Marle's Disappearence.

[Thought]

The problem with the first bold part is that Marle disappears after Crono travels, but before Lucca does.  Lucca doesn't arrive in 600 AD until after Crono is already in jail.  Therefore, whatever caused Marle to disappear had to happen after Crono traveled, but before Lucca.

No offense intended, but you need to play CT again. Crono doesn't get put in jail in 600AD; that happens in 1000AD, after all three safely return. Lucca appears as soon as Crono gets downstairs from watching Marle disappear in a shower of sparks; she had to already be on her way to the castle for that kind of timing.

I disagree with the second bold part entirely.  I don't think Frog's decisions can influence the future at all.  Once Marle travels, the future is set in stone:  in the original timeline, Frog made certain decisions.  The only thing that changes is Marle being present.  Her presence either will either affect Frog's decisions, or they won't.  And the effect they will or won't have should happen instantaneously, changing the future immediately.  I don't think Frog really has any say in the matter.  So, if Marle's disappearance was based on Frog's new future decisions, she should've disappeared on the spot as well.  Also, that would still attribute Marle's disappearance to the Grandfather Paradox, which we don't want to do.

Well, that is why I said personally, but allow me to explain it a bit more to illustrate how it could be possible. Frog makes a decision (I would say that the decision was to rescue Leene and elope with her, being disillusioned by the King's inability to tell the difference between two distinct individuals), so time would change instantly, as you pointed out. But, he has to make that decision first, doesn't he? So first he has to hear that Leene has been saved, then he has to travel to the castle to find out that no she hasn't been saved. He might make the decision right then and there, or he might have waited some time (perhaps even waiting until he found out that Lucca was looking for the princess). Thus, such a decision could have come any time between when Marle was found and Frog met Crono and Co. (my supposition then being that he made such a decision and then, immediately, Marle disappeared).

Frog deciding to elope -> Leene has no kids (or has frog kids) -> no Marle is still a version of the Grandfather Paradox, even though Leene is not killed.  The point is that Marle should not disappear for that reason, since her presence in 600 AD is protected by TTI.

But that is specifically it. By defining when the element that causes Marle to disappear occurs, we can determine if Crono and Lucca would be subject to TTI or not. As for Marle's disappearance, that will always be a bit of a conundrum. Her time travel was a bit non-standard; is TTI explicitly the result of time travel, or do the means of Time Travel bestow it; does TTI only protect a person's appearance in a time period but not subsequent deletions; etc.

There are two different problems and, by supposing that Frog might have been behind Marle’s disappearance, I am only really addressing one.

The first problem is that if Marle’s presence in the past changed the timeline, Crono should have never been able to travel to 600AD in the first place (and likewise, Lucca shouldn’t have been able to). The only supposition I can think of that would preserve the story is to assume that the event that caused Marle to disappear happened after Lucca had traveled to 600AD. That thereby implies that Lucca’s presence in the past somehow effected the timeline (possibly in the “straw that broke the camel’s back” sort of way) which is what caused Marle to disappear. Such a supposition avoids the first problem of the paradox.

The second problem with the paradox is, even if Crono and Lucca were able to travel to 600AD, any change to the time line would not have affected Marle because of TTI. The Entity might have been responsible, but such an answer is unsatisfying and unsupportable. Unfortunately it is a question of 4th dimensional physics, which we know very little about (in the game or otherwise). I don’t really have a good answer to this one problem (yet).

My thought on it is that the Entity caused Marle to disappear.  Marle's disappearance is what gets Crono thrown in jail.  Crono's conviction is what gets the Kingdom of Guardia (or the Chancellor/Yakra) mad at him.  Being mad at Crono is what gets them chased into the forest.  Being chased into the forest is how they find the gate to 2300 AD.  Taking the gate to 2300 AD is how they decide to save the world.

So, the planet made Marle disappear, to lead Crono and co. on a quest to save the world.

That would work... if the Entity intended to have Crono & Co  save the world. The question is, then, if the Entity so intended. The evidence is not very supportive.

First, the only evidence we have of the Entity's intentions is in the scene in Fiona's Forest. There it is supposed that the party's adventures have been the result of some entity reliving painful memories before it dies (in the specific case, memories of Lavos). There is no mention of the possibility of that entity bringing Crono & Co into the story in order to change those memories (though there is mention that memories can be regrets accompanied by "if only..." thoughts); the closest we get is an implication that the party are meant to be passive observers, sitting with the entity in its last moments of life.

The full implications of the Entity being behind Marle's disappearance are a bit larger than you portrayed. Yes, it would start the adventure, but it would also have taken the decision out of Crono's hands. If "The Entity Did It," Crono & Co are no longer free agents capable of changing the future of their own volitions. They go from being heroes to pawns. While such might be possible, it goes against the theme of the game and, as the game is a story first and foremost, I must reject it.

Side note, Crono being with Marle, who had disappeared, is what was responsible for Crono's jail time, not the fact that Marle ceased to exist in 600AD. There is no indication that her father was ever aware of those events.

[killercactus]

Yes, good call - I really do need to play CT again.  I had it in my head that Crono was thrown in jail in 600 AD due to the Queen, who was just found, disappearing.  You're correct, Crono is thrown in jail when he gets back for abducting Marle.  Marle's disappearance had nothing to do with it.

After you say that, it does seem that the event that caused Marle's disappearance had to happen after Lucca arrived.  As for Frog's decision though, I don't think that he has to make the decision in order for time to change.  That decision is already predetermined for him as soon as Marle is introduced into the era.  In other words, the future knows he will make that decision before he makes it.  That means, if Marle's disappearance is based on that, she should disappear immediately, by my thinking, since her presence is what will eventually cause Frog to come to that decision.  And since Frog's decision is based on Marle being there, not Crono or Lucca, it couldn't have caused Marle's disappearance, since Marle warped before Lucca did.  In easier terms:

The event that causes Marle's disappearance happend after Lucca warps.
Frog's decision was based on Marle's warp.
Marle's warp was before Lucca's warp.
Therefore, Frog's decision could not have caused Marle's disappearance.

I guess it depends on how you look at time.  Does time change as someone or something makes a concious decision?  Or does time change as soon as something is introduced that will eventually cause that decision?

So, I'm trying to remember what happened from the time Lucca arrived in 600 to Marle's disappearance.  One significant thing I can think of is that Lucca created, and time traveled with, a Gate Key.  The two previous travels through time were by the pendant reacting with the Telepod.  Could time travel through use of the Gate Key have some effect on Marle?  I'll have to ponder that.

[killercactus]

Sorry for the double-post, but I'm not quite done thinking about this.  I don't really like my "The Entity Did It" response, so I'm gonna try a "Lavos did it" response, based on a bit more evidence, though it's still pretty far out there....

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to assume Marle's Disappearance happens because she is NOT subject to TTI, and the Grandfather Paradox actually does take effect (or some form of it, be it Frog/Leene eloping or Leene dying or whatever).  So, the question now becomes "Why is Marle not subject to TTI?"

To explain that, I'll look at the only other form of Time Travel in the series that does not seem to be subject to TTI - the Time Crash.  We know that Lavos pulls Chronopolis 14400 years back in time, they win a war, and that 13010 years later, Serge is saved and (in Home World) Chronopolis changes into the Dead Sea, because Home World's future will be ruined.  However, if Chronopolis was subject to TTI, it should not change into the Dead Sea - it should be immune to future changes in the timeline.  It's been said that Chronopolis has temporal links with all time periods, and thus will reflect it's future state - I don't know if I buy that.  So, why is Chronopolis not subject to TTI?

GrayLensman brings up a lot of points in Salt for the Dead Sea that explain how the Time Crash is different from normal Time Travel, but I'll suggest another reason.  We know that Lavos, from the past, pulled Chronopolis back.  Therefore, the Time Travel in the Time Crash was caused by something in the past, whereas normal Time Travel is caused by something in the present.  Add in the fact that the factor causing it is Lavos (a being capable of creating its own pocket dimension), and you've got some large irregularities.  Perhaps this is why Chronopolis/Sea of Eden/Dead Sea is not subject to TTI in Home World, and the Dead Sea exists because of a version of the Grandfather Paradox - meaning that, since Home World will be destroyed, Chronopolis will not be able to cause the Time Crash, won't be able to go back in time, etc.

How does all of that relate to Marle disappearing?  Well, that depends on how she Time Traveled in the first place.  We know the pendant reacted with the Telepod, causing the gate to send her back in time.  Of course, we don't know anything about that reaction, or why it created a gate.  Therefore, I postulate that it did not create a gate at all, but rather the reaction exposed Marle throughout time - much like the Time Crash exposed Chronopolis.  With Marle exposed, something was able to suck her back through time.  We know that Chronopolis was sucked back to 12000 BC when Lavos was awakened, and he sucked it back to disrupt Crono.  I suggest he did the same thing to Marle, and he did it to disrupt Magus.

We know that, in 600 AD, Magus was attempting to gain power to summon Lavos and avenge Schala.  We also know that Leene had been kidnapped.  With the queen kidnapped, Magus could divert his attention from Guardia and the war, and worry about summoning Lavos.  Maybe Magus had succeeded in awakening Lavos in 600 AD and Lavos, who didn't feel he was powerful enough to come to the surface (or just didn't feel like coming and killing Magus), notices Marle is exposed through time.  Therefore, he creates a gate (which he can do, since his pocket dimension is connected to all eras through a wormhole) and sucks Marle back to 600 AD.  She is found, Guardia calls off the search, and refocuses their efforts on Magus.  Magus is then disrupted from summoning Lavos, gets ticked off, and sends Ozzie out with some troops to occupy Guardia so he can eventually begin the summoning again.  Since Marle was sucked back in time by Lavos from the past, just like Chronopolis, she is not subject to TTI, and therefore disappears when Lucca's appearance causes Leene not to have children.

I guess there are quite a few assumptions, but at least this attempts to explain why TTI is not in effect for both of these occurences.....

[V_Translanka]

That seems like a mighty complex maneuver by Lavos just to bug Magus.

[killercactus]

It might be, but do we really know if it's that complicated for Lavos to do?  I mean, if Marle is exposed, is it that difficult to warp her back?  We know he's capable of warping back an entire city 14400 years.  How hard can it be to warp one girl back 400 years?

Plus, if you're Lavos and you're being summoned, do you know why?  Lavos could be thinking "Anything with enough power to summon me might be a threat (heck, I haven't been summoned for 12,600 years) - instead of fighting him, let's just stop the summoning altogether."

[V_Translanka]

I meant complicated as a theory...Maybe I'm being too scrutinizing with all the Occam's razor stuff, but it just seems like more of a stretch...I mean, if he could know all of those connections between Marle & Guardia and how it would effect Magus, why wouldn't he also know what it would trigger with Crono & Co.? It seems more likely that it was a move by the Entity because the whole thing would eventually lead to Crono & Co. knowing about Lavos. If it was Lavos, it was an incredibly stupid move that didn't actually do anything but delay the summoning anyways. The same results, only far better & more concrete, would have been to just send Leene through time.

[killercactus]

Yeah, I'll grant you that it is a bit complicated...

Although, I wonder if Lavos would know what pulling Marle back will accomplish.... he doesn't seem to know what pulling Chronopolis back will do.  He just happened to be awake at a time when Chronopolis was exposed, so he yanked it.  He may have been trying to stop Crono & Co., but if he was, it didn't work.  Could be the same with Marle.  Magus woke him up, and he noticed this girl from the future exposed, so he decided to yank her back to cause some havoc and maybe throw Magus off so he could sleep longer.  In fact, if Belthasar figured that out, maybe that's how he knew Lavos would yank back Chronopolis if it was exposed.... heck, the whole Counter Time Experiment could've been just a huge Telepod that he had someone step onto with the Frozen Flame instead of the Pendant (ok, that's really a stretch).

It's still a longshot theory, but it works to fill in some holes within the series, and kinda does make sense.  One thing it does that I really like is it makes Lucca's assumption about the Grandfather Paradox correct.  I hated thinking that Lucca was just wrong - she's the brains of every operation for the whole game and just doesn't seem like the type to be wrong about something.  It also not only explains why Marle disappeared, but why the Telepod threw her back to 600 instead of any other time period, and goes some way to explaining what happened with the Telepod altogether.

I can at least use this logic to support the theory:

What are the two irregular instances of Time Travel in the series?  Marle to 600 AD and the Time Crash
How are they similar?  Both were sent to the past as a result of a scientific "accident", and the subject of both disappear due to some new event in the past
To what eras were they transported?  600 AD and 12000 BC, respectively
What is similar about those two eras?  They are the only two eras we know of in which someone awakened Lavos, and we know Lavos pulled Chronopolis back during the Time Crash.

Can it be just coincidence then that the only other real example of irregular Time Travel in the games was caused by a scientific accident, AND sent the victim to the only other era in which we know Lavos to have been awoken?  And the victim happened to be the only person (we know of) on the planet in possession of something connected to Lavos?

Yes, Lavos pulled Chronopolis back through the Frozen Flame, with which it had a connection.  I believe Lavos could've pulled Marle through the Pendant, which was made to control the Mammon Machine, which also had a connection with Lavos, and the Pendant seemed to be the cause of the Telepod malfunction.  (the only problem with that is that Marle leaves the pendant when she warps, but I suppose it could've already served its purpose)

Also, as a side, I'm suggesting the only reason he could pull Marle through time is because she was exposed thanks to the Telepod malfunction and the Pendant.  Leene was not exposed in time, nor did she have anything connecting her to Lavos that we know of, unless she also had the Pendant.

[Thought]

The event that causes Marle's disappearance happend after Lucca warps.
Frog's decision was based on Marle's warp.
Marle's warp was before Lucca's warp.
Therefore, Frog's decision could not have caused Marle's disappearance.

Logically then, if Frog made a decission that changed time (a big if, mind you, but one I'm happy with), then that decission would have had to have been influenced and finallized by Lucca (possibly just her presence).

Unfortunately, pinning down when the event happened that made Marle cease to exist is only half a solution. There is still the matter of why she disappeared at all.

I guess it depends on how you look at time.  Does time change as someone or something makes a concious decision?  Or does time change as soon as something is introduced that will eventually cause that decision?

Generally, time changes when an action takes place (Lavos isn't defeated merely because Crono & Co decide that they will defeat him). However, given that in CC we are informed that a 50/50 chance of an event happening can split dimensions, I am inclined to suppose that probability influences whether or not an action will change time. Through most the entire game, the probability that Crono & Co will defeat Lavos is significantly less than 50%, so time doesn't change. But if Frog made a decission to elope with Leene, and if such a decission was 51%+ likely to be successful in implimentation, then time would change. But such an idea is heresy, given what we know about time in the games.

[killercactus]

Logically then, if Frog made a decission that changed time (a big if, mind you, but one I'm happy with), then that decission would have had to have been influenced and finallized by Lucca (possibly just her presence).

That I agree with.  However, do you see, by using that logic, that it is Lucca's appearance that actually changes time, not Frog's decision?  Similarly, it is Marle's appearance that changes Frog's mind, not Frog himself.  All I'm saying is that, Frog's decision may be the catalyst for Marle disappearing, but Marle/Crono/Lucca's appearances are the catalyst of Frog's decision.

Generally, time changes when an action takes place (Lavos isn't defeated merely because Crono & Co decide that they will defeat him). However, given that in CC we are informed that a 50/50 chance of an event happening can split dimensions, I am inclined to suppose that probability influences whether or not an action will change time. Through most the entire game, the probability that Crono & Co will defeat Lavos is significantly less than 50%, so time doesn't change. But if Frog made a decission to elope with Leene, and if such a decission was 51%+ likely to be successful in implimentation, then time would change. But such an idea is heresy, given what we know about time in the games.

You're right that, in CT, Lavos is not defeated just because Crono & Co. decide to do it, but I don't think probability has anything to do with it either.  Once Crono & Co. decide to embark on their quest, I think that there is a 100% chance they will succeed.  We know this because we know how the ending of the game turns out.  However, even though there is a 100% chance, Lavos does not disappear in the future.  The reason is the same reason as above with Frog/Lucca.  The only thing that can change the timeline is an instance of Time Travel into the past, introduction of somthing new and its subsequent effect.  Just as the timeline above can't change until Lucca appears, the timeline including the planet's destruction can't be changed until Crono & Co. appear in 12000 BC the final time before fighting Lavos.  As soon as Crono & Co. step out of that gate that final time in 12000 BC, the future is changed.  Note that the future changes not at the moment they defeat Lavos, but as soon as they arrive at the time in which they WILL defeat Lavos.  If Crono would've looked into a crystal ball the second he walked out of that gate (before defeating Lavos), he would've seen a bright and happy future.

Unfortunately, pinning down when the event happened that made Marle cease to exist is only half a solution. There is still the matter of why she disappeared at all.

Yes, there is.  Check out my newly formed theory above, which I'm going to start calling "The Mini-Time-Crash Theory."  This, combined with your theory about Frog deciding to elope with Leene could go a long way to explaining Marle's disappearance fully, since it allows her to be subject to the Grandfather Paradox.

Actually, now that I think about it, the "Mini-Time-Crash Theory" could also explain how Serge's existence causes the Dead Sea to exist even if Crono defeated Lavos in 12000 BC.  Let's see if I can articulate this...

Facts:  Home World and Another World have the same past up to 1010 AD.  Therefore, Chronopolis existed in 12000 BC in both worlds, after being pulled back at the Time Crash.  In fact, Chronopolis exists in all time periods simultaneously from 12000 BC forward in Another World, and it is replaced by the Dead Sea in Home World when Serge, the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, survives. 

Effect of the Mini-Time Crash Theory:  Chronopolis can be a subject of the Grandfather Paradox, due to the method of Time Travel - something in the past causing the Time Travel vs. something in the present.

Resolution:  Serge being deemed the Aribter locks FATE out of the Frozen Flame.  In 12000 BC, Crono & Co. see Chronopolis and Dinopolis appear thanks to the Time Crash, and want to investigate them (originally, this happens in the past of both dimensions, since they both have the same past up to 1010 AD).  FATE is able to preserve the history it knows (just like Miguel says it does) and prevent Crono & Co. from investigating, however, since Serge is killed by Wazuki in Another World and it re-gains access to the Flame.  However, once the split occurs in Home World and Serge survives, FATE never re-gains access.  Therefore, FATE is powerless and cannot prevent Crono & Co. from investigating Chronopolis/Dinopolis.  During the investigation, something happens to Crono & Co., (they die in the war, get trapped in the Sea of Eden, anything) and they are prevented from killing Lavos.  The ruined timeline comes back into existence, and Chronopolis is never created in 2400 AD, Home World.  Since it was never created, it cannot be pulled back, and the Grandfather Paradox takes effect.  Just as Marle disappeared, Chronopolis disappears, leaving the Dead Sea.

........ does that make sense?  My head hurts now.....

[killercactus]

Again, a double post that I apologize for, but I think I've come up with a little more concrete explanation of why both Marle and Chronopolis can be subject to the Grandfather Paradox.

Let's start with what we know - Chronopolis.  The important fact is that is was pulled back by Lavos.  The City did not travel back into the past, it was pulled to a destination.

If you throw a lasso around an object and start to pull it, where will it end up?  It will end up exactly where you are standing.  We know that, in the Chrono series (with the exception of the dimensional split in Cross), one timeline is all that exists at any given time.  Let's call the timeline that exists Timeline A.  When a normal Time Traveler goes back into the past, he/she creates a new timeline from that point onward.  Let's call that Timeline B.

Now, in 12000 BC, Lavos exists in Timeline A.  In 2400 AD, Chronopolis also exists in Timeline A.  When the Time Crash occurs, Lavos (in timeline A) pulls Chronopolis back.  But, since Lavos exists in Timeline A, it can only pull Chronopolis to Timeline A.  No Timeline B is created, because Lavos can only pull something to itself, not into a new timeline (refer back to the simple lasso example).

So, we have a different form of Time Travel.  Something was introduced into the past, but a new timeline was not created.  Therefore, the future of Timeline A will be different, but the former future has NOT been discarded to the DBT, since a new timeline was not created!  It's as if the future of Timeline A still exists, but is being overwritten.  Since the future where Chronopolis is built still exists in 1010 AD, Serge's survival effectively overwrites that future.  The new future of Timeline A doesn't include Chronopolis' construction.  Since there is now no Chronopolis in Timeline A for Lavos to pull back, the Grandfather Paradox kicks in.  It was only possible because all of this occured in the same timeline, as no new timeline was created with the "pull" effect Lavos used.