Marle's Disappearence.

[ShoeMagus]

While everybody is debating the idea of just how Marle may have disappeared without her disappearance affecting Crono, could it be that her vanishing act was in fact the beginning of time unraveling from the stress of an "infinity loop?" Placed in a context of "actually happening", the idea seems totally logical.

Rather than time shifting constantly between Crono and Marle meeting, going to 600 AD, and then the process reversing itself, would time rather just simply begin giving out? Like a dam with a crack in it. The crack, its weakest point, being Marle. Thus she disappears. If events had been allowed to progress, the rest of the world would have followed, steadily weakening and distorting or disappearing. But Crono, Lucca, and Frog interrupted the inconsistency and reversed the problem.

Just a thought on the subject.

[Insane]

More to the point, why did she dissapper anyway?!

[ShoeMagus]

Insane.....what do you mean?

Maybe it wasn't clear.

Maybe Marle's disappearance was Time beginning to unravel.

Makes me think of Donnie Darko.

[BROJ]

Insane.....what do you mean?

Maybe it wasn't clear.

Maybe Marle's disappearance was Time beginning to unravel.

Makes me think of Donnie Darko.

If time was beginning to unravel, wouldn't there be more and more frequent and severe phenomena occurring(i.e. cities disappearing/appearing, random temporal vortices, phasing, etc.) ?

[ShoeMagus]

Maybe not there necessarily. If I had to guess, "severe phenomena" would begin to occur in 1000 AD, but would eventually spread outward. I could be wrong. I understand almost nothing about physics, how time actually works, or anything else for that matter, but it was just a thought I had.

[BROJ]

Maybe not there necessarily. If I had to guess, "severe phenomena" would begin to occur in 1000 AD, but would eventually spread outward. I could be wrong. I understand almost nothing about physics, how time actually works, or anything else for that matter, but it was just a thought I had.

Fair enough, and I enjoy these types of speculation so carry on. Although I might add that since the distortions would be zurvan in nature, it might be more appropriate to assume a 5-D scale(consisting of the probabilistic dimensions) where all of 4-D space would begin to de-emulsify.

[Insane]

Insane.....what do you mean?

She couldn't have popped out of existance because Leene was still alive.

[ShoeMagus]

Hmmm....still not sure how to explain that.....Leene was still alive.

Thats the problem with determining mechanics of a plot that potentially has holes.

If nothing is predetermined, necessarily, then Marle's presence didn't necessarily destroy Leene (invalidating her own existence and Time with it). Similarly, as has been brought up, when Ayla leaves her time, she's missing for billions of years possibly invalidating a lot of people and events.

Not assuming that everything is predetermined (the mechanics of the Chronoverse, the fact that the plot occurs at all, argues strongly against that), could it be that instead the presence and movements of a person through time and in time streams have a "logical" impact? Meaning that, while Leene was still technically alive, Marle's presence made her likely to die, thus invalidating Marle's existence. This would not affect 600 AD immediately, but in 1000 AD, things would naturally change and thus Marle wouldn't exist. Even though Leene was still "alive" in 600, history was already changed according to a perspective from 1000 to incorporate the problem. Of course, again, this would create the so called "infinity loop" until corrected by Crono.

Something that has always bugged me is the obvious existence of subjective time streams. Meaning that, while the Kingdom of Zeal is something from the past and the Kingdom of Guardia is a future occurence, from Crono's perspective, Zeal is in his own personal "future." How do we account for the fact that people travel to the "past" in their own personal future?

[User240485]

I think i have a simple idea that might solve these. Frog/Gleen....what you might refer to him as was on his way to save leene, right? If Chrono had not appeared and helped frog then it can be said that eventually he would have fought his way though and save leene returned her. Everyone would be in shock that an imposture is present but it being the middle ages they would have just beheaded Marle. Leene would just take her place again, and the timeline would keep on chucking.

[Deezer509]

I think i have a simple idea that might solve these. Frog/Gleen....what you might refer to him as was on his way to save leene, right? If Chrono had not appeared and helped frog then it can be said that eventually he would have fought his way though and save leene returned her. Everyone would be in shock that an imposture is present but it being the middle ages they would have just beheaded Marle. Leene would just take her place again, and the timeline would keep on chucking.

I believe that they called off the search for Leene once Marle arrived because they looked so similar.  If Crono didn't appear, I imagine the search would remain cancelled and Marle would be faced with the grim situation (as we've seen in Futurama) of choosing between reproducing with her own ancestor or disappearing from existence.  A whole lot of "what if's" present themselves at this point... so let's just be glad Crono shows up.

[Thought]

She couldn't have popped out of existance because Leene was still alive.

That only assumes that Marle's existence was contingent of Leene's life or death. That she disappeared before Leene died clearly indicates that it is not Leene's survival on which Marle's existence depended upon. Something else must have happened, something not in the normal flow of time, that would have prevented Leene from producing a royal heir, and that something also being undone right before Marle reappeared.

Let see... who's behavior changed in regards to Marle being mistaken for Leene? The King's and Frog's. Who's behavior changed when Leene was returned? Frog's.

Simple matter of elimination: Frog was the reason Marle disappeared. Thus, the question is, what did he do to cause it, and what did he do to undo it?

The latter part is quite simple. We see Frog take his leave of Guardia and the Queen, then Marle returns.
But the former? Well if Frog leaving the Queen restores Marle, then the Frog looking for the Queen discarded Marle. In all likelihood, the result of Frog searching for the Queen on his own would have led to the two eloping. No Queen, no royal heir, therefore no Marle.

If nothing is predetermined, necessarily, then Marle's presence didn't necessarily destroy Leene (invalidating her own existence and Time with it). Similarly, as has been brought up, when Ayla leaves her time, she's missing for billions of years possibly invalidating a lot of people and events.

Actually, not likely. For example, it is indicated that Ayla is Marle's ancestor. Axe Ayla and would Marle disappear? Nope, for one simple reason; there isn't enough of Ayla in Marle to make a difference. Marle shares 50% of her genes with her mother, 25% with her grandmother, 12.5% with her great grandmother, 6.25% with her great-great grandmother, 3.125% with her great-great-great grandmother, 1.5625% which her great-great-great-great grandmother, 0.78% with her great-great-great-great-great grandmother, 0.39% with her great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother. Thats about 8 generations removed from Marle. Ayla is roughly 3 million generations removed (assuming a generation is about 20 years). Humans have 46 chromosomes. In all likelihood, Marle doesn't even share a single base pair that could be traced back to Ayla. Marle would be about as effected by Ayla's disappearance from the timeline as you would be if some random person in the plains of China died.

[killercactus]

What concerns me most about Marle and the beginning of Chrono Trigger isn't Marle's disappearance at all, but the way in which it was prevented.

We know, based on the theories and conclusions drawn here, that when someone goes back in time, a new timeline is created instantly as soon as the time-traveler in introduced into the past.  At the beginning of Trigger, we know that Crono, Marle and Lucca all go back to 600 AD, and history is changed.  However, they don't all go back at the same time.

Marle is the first to go back to 600 AD.  So, according to our knowledge, as soon as she arrives there, a new timeline should be created instantaneously.  The old future of that timeline is discarded into the DBT, and a new future begins from that point.  However, when we're playing the game, that doesn't happen (or does it?.... see below).  The story of Trigger tells us that, when Marle appeared in 600 AD, they found her, mistook her for the Queen, and the search for Leene was called off.  Leene supposedly dies, and thus Marle shouldn't exist in the NEW future.  Without Marle existing in the NEW future, Crono doesn't meet her at the fair, Marle isn't there to travel back in time, etc. etc.  My point is that the timeline should be discarded BEFORE CRONO GOES INTO THE TELEPOD TO SAVE MARLE, since Marle's travel makes a new timeline, and the same could be said about Lucca as well, since she traveled after both of them.

NOTE:  I am not suggesting the Grandfather Paradox, nor an infinite loop.  I am merely suggesting that only Crono and Lucca would've been prevented from going back in time, not Marle.  Marle is preserved in 600 AD no matter what happens in the new future, even if she isn't born, because she caused the new timeline to be created and the old to be discarded.  However, without Marle's influence in the new timeline, Crono and Lucca would not need to travel back to get her.

However, we know that this does not happen in Trigger.  Crono picks up the pendant like nothing happened to the timeline, and jumps in to save Marle.  Furthermore, Lucca comes back even later to save Crono and Marle.  There is no indication of a new timeline being created - nothing in the present seems to change as soon as Marle travels back.

That leaves two solutions.  Solution #1 would be that, what we see of Crono picking up the pendant and going after Marle is actually occuring IN THE DARKNESS BEYOND TIME.  As soon as Marle get's back to 600 AD, the old future from that point on is discarded to the DBT.  However, in that timeline, Crono decides to travel back to 600 AD.  He leaves the DBT and ends up in 600AD to re-write history yet again.  Lucca would have to do the same thing.  However, that means that beings from the DBT could travel into the real world, which makes no sense because beings in the DBT don't even exist.

Solution #2, which I think is much better, is that Marle's travel back in time does not affect her existence in the future.  In other words, what I said should happen above when Marle travels back happens.  A new timeline is created instantly, and it is created right around Crono and Lucca in 1000 AD, but of course they don't realize it.  We actually watch it happen in the game, but we don't realize it either.  The reason we don't realize it is that it doesn't change anything that we can see.  In the new future after Marle appears in 600 AD, Leene is still found, and she still has children, and Marle is still born in 986 AD or so, and still runs into Crono, etc.  I believe that this has to be the case, or else Crono and Lucca would have no reason to travel back to 600 AD to save Marle. 

So, I guess all I'm really saying is that Leene would've been found regardless of anything Crono, Frog or Lucca did.  She has to be, else Crono and Lucca would never travel back in time, even though Marle would.

[KebreI]

...Time Lag?

[Thought]

Problem there is that if Leene was eventually found, Marle shouldn't have disappeared at all. The game thus nicely disproves that solution.

Now, logically, Marle being mistaken for Leene was not what caused her demise (indeed, by the grandfather paradox, that shouldn't have happened at all until Leene was killed anywho). If that was enough to merit her ceasing to exist, she would have done so on the spot. Some other event must have occurred to cause her to cease to exist (the search being called off, a particular person who would have found her being notified of the cessation of searchation, etc). Given that Marle would only disappear if Leene would not produce royal children as per the original timeline (note; even if Leene produced non-royal children only, that most likely would have killed off Marle), and that changes to the timeline should happen instantly, and that Lucca was no effected by any such change, whatever caused her to cease to exist must have occurred after Lucca had traveled through the gate.

Lucca just happened to misidentify the cause of Marle's disappearance. Makes sense, since she wasn't even there to observe the event.

Personally, my vote goes to Frog being the one who caused Marle to disappear and reappear, based on decisions he was making (to elope or not to elope, that is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them?)

[killercactus]

Problem there is that if Leene was eventually found, Marle shouldn't have disappeared at all. The game thus nicely disproves that solution.

Now, logically, Marle being mistaken for Leene was not what caused her demise (indeed, by the grandfather paradox, that shouldn't have happened at all until Leene was killed anywho). If that was enough to merit her ceasing to exist, she would have done so on the spot. Some other event must have occurred to cause her to cease to exist (the search being called off, a particular person who would have found her being notified of the cessation of searchation, etc). Given that Marle would only disappear if Leene would not produce royal children as per the original timeline (note; even if Leene produced non-royal children only, that most likely would have killed off Marle), and that changes to the timeline should happen instantly, and that Lucca was no effected by any such change, whatever caused her to cease to exist must have occurred after Lucca had traveled through the gate.
Lucca just happened to misidentify the cause of Marle's disappearance. Makes sense, since she wasn't even there to observe the event.

Personally, my vote goes to Frog being the one who caused Marle to disappear and reappear, based on decisions he was making (to elope or not to elope, that is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them?)

The problem with the first bold part is that Marle disappears after Crono travels, but before Lucca does.  Lucca doesn't arrive in 600 AD until after Crono is already in jail.  Therefore, whatever caused Marle to disappear had to happen after Crono traveled, but before Lucca.

I disagree with the second bold part entirely.  I don't think Frog's decisions can influence the future at all.  Once Marle travels, the future is set in stone:  in the original timeline, Frog made certain decisions.  The only thing that changes is Marle being present.  Her presence either will either affect Frog's decisions, or they won't.  And the effect they will or won't have should happen instantaneously, changing the future immediately.  I don't think Frog really has any say in the matter.  So, if Marle's disappearance was based on Frog's new future decisions, she should've disappeared on the spot as well.  Also, that would still attribute Marle's disappearance to the Grandfather Paradox, which we don't want to do.

Frog deciding to elope -> Leene has no kids (or has frog kids) -> no Marle is still a version of the Grandfather Paradox, even though Leene is not killed.  The point is that Marle should not disappear for that reason, since her presence in 600 AD is protected by TTI.

My thought on it is that the Entity caused Marle to disappear.  Marle's disappearance is what gets Crono thrown in jail.  Crono's conviction is what gets the Kingdom of Guardia (or the Chancellor/Yakra) mad at him.  Being mad at Crono is what gets them chased into the forest.  Being chased into the forest is how they find the gate to 2300 AD.  Taking the gate to 2300 AD is how they decide to save the world.

So, the planet made Marle disappear, to lead Crono and co. on a quest to save the world.