can be a very important thing, actually greater than the whole, depending on what that splinter contains. This isn't to say that the Frozen Flame is like soulstone, just to illustrate that one can imagine that a splinter of something might have a very important nature.

With such a possibility in mind, consider the following quote:

   This is the essence of what
   descended from the heavens
   in the prehistoric age.
   The living crimson stone...
   the Frozen Flame!

Seems fairly obvious that the Frozen Flame is the essence of Lavos; that theme is fairly central to the FF's power, the TD, and so forth. However, this brings up an interesting concept. Crono and Co defeated Lavos, we are all agreed on that. That would seem, then, that somewhere in time and space the remnants of Lavos should still exist (Lavos' future, not his body, was what was sent to the DBT). If the Frozen Flame is just a standard splinter of Lavos' body, then presumably one should be able to go to his corpse and break off another chunk. Would that chunk then be the same as the Frozen Flame? Would it also be "the essence of what descended from the heavens"?

If the power of the Frozen Flame could be duplicated so easily, why didn't Fate expend its efforts on finding Lavos' corpse instead of wasting its resources on trying to unlock the splinter it had?

Given that Lavos' body is utterly ignored, I would conclude that the Frozen Flame is unique. It is a splinter of Lavos, yes, but it isn't just any splinter. It has power that the remains of Lavos's body just does not have, possibly resulting from it being separated from the whole before the whole was killed or perhaps from where on Lavos it was broken off from. Again, to draw an analogy, the human head could be considered a “splinter” of the human as a whole, yet if it could maintain a semblance of life then that splinter would have significantly different powers than a foot or arm that was broken off of the whole. The Frozen Flame, then, might not just be any splinter but the splinter, the part of Lavos that defines the whole.

While the Frozen Flame isn't the whole of Lavos, it is Lavos in a particular sense. Returning to Zeality's comment in Faust's thread (link is way back at the top), coming in contact with the Frozen Flame is essentially the same as coming in contact with Lavos. Given that the Frozen Flame is the essence of Lavos, that "essen-tially" is quite accurate. If coming into contact with the rest of Lavos’ dead body doesn’t equate contact with Lavos, then the Frozen Flame’s connection is quite significant. One might almost say that, as it holds part of Lavos’ consciousness (as the Frozen Flame is capable of acting and reaction, it must have a semblance of a mind), it is Lavos. Lavos is dead by the time Chrono Cross rolls around; its future is in the DBT becoming the Time Devourer, but meanwhile in the real world the Frozen Flame is Lavos (specifically, a significant degree of Lavos’ “mind” and power). To borrow from Lovecraft, "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."

Consider the following quote:

   In an old poem of El Nido there is
   a phrase that refers to the evil
   sealed away by the 6 Dragons.
   This phrase follows after it:
   '"...the evil flame that sought to
   engulf the world..."'

Again, I took these from the script so my context may be off, but I believe these were Steena's responses to when you ask her about the Frozen Flame. Though she doesn't know better, she seems to be connecting the Frozen Flame with "the evil flame that sought to engulf the world." The FF as an object didn't do that, but Lavos did. Therefore, Steena (and through her old lore) seems to be referring to the Frozen Flame and Lavos interchangeably. If I might make an analogy from Christian beliefs, Lavos is to the Frozen Flame as God is to Jesus. The Frozen Flame and Lavos are homoousios (the same essence) not homoiousios (similar essence).

Also consider what some of the myths are surrounding the Frozen Flame:

   It was then that Lynx
   approached General Viper.
   He spoke of the legendary
   treasure, the Frozen Flame,
   which is able to heal all
   illnesses and fulfill any dreams.

These abilities seem to match perfectly with the power that the Mammon Machine granted to Zeal:

   The power of Lavos can make hopes
   and dreams come true...

   If the Mammon Machine is moved to
   the Ocean Palace, we can extract even
   more energy from Lavos.
   
   The ultimate dream of eternal youth
   and life, is now possible!

Of course, if the Frozen Flame represents Lavos' power, it makes sense that it would be able to do similar things.

Consider also:

   Finally, I have the key.
   The key to the gate of Fate!
   The time has finally come for
   the Frozen Flame to awaken!!!

In order to be awake, the Frozen Flame has to be able to be asleep, which itself implies some degree of life (or life-like behavior). Consider also that the Frozen Flame talks to Wazuki and Miguel in Chronopolis (as per an Ultimania interview); it seems that the Flame has a degree of sentience. The question then is; who's mind is speaking? It might be the Time Devourer, but I have been unable to find any evidence that supports the claim that the Time Devourer was able to communicate through the Frozen Flame, or visa versa. It might be its own consciousness. As it came from Lavos, that consciousness would presumably be part of Lavos’ own consciousness (a splinter of it at least, if not the whole).

Consider also this quote:

   This guy thinks that the
   '"Frozen Flame"' is some
   kind of jewel or something.
   I'd say things aren't that easy.
   It's probably a monster
   of some sort.
   Once you gaze at it,
   BOOM! You're well-done, like
   a steak on a barbecue.

Curiously, the Frozen Flame is both a jewel it seems and a monster (or at least the remains of a monster). In its current state, it is a jewel of power, but it is also a key element of the most destructive monster in the world.

All of this is just to say that Lavos and the Frozen Flame are almost the same thing. If it walks like a duck and quacks like and acts like a duck, then there is a good chance that it is a duck. Or, in this case, if is power is Lavos’ and its mind is Lavos’ and touching it is the same as touching Lavos, then there is a good chance that it is Lavos.

This helps us understand why the Frozen Flame is so significant to the story and why Serge was chosen as Arbiter; the FF was trying to draw itself to the Time Devourer, but that is the same as Lavos drawing itself to itself (sort of like the One Ring returning to Sauron). The Time Devourer could be incredibly powerful without the Frozen Flame, but it needed the Flame to be truly complete; to join its future and its past into one entity at the present. We see this theme reflected in the Sea of Eden/Dead Sea (emphasis added):

   I hate to disappoint you,
   but the Frozen Flame
   is not here.
   That fire lies hidden
   in the Sea of Eden,
   the place where past
   and future collide...

This is also reflected in the time crash:

   Chronopolis was hurled ten
   thousand years back in time.

The future was sent to the past and we interact with it in the present only.

Was the Frozen Flame part of the Mammon Machine?

Resulting from Radical Dreamers, it is sometimes thought that the Frozen Flame could have been part of the Mammon Machine. This idea seems to be rather central to what might be termed “Arbiter Theory.” To my understanding, the theory essentially claims that Serge is important because he is the arbiter of the Frozen Flame. The Time Devourer began to develop with the inclusion of Schala, who was an earlier arbiter of the Frozen Flame, and it needs Serge to complete its transformation.

One can find some discussion of Schala-as-an-arbiter in the following threads and articles:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5347.0.html
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ocean_Palace_Incident_%28Flame_Theory%29.html
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3958.75.html
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,1958.60.html

Many people, from posters who disappeared after a few days to the likes of Greylensman, have commented on the Frozen Flame being part of the Mammon Machine (which is supposedly how Schala became an arbiter of the Flame), either for or against.

However, given Chrono Cross, it is actually quite easy to prove to a reasonable degree that the Frozen Flame was not part of the Mammon Machine (which then makes it impossible to guess when, if ever, Schala might have come into contact with the Flame).

Consider this quote:

   The true beginning was during
   the destruction of the ancient
   Kingdom of Zeal!
   As the palace collapsed around
   her, Princess Schala was sucked
   into a dimensional vortex along
   with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
   Schala and Lavos became unified
   into one even more powerful
   entity that would evolve into
   the Devourer of Time.

If the Frozen Flame was part of the Mammon Machine, it was removed from the timeline along with Schala at the Ocean Palace incident (12,000 BC). Yet Chronopolis, existing in 2300/2400 AD, had the Frozen Flame, which means the Flame could not have been removed from the timeline in 12,000 BC. If it could not have been removed in 12,000 BC, then it could not have been part of the Mammon Machine which is specifically stated as having been removed.

To be fair, while I believe such is very strong evidence, it isn’t indisputable. There are a variety of reasons why the FF might have been in the Mammon Machine but still present in 2300 AD, but each of these are rather unlikely.

1. There might be more than one Frozen Flame.
2. The Mammon Machine was destroyed before it was sent to the DBT; therefore, the Frozen Flame might have fallen out and been left behind.
3. The quote states that Schala and the Mammon Machine were thrown into a dimensional vortex, but it then doesn’t mention the MM again, so it is possible that only Schala was sent to the DBT and the MM was shunted somewhere else where the Frozen Flame was then rediscovered.

However, as noted, all of these are unlikely explanations and require a good deal of additional assumptions.

What this means on a larger scale is that we have no reason to assume that the Frozen Flame was ever even in Zeal.

Conclusion

While you may disagree with some parts (or all) of this analysis, I do hope that you will take away from it the possibility that the Frozen Flame did not break off from Lavos in 65000000 BC, the possibility that Lavos and the Frozen Flame are very nearly the exact same thing, and that Schala almost definitely did not come in contact with the frozen flame.

[FaustWolf]

A highly fascinating analysis, Thought!

Regarding the Dragonian quote about human evolution and the "crimson flame from the sky," Chrono'99 observed just today in my thread that the Dragonians may have serious misunderstandings of the human-dominant timeline. He also noted that the Frozen Flame as depicted on the wall of Terra Tower (or wherever that was seen) is a misrepresentation of the Flame as we later see it on Terra Tower "in person," so to speak. However, there's at least one other instance in which art design conflicts in Chrono Cross (Pierre's Hero Medal), and I find it particularly fascinating that the Frozen Flame as presented in the pertinent mural looks just a bit reminiscent of the Flame as presented in Radical Dreamers.

My own fanon theory always favored the Frozen Flame's breaking off Lavos during its destruction by Crono & Co., and that "Lavos' Emanations" were captured by the Mammon Machine in Zeal. I.e., the Mammon Machine was made specifically to interact with the Frozen Flame but that the Frozen Flame was still incorporated as part of Lavos at the time.

The one bit of canon evidence that has always defeated my own favored theory regarding the Frozen Flame is the fact that Lavos burrowed underground shortly after striking the planet in 65,000,000 BC. There's room for Lavos to have come out of his cubby-hole between then and whatever point Chrono Cross specifies as the turn in human evolution, but nothing found in any of the games would even hint at supporting that possibility. The Ocean Palace had to be built precisely because Lavos assumedly remained far underground since striking the planet -- I guess some dimensional distortion was required to bring it into the OP without serious drilling? I guess that's another matter entirely though.

Where I'm going with this is, if humanity evolved into what would later become the Zealians out of some contact with Lavos, then the Frozen Flame would have to have split off at some point prior to Lavos' destruction. Either that, or some Laruban tribesmen went to check out Lavos after seeing the uber impact fireball, said "oooh, pretty!" and touched it, then fled as it began moving and burrowing underground. This would fulfill the barest requirements of canon evidence while leaving the Frozen Flame incorporated within Lavos somewhere. However, the "3 million year" evolution timeline may counter even this. If the "3 million year" evolution occurred between 65,000,000BC and 62,000,000BC then we'd still be in the clear, but if it occurred between 3,012,000BC and 12,000BC, then the Frozen Flame breaking off is the only remaining explanation as far as I can tell.

There's some more talk of the Frozen Flame's origin in the Radical Dreamers script that you may find of interest if you haven't looked at that in-depth yet, Thought. Though it's another situation in which the game script is put in ROM order and not in storyline order, so it gets confusing at times.

EDIT: It is also highly fascinating that the Time Devourer's overarching goal is to retrieve the Frozen Flame. Could be that Lavos decided it really didn't need its Flame in the Chrono Trigger timeline and wanted it only after being defeated. Or, could mean that Lavos wanted its Flame precisely because it had been separated from it by Crono & Co, going along with your suggestion Thought. Not that the Time Devourer was seeking to get the Flame back, but rather that the Flame, bearing Lavos' consciousness, wanted to reacquire its body. I always wondered if Lavos incorporated Schala because it needed a substitute power source while it awaited the Flame's return, and fed off her soul and/or psychic energies (or wherever Magic comes from). Ahhh, sweet, sweet fanon...

[Thought]

I know you've got a lot on your plate, with breaking Chrono code and getting a fan game going (which is moving incredibly fast right now) and all, so thanks for taking the time out to read this.

Where I'm going with this is, if humanity evolved into what would later become the Zealians out of some contact with Lavos, then the Frozen Flame would have to have split off at some point prior to Lavos' destruction.

That is only true if we assume two things; the Frozen Flame is what caused human evolution and contact with Lavos means getting physical.

Let me address the second assumption first: What, exactly, is "contact"? Surely touching the Frozen Flame would count as contacting it, but is that all? Consider the flashback in CC to when Wazuki and Miguel first enter Chronopolis with Serge. The Frozen Flame isn't in the lobby, but it is able to communicate with them nonetheless. To note, it didn't just communicate, it interacted on a complex level. It knew that Serge was a child and that he was wounded. It knew that others were with him and capable of bringing him.

Consider next the Frozen Flames' reaction to Serge on top of Terra Tower. It came in "physical" contact with the Dragon God, but it didn't "open" until Serge was near. Thus, it appears that the FF can choose what sort of contact it is willing to engage in. (I can't remember, but did the FF open before Serge actually touched it? if so, that is further proof that physical touch is not needed for actual contact).

Consider also the lines from Chrono Trigger concerning the energy of Lavos:

   I thought so!
   Feel the flow of the mighty Lavos's
   power?
   Oh...I feel faint.

   Oh, but you MUST feel them!
   The last of the great Lavos's
   emanations!

That woman was not touching the Frozen Flame, the Mammon Machine, Lavos, or anything else that should count as an avatar of the beastie. How then was she able to "feel the flow" and the "emanations" of Lavos? She was coming in contact with something of Lavos, but there was no physical contact.

Indeed, consider the Mammon Machine itself. As noted in my original post, it would be a bit of a paradox for the Mammon Machine to have had the Frozen Flame in it, so how was it connected to Lavos? Again, physical contact didn't exist but it was still able to tap into Lavos' power (and, notably, it was able to do so at a great distance). This actually helps establish that Lavos radiates energy that others can tap into (and like any radiation, it gets "weaker" the farther away from the source it is, as seen in Chronopolis and in Zeal's attempt to move the Mammon Machine closer to Lavos).

Also consider how Serge's cry when we was poisoned by the demon panther thingy affected Schala, who was not present in any sense of the word. The two connected over time and space without physical contact.

Given all that, why should we assume that "contact with Lavos" has to occur on a physical basis?

But let us consider the reverse. Physical contact is necessary and the Frozen Flame existed sometime vaguely around 35,000,000 BC to 2400 AD (at which point it gets sent back in time). Do humans have control over it the entire time? Especially after the fall of Zeal, it seems like it would have been lost at least once or twice. If physical contact is all that is needed for evolution to be sped up, why are humans the only odd balls on the planet? It seems almost unimaginable that from 12,000 BC to 2400 AD no other living organism came in contact with Lavos.

Of course, as I had indicated, the Frozen Flame seems to be able to determine what sort of contact it desires to have with an individual. It is possible that the FF just randomly decided to evolve humans and nothing else. Thereby, even if a dog or fish or bacteria came in contact with it, it might not have evolved them.

So then, what of the first assumption, that the Frozen Flame is what caused human evolution? Well, were do we see that claim? Lavos' power influenced Human evolution, I have no argument there, but I do take the assumption that this was through the Frozen Flame to task.

To repost the quotes regarding evolution:

   This tower is a fortress belonging
   to the ancient Reptites...
   A symbol of revenge, brought
   against mankind by the Dragons...

...

   We humans have evolved at an
   enormous rate because of our
   contact with Lavos's flame...

This is the giant stone prisoner in Terra Tower. He says that humans evolved because of Lavos' flame, but as my original post indicated, that doesn't necessarily mean "Frozen Flame." It is also useful to note that he isn't a very good source of information. Terra Tower is Dinopolis, which was drawn from the Reptite dimension. Therefore, the tower cannot be a symbol of revenge against mankind; when it was built the Dragonian's had no (known) reason to want revenge on a species that may or may not have existed in their dimension.

   The DNA records are
   poems and music...
   Adenine and Thymine...
   Guanine and Cytosine...
   Rythym and Melody...
   Perhaps the DNA of the ones
   who make contact with the
   Flame is recomposed by the
   sound they generate within?
   I wonder if life-forms are
   just dreaming in an endless
   flow of music?

All this quote proves is that the Flame (which in Chronopolis can really only be taken to mean the Frozen Flame) can alter DNA. I do not deny that it has that power. But were is the evidence that it was what effected human evolution?

That Dragonian Record is actually the closest I can find that might tie the Frozen Flame to human evolution, but as noted before, it does not clearly refer to the Frozen Flame. Admittedly, the Dragonians might have been ignorant of Human evolution... or they might have been more knowledgeable. The Reptites were already advanced in 65,000,000 BC. By 2400 they surely had time to study evolution as it occurs in nature, rather than in a lab. If there were "humans" (or their evolutionary equivalents) in the Reptite dimension, the Dragonians might have even been able to compare Human DNA with the Reptite Dimension's "alternate" DNA and using advanced genetics they would have been able to establish when those two species separated from each other. Comparing DNA differences would have allowed them to establish roughly when certain genetic traits emerged in humans.

Anywho, as stated, I can't find any good evidence directly linking the Frozen Flame to human evolution.

Now, I suppose one might ask HOW, then, did Lavos effect human evolution? I would say probably the exact same way Lavos' power was extracted by the Mammon Machine, in the exact same manner that the Frozen Flame communicated with Wazuki and Miguel, and the exact same way the the FF chose to interact with Serge and not the Dragon God. From a distance.

We already know that Lavos's power was radiating significantly to a distance of several miles above earth's surface; Lavos' reach was rather impressive and it notably contained the surface of the planet (or at least, some areas of the surface). Humans tend to live on the crust of the planet, so they'd have been inside his sphere of emanated power. Lavos (or I suppose the Frozen Flame that was still attached to Lavos) could control what it was contacting, so it influenced humans only (and not all humans all the time). At such a distance the specific power might not have been significant (without a fancy machine to channel it), but what the power field might have lacked in umph it could easily make up for with time; 3 million years, to be exact.

If we wanted to go with a little more elegant of a theory, we can even explain why Lavos specifically altered humans. This goes back to Zeal:

   It all began aeons ago, when man's
   ancestors picked up a shard of a
   strange red rock...
 
   Its power, which was beyond human
   comprehension, cultivated dreams...
   In turn, love and hate were born...
   
   Only time will see how it all ends.

We see that Ayla's people had already come in contact with Dreamstone, and this book seems to be clearly referencing it (though with Radical Dreamers and Chrono Cross added into the mix, it might have been the Frozen Flame). It we say that it was actually dreamstone, and that helped influence humans and human evolution, then it seems likely that humans could have picked up one of Dreamstone's special qualities: the ability to manipulate and conduct certain energy sources (like Lavos' power). Humans may have been a species on the planet that was particularly susceptible to Lavos' influence due to their contact with Dreamstone. Even if humans didn't become conductive themselves, Dreamstone wasn't exactly rare in 65,000,000 BC. Just a few humans using Dreamstone tools (or wearing it as jewelry) could have been affected particularly by Lavos' energy over 3 million year. Humanities close connection to Dreamstone opened them to Lavos' power and helps give symmetry to humanities half-status. They are products of the Planet and Lavos.

EDIT: It is also highly fascinating that the Time Devourer's overarching goal is to retrieve the Frozen Flame. Could be that Lavos decided it really didn't need its Flame in the Chrono Trigger timeline and wanted it only after being defeated. Or, could mean that Lavos wanted its Flame precisely because it had been separated from it by Crono & Co, going along with your suggestion Thought. Not that the Time Devourer was seeking to get the Flame back, but rather that the Flame, bearing Lavos' consciousness, wanted to reacquire its body. I always wondered if Lavos incorporated Schala because it needed a substitute power source while it awaited the Flame's return, and fed off her soul and/or psychic energies (or wherever Magic comes from). Ahhh, sweet, sweet fanon...

Both the Frozen Flame and the TD might have been seeking the other out just for a desire to be complete. The TD (Lavos' future) desired to merge with the Frozen Flame (Lavos' present) in order to get revenge to what happened to Lavos (Lavos' past). As for why Lavos incorporated Schala, I am not entirely sure it had a choice to start with;

   As the palace collapsed around
   her, Princess Schala was sucked
   into a dimensional vortex along
   with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
   Schala and Lavos became unified
   into one even more powerful
   entity that would evolve into
   the Devourer of Time.

According to Lucca, the two became unified. One might say that Schala was absorbing Lavos just as much as Lavos was absorbing Schala, if we go with that quote.

   In the darkness that exists
   on the other side of time,
   Schala has been integrated
   with the Devourer of Time!

It isn't that the Devourer or Time has integrated Schala, but that Schala has been integrated. It doesn't seem like there is a conciousness controlling the integration.

   At the darkness beyond time,
   the weakened Schala came under
   the influence of Lavos, and
   the two became one entity.

Here we have that Schala became influenced by Lavos, but again the actual union between the two seems very ... mater of fact. It doesn't identify who started the unification of this new entity.

   You alone can decide how
   the new Lavos, which has
   encaged Schala within it,
   will evolve from here!

This isn't very helpful as it is the "new Lavos" (aka, Time Devourer) that has encaged Schala. But the New Lavos couldn't have been the one to have started the process (unless the TD is itself a paradox), so we still don't know how the two became one (or, indeed, why here, when the TD seems to have been made, is it that schala has been "encaged" rather than integrated).

You know... I am not even sure if Lavos itself wanted to merge with Schala or if it just happened and the resulting entity didn't really care what Lavos wanted. Maybe the Frozen Flame was actually trying to prevent the TD from maturing (after all, the FF was in a time line; if the TD actually ate all time, it would have been the death of the FF and any Lavoids out there). Perhaps that is why the Flame choose Serge to be its arbiter, to have the power to decide how the TD would evolve (and hopefully that decission would be away from one of utter destruction).

[FaustWolf]

Good point about the possibility that it was radiation that may have caused the evolution; I should have caught that even as I was making my earlier reply mentioning Lavos' "emanations," but didn't make the connection.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Phew... That was a read.  But a good one, I might add.

This is a little off topic, but perhaps someone could answer it.  Let me begin:

If Schala and the Mammon Machine were sucked through a vortex and somehow merged with Lavos to form the Time Devourer, it effectively removes both Schala and the Mammon Machine from the time line in 12000 BC.  Does it shuttle them all to the Darkness Beyond Time?  But if it does take Schala and the Mammon Machine to the Darkness Beyond Time, Lavos shouldn't exist there (as he hasn't been defeated yet).  So this explains a concept I think we all already knew: time does not exist, nor flow, within the parameters of the Darkness Beyond Time.

So we know that the Mammon Machine is removed from the timeline in 12000 BC.  My memories may be wrong, but don't we see the ruins of the Mammon Machine in the "pocket dimension" created by Queen Zeal in the Black Omen?  What are the dynamics that allow this to occur?  My memories may be wrong, but I feel like the ruined Mammon Machine was seen there in the Black Omen.

So how does that work, exactly?

[VincentGAU8]

Wow Thought.. that was real great.
So you're saying that the Frozen Flame actually contained Lavos' sentience, and that it was not really responsible for the Rise of Humanity and Zeal and the destruction of the Dragonians? That's very plausible, although a radical departure from previous and more conventional beliefs. I had also wondered at the FF before, how it looked like it was alive when you encounter it on Terra Tower, it didnt look like a disembodied part of the Lavos we fought in CT.

Well, i have not fully accepted the tidbit that the FF was inside the Mammon Machine, and this seemed to be a promising alternative to me.

[Zaulche]

Very well done, as re most of your research based threads.

I particularly like the idea that the Frozen Flame is Lavos. Perhaps Chrono and Company never actually killed Lavos, just its physical body, but its soul still lived and manifested as the Frozen Flame. Sort of like Sin, Yu Yevon, and the final summon in FFX.

I wonder if that is what happened with the experiment that sent Chronopolis into the past. They say that they were using the Frozen Flame to make contact with Lavos, but I wonder if they were actually contacting Lavos as the Frozen Flame itself. If it is Lavos then it should have the abilities of Lavos, just not the energy to use it like Lavos did.

[Schala Zeal]

I see nothing about Mel Gibson in this? Or does this concern Chuck Norris? -^_^-

[Oatmeal1209]

Maybe humans were affected by the Frozen Flame in a more obvious way due to (genetic?) ambition in general.  Humans might have become a great species without Lavos' influence.  We see all kinds of other beasts throughout the game, maybe they've been affected by Lavos as well.  This is just speculation, I'm not certain if there's any evidence of this mentioned in the game itself.

One theory I have concerning the connection between Lavos and the Frozen Flame lies in it's disconnection.  Here we have to assume the FF is in fact sentient, and can somehow communicate with Lavos.  Lavos' nature is to collect and integtrate into itself all kinds of DNA it comes into contact with.  The same could be true about the FF.  The problem is that these two connected entities would evolve differently, and IMO progressively think differently as time goes by and more DNA is collected (even if the FF does not collect DNA as Lavos does, Lavos and the FF would still become less and less alike).  If the Frozen Flame did separate from Lavos at the time of it's impact with the planet and it does not collect DNA, then would it not be a "pure" form of Lavos?  By the time the team comes into any kind of contact with Lavos' power, millions of years have passed and Lavos has already become "tainted" (for lack of a better word) with various DNA.
Anyway, the point here is that human contact with the Frozen Flame would not yield the same results as contact with Lavos itself, because they are essentially two different beings, having evolved differently.

Anyone willing to tear my thoughts apart?

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

I'm still wanting someone to answer my post about the existence of the Mammon Machine ruins at the pocket dimension in the Black Omen.  Anyone able to help?  Thought?

[rushingwind]

Both the Frozen Flame and the TD might have been seeking the other out just for a desire to be complete. The TD (Lavos' future) desired to merge with the Frozen Flame (Lavos' present) in order to get revenge to what happened to Lavos (Lavos' past).

Hmm.  I've always wondered how exactly the Time Devourer would be able to devour time.  Perhaps in order to evolve to this point it needed to unify it's past, present, and future. 

I'm probably going out on a limb here, but perhaps as one timeless being existing within a timeless dimension (DBT), it could become the very essence of the Darkness Beyond Time itself!  Just as the Planet is an 'entity', perhaps the new TD would become the living essence of the DBT, and draw all existence into itself (not just the little errors of time travel). 

Just a (probably flawed) thought.

[VincentGAU8]

I'm still wanting someone to answer my post about the existence of the Mammon Machine ruins at the pocket dimension in the Black Omen.  Anyone able to help?  Thought?

Well, probably that the Mammon Machine was sent to the DBT 'after' you defeat Queen Zeal.. At the end of the battle she opens a portal to Lavos, and then you fight him.. Although i'm not sure about this..

Time does not really flow on the DBT? That's the first time i've heard that.. How come? i see that when you fight him, time passes by, for example, Serge and Co. takes time in attacking and using up elements.. Maybe the DBT is its own spacetime arrangement.. Again, i'm not also sure about this.

[Thought]

So we know that the Mammon Machine is removed from the timeline in 12000 BC.  My memories may be wrong, but don't we see the ruins of the Mammon Machine in the "pocket dimension" created by Queen Zeal in the Black Omen?  What are the dynamics that allow this to occur?  My memories may be wrong, but I feel like the ruined Mammon Machine was seen there in the Black Omen.

So how does that work, exactly?

Magic

But more seriously, the quote says that as the palace collapsed, she was sent to the DBT. When did the Ocean Palace collapse? I would take the Ocean Palace and the Black Omen to be exactly the same, so that would actually be after Crono and Co defeat the Mammon Machine and Queen Zeal (and maybe Lavos himself). So that implies that Schala was in the Black Omen. And thus, she (along with the defeated Lavos) would have been sent to the DBT at the same time.

However, we might consider a different question. Which Schala was sent to the DBT? There is Schala from before the events of CT, who never met Crono and Co, then there is the Schala that did. Crono and Co's actions had already overwritten one timeline by the time they met Schala, so  it may be that the Schala that was merged with the TD was also one that was supposed to be discarded along with an entire timeline (in which the palace collapsed and did not rise as the Black Omen).

Maybe humans were affected by the Frozen Flame in a more obvious way due to (genetic?) ambition in general.  Humans might have become a great species without Lavos' influence.  We see all kinds of other beasts throughout the game, maybe they've been affected by Lavos as well.  This is just speculation, I'm not certain if there's any evidence of this mentioned in the game itself.

One theory I have concerning the connection between Lavos and the Frozen Flame lies in it's disconnection.  Here we have to assume the FF is in fact sentient, and can somehow communicate with Lavos.  Lavos' nature is to collect and integtrate into itself all kinds of DNA it comes into contact with.  The same could be true about the FF.  The problem is that these two connected entities would evolve differently, and IMO progressively think differently as time goes by and more DNA is collected (even if the FF does not collect DNA as Lavos does, Lavos and the FF would still become less and less alike).  If the Frozen Flame did separate from Lavos at the time of it's impact with the planet and it does not collect DNA, then would it not be a "pure" form of Lavos?  By the time the team comes into any kind of contact with Lavos' power, millions of years have passed and Lavos has already become "tainted" (for lack of a better word) with various DNA.
Anyway, the point here is that human contact with the Frozen Flame would not yield the same results as contact with Lavos itself, because they are essentially two different beings, having evolved differently.

Anyone willing to tear my thoughts apart?

The FF having a sentience apart from Lavos is slightly problematic as would it have still had that separat sentience when it was still a part of Lavos? I suppose it is possible, but there is no indication that Lavos has a split personality.

However, we might also (as I think you addressed) take it that the Frozen Flame's intelligence is a broken-off part of Lavos' intelligence. In which case, I think it is interesting to consider how the two might have become less alike; certainly, the experiences of Lavos would have altered its mind to some degree. However, that level of disconnect depends specifically on when the two became separated, which is a large point of the thread; we don't know when that happened.

As for contact with the FF having a different result than contact with Lavos, that really depends on what contact means and how much concious control the two have over the results. Lavos (and in turn presumably the FF) emit energy radition, so that might be the contact in which case any differences resulting from contact would have to stem from different levels of that radiation (and, possibly, if that radiation changed). All gamma radiation sources, for example, will effect you the same, varying only in one's nearness to the source and the sources power. Beta and gamma radiations, however, effect people differently.

Yet there is also a question of if Lavos can control that ambient radiation, or even direct it. So there might even be a difference between casual contact with one and intimate contact. But unfortunately, we don't know the answers to that.

Hmm.  I've always wondered how exactly the Time Devourer would be able to devour time.

How, exactly, did Lavos devour the planet's energy? I would argue that the general process is similar; the Time Devourer wasn't munching up timelines like they were a sandwhich, but rather he was draining them of energy in the same way lavos was draining the planet. In the end, the planet would have still existed, but it would have been left a lifeless husk. Similarly, the Time Devourer would have drained a timeline, leaving it physically there but utterly lifeless and devoid of energy.

But for the exact process, I have no idea.

[Oatmeal1209]

The FF having a sentience apart from Lavos is slightly problematic as would it have still had that separat sentience when it was still a part of Lavos? I suppose it is possible, but there is no indication that Lavos has a split personality.

However, we might also (as I think you addressed) take it that the Frozen Flame's intelligence is a broken-off part of Lavos' intelligence. In which case, I think it is interesting to consider how the two might have become less alike; certainly, the experiences of Lavos would have altered its mind to some degree. However, that level of disconnect depends specifically on when the two became separated, which is a large point of the thread; we don't know when that happened.

As for contact with the FF having a different result than contact with Lavos, that really depends on what contact means and how much concious control the two have over the results. Lavos (and in turn presumably the FF) emit energy radition, so that might be the contact in which case any differences resulting from contact would have to stem from different levels of that radiation (and, possibly, if that radiation changed). All gamma radiation sources, for example, will effect you the same, varying only in one's nearness to the source and the sources power. Beta and gamma radiations, however, effect people differently.

Yet there is also a question of if Lavos can control that ambient radiation, or even direct it. So there might even be a difference between casual contact with one and intimate contact. But unfortunately, we don't know the answers to that.

I would argue that the general process is similar; the Time Devourer wasn't munching up timelines like they were a sandwhich, but rather he was draining them of energy in the same way lavos was draining the planet.

Hrmm, concious control is something I hadn't considered.  Maybe it's controlled by... emotions?  Or something.  If the FF is in fact a piece of the shell, wouldn't having Ayla punch it have some sort of grave effect on her as it would touching the FF?  As far as experiences altering it's mind, I was also implying it's genetic nature, and the effect it's "radiation" would have had on beings.  But I guess that's all up to pure speculation.  I'll try to jot down a list of all the beings and objects that would have had direct contact with Lavos and the FF, and then a list of beings and objects that would have had indirect or faraway contact.  Maybe some sort of pattern will emerge.
So yeah, now I have to draw a picture of Lavos eating the planet in sandwich form, and the Time Devourer eating time in sandwich form =D

[Zaulche]

Hrmm, concious control is something I hadn't considered.  Maybe it's controlled by... emotions?  Or something.  If the FF is in fact a piece of the shell, wouldn't having Ayla punch it have some sort of grave effect on her as it would touching the FF?  As far as experiences altering it's mind, I was also implying it's genetic nature, and the effect it's "radiation" would have had on beings.  But I guess that's all up to pure speculation.  I'll try to jot down a list of all the beings and objects that would have had direct contact with Lavos and the FF, and then a list of beings and objects that would have had indirect or faraway contact.  Maybe some sort of pattern will emerge.
So yeah, now I have to draw a picture of Lavos eating the planet in sandwich form, and the Time Devourer eating time in sandwich form =D

That's interesting. Ayla did use her fists, and even the sword wielders had to get close to it. Even though Lavos is defeated there are a lot of people that still came into contact with it that would have received the radiation effects. Is that why even after Lavos is supposedly destroyed nothing really changes in the main timeline except that there is no longer Lavos? If you have a source giving off radiation that causes mutations and you remove the source, the mutation caused by the radiation is still there. A very interesting idea.