interested about miguel

[Sentenal]

Zaper, Crono and co were appearently able to kill Lavos.  Thats why they killed him.  Serge was able to defeat Miguel.  Thats why they defeated him.  If Serge was able to defeat Miguel, and Miguel=Crono, then Serge defeated someone who was able to defeat Lavos.  And we know Serge isn't that powerful.  Were not saying Crono is a god-like entity, were saying hes extremely powerful, and we got in game evidence to support it.

So, Lynx overpowered Lucca, later killed her (most likely), and Serge and co defeated the Time Devourer..

Lynx vs. Lucca:
-Lynx's attack was a suprise attack.
-Lucca's orphanage was on fire, thus nullifing Lucca's Fire magic (would otherwise make the fire worse).
-Since Lucca was taken by suprise, she didn't have her armor, nor her gun (which is her only means of non-magic fighting).
-Lucca must have been preoccupied with the safety of the orphans running around.

These conditions lead to a being of lesser power kidnapping one of greater power.

And the TD was still developing, and was asleep.  Otherwise, it would have been Game Over.

[Zaperking]

Zaper, Crono and co were appearently able to kill Lavos.  Thats why they killed him.  Serge was able to defeat Miguel.  Thats why they defeated him.  If Serge was able to defeat Miguel, and Miguel=Crono, then Serge defeated someone who was able to defeat Lavos.  And we know Serge isn't that powerful.  Were not saying Crono is a god-like entity, were saying hes extremely powerful, and we got in game evidence to support it.

So, Lynx overpowered Lucca, later killed her (most likely), and Serge and co defeated the Time Devourer..

Lynx vs. Lucca:
-Lynx's attack was a suprise attack.
-Lucca's orphanage was on fire, thus nullifing Lucca's Fire magic (would otherwise make the fire worse).
-Since Lucca was taken by suprise, she didn't have her armor, nor her gun (which is her only means of non-magic fighting).
-Lucca must have been preoccupied with the safety of the orphans running around.

These conditions lead to a being of lesser power kidnapping one of greater power.

And the TD was still developing, and was asleep.  Otherwise, it would have been Game Over.

.......

We don't know that the orphans were running around. For all we know, once the fire erupted, they went into those hiding spots, and Lucca went to get the ice gun but saw Lynx and the confrontation started.

Also, You don't have any proof that Lucca's magic would be nullified. That fire was most likely elemental. Lucca's is magical. Magical fire > Elemental Fire. And I don't remember the last time when Lucca's fire attacks ever burned down anything. Say - The Ocean Palace, Zeal, Etc..
And I'm pretty sure Lucca would have guns somewhere in the house.

As for the TD, it's pretty awake if it's fighting back. It hasn't matured into the devestating power that it can unleash. But nether the less, It's Lavos with the Dragon God's power and a bit of Schalas.

[Discoman]

- Lucca used fire magic to burn the hammers from the hands of Orges in the Denardes mountains. Thus it would not be smart for her to use her Fire magic.
- The orphans must have ran to get to their hiding spots. They probably spent time looking for places to hide.

[Sentenal]

We don't know that the orphans were running around. For all we know, once the fire erupted, they went into those hiding spots, and Lucca went to get the ice gun but saw Lynx and the confrontation started.

Irrelavant.

Also, You don't have any proof that Lucca's magic would be nullified. That fire was most likely elemental. Lucca's is magical. Magical fire > Elemental Fire. And I don't remember the last time when Lucca's fire attacks ever burned down anything. Say - The Ocean Palace, Zeal, Etc..
And I'm pretty sure Lucca would have guns somewhere in the house.

Shes in a BURNING HOUSE.  You make big fire there, the BURNING HOUSE gets more on fire.  Thats common sense.  And she probably had guns somewhere, but not on her.  Thats why she lost.

As for the TD, it's pretty awake if it's fighting back. It hasn't matured into the devestating power that it can unleash. But nether the less, It's Lavos with the Dragon God's power and a bit of Schalas.

Its subconciously thrashing around in its sleep.  You ever roll over at night, sleep walk, or anything like that?  Anyway, its irrelavant as the TD wasn't fully matured.

Give up, Zaper, you have lost.

[Zaperking]

We don't know that the orphans were running around. For all we know, once the fire erupted, they went into those hiding spots, and Lucca went to get the ice gun but saw Lynx and the confrontation started.

Irrelavant.

Also, You don't have any proof that Lucca's magic would be nullified. That fire was most likely elemental. Lucca's is magical. Magical fire > Elemental Fire. And I don't remember the last time when Lucca's fire attacks ever burned down anything. Say - The Ocean Palace, Zeal, Etc..
And I'm pretty sure Lucca would have guns somewhere in the house.

Shes in a BURNING HOUSE.  You make big fire there, the BURNING HOUSE gets more on fire.  Thats common sense.  And she probably had guns somewhere, but not on her.  Thats why she lost.

As for the TD, it's pretty awake if it's fighting back. It hasn't matured into the devestating power that it can unleash. But nether the less, It's Lavos with the Dragon God's power and a bit of Schalas.

Its subconciously thrashing around in its sleep.  You ever roll over at night, sleep walk, or anything like that?  Anyway, its irrelavant as the TD wasn't fully matured.

Give up, Zaper, you have lost.

It is not irrelevant. Your so arrogant, it's pathetic. You must have not be very popular in real life, really with that tone =.=

1) Don't bring up the orphans if you think it's not relevant. If the orphans ran around, and Lucca mysteriously went to Kid, then she was already fighting Lynx.

2) The fire may have been started by Lucca herself fighting Lynx, but it seems more like those monsters caused it.

3) Lucca being the genious that she would realise that ending the battle faster (as in using any method such as magic) would give her even more time to save the children if neccessary.

4) We don't know if it's subconsious or anything. We know that it's attempting to mature. Lavos is very awake, especially when it consciously pulled back Chronopolis to try and give itself another chance etc.

5) I already said, since her fire magic never affected the surrounding area ever before, it wouldn't affect the house since it's magical, not elemental.

6) Lucca does have hypnotec, do not forget and many other tricks up her sleave.

The fact that she was knocked out, her glasses thrown off etc. kind of shows that there was a struggle, and she lost. Even Kid remembers it. She's avenging her because Lucca lost and was later killed, and I'm not sure how Kid knows, unless Kid thinks Lucca died since she was beat up so bad anyway. And don't forget, if Lucca can resist an attack from Lavos by your logic, then she can resist his axe thingy stricking her.

[Legend of the Past]

Zaper, okay? Don't take this to personal areas. If you keep this up, you'll lose more than just the discussion.

Now, agree with me that if your house is on fire, you ain't gonna go around throwing more torches. That'll just make the house EXPLODE, killing ANY hope of ANYONE inside the house to survive. Sure, she might kill Lynx and Harle, but who cares about that as far as Lucca's concerned, if she killed herself, Kid and all her orphans? Thus, NO FIRE MAGIC.

NO GUNS because she's hidden the guns, somewhere the little kiddies coulden't reach it, and seeing as how it's hidden and Lynx probably cornered her...

The kids won't be running around, but they would still be quiet a cause for concern. I want to see you try and contradict them hiding. Just try. That'll just prove you're so caught up in your ideas you're ignoring the game. Lucca knows her kids. She knew they'd be hiding but didn't know where. If she'd of shot a gun (If she could of gotten it) it would scare the kids even more, causing them to run around where Lynx can use them for A. meat shields and B. tools for blackmail.

Your magic\elemental theory is just a thoery, so imagine a situation where this theory doesn't effect.

[Sentenal]

I've read your little online journal, Zaper.  And you say that to me?  HA!

1) Don't bring up the orphans if you think it's not relevant. If the orphans ran around, and Lucca mysteriously went to Kid, then she was already fighting Lynx.

Your point was that orphans may not have been running around.  My point was that Lucca would have been conserned for them.  If they were in the actual action of running is an irrelavant point.

2) The fire may have been started by Lucca herself fighting Lynx, but it seems more like those monsters caused it.

Good job Lucca!  You burned down your own orphanage, and probably killed all your kids inside.  Your smart.

3) Lucca being the genious that she would realise that ending the battle faster (as in using any method such as magic) would give her even more time to save the children if neccessary.

Lucca being the genious that she [was] would realize that using magic would make the fire much worse, and probably burn the wood so much that the house would colapse, and everyone would die.

4) We don't know if it's subconsious or anything. We know that it's attempting to mature. Lavos is very awake, especially when it consciously pulled back Chronopolis to try and give itself another chance etc.

Lavos != Time Devourer.

5) I already said, since her fire magic never affected the surrounding area ever before, it wouldn't affect the house since it's magical, not elemental.

Wood+Fire=Burning.  Because, you know, her house wasn't made of wood or anything.

The fact that she was knocked out, her glasses thrown off etc. kind of shows that there was a struggle, and she lost. Even Kid remembers it. She's avenging her because Lucca lost and was later killed, and I'm not sure how Kid knows, unless Kid thinks Lucca died since she was beat up so bad anyway. And don't forget, if Lucca can resist an attack from Lavos by your logic, then she can resist his axe thingy stricking her.

Yes, struggle because Lucca couldn't user her magic, and didn't have her weapon or armor on her.  Lynx himself is strong enough to smack someone who can't defend themselves around long enough to knock them out.

Give up Zaper, you have lost.

EDIT:  Oh yeah, to disprove your "Magical Fire doesn't burn stuff" theory, I have some in-game evidence to prove it (I can hardly believe I have to argue this...).  The Ogres on Denadaro Mts.  They have wooden hammers.  Use fire magic on them, and their hammers catch on fire, and burn away.

[Zaperking]

Aslong as you still say Lucca is so strong etc etc, then you can't deny her defence capability. If she is as you say she is, eveni f Lynx hits her with his axe thing, she should come out unharmed from the impact >.>

Also, when I meant Magical Fire doesn't burn stuff, I meant it doesn't burn stuff without the will for it to be burned. Elemental Magic burns anything since it's the element of that. Lightning, Fire, Water and Shadow are the vital parts that hold the universe. If it's magical, it's channeled in to burn the thing. Did we ever see the ground be destroyed around Crono when he used Luminaire, or the ground to be squashed thanks to Frog's Frog Squash? Did the whole Black Omen get sucked into the black hole of Magus' if you used it there? Did Lucca's fire ever start a fire which she didn't want? NO! So even if the fire is there, it should only make her own spell that much greater to finish of Lynx and such. Lucca is a smart woman, and would know how to defend herself, maybe even throwing a chair or such.

And you don't think its weird that Lucca would be by herself in that room, and Kid comes in to later view the fight. If Lucca was really truely worried, she'd have tried to escape. Desperate times call for desperate measures, so she would have used her magic to her advantage. She did not, and whatever happened, Lynx was able to beat her. And even after that, the fact that Lynx later killed Lucca (probably in Chronopolis) would raise questions as to why she did not use her magic once inside there, since it was safer to use a fire spell and such.

[Legend of the Past]

No one said it was Lynx who killed Lucca-FATE herself could of killed her. A strong enough shock could cook her alive.

Regardless of anything- Lucca was as powerful as stated, but was helpless due to worry for her kids. That sort of emotion, and Lynx's relative emotionless self, was what got Lucca killed, eventually.

[Zaperking]

No one said it was Lynx who killed Lucca-FATE herself could of killed her. A strong enough shock could cook her alive.

Regardless of anything- Lucca was as powerful as stated, but was helpless due to worry for her kids. That sort of emotion, and Lynx's relative emotionless self, was what got Lucca killed, eventually.

If Lucca can get shocked and killed, but resist Lavos from your standpoint of view, then she should not have died. And as I already said, being in Chronopolis, she has the advantage of using magic now. Heck, if she was tied up, she could burn through rope or whatever.

[AuraTwilight]

Cause you know, it's not like heroes ever sacrifice themselves for the people they care about. "Do whatever you want; just don't hurt the kids." Etc. And it's not like Lucca could've been KNOCKED OUT or something. Lucca is not a god. She is a human being with human flaws and weaknesses. Even if she defeated Lavos, she did it with all her friends behind her, had all her weapons, had a will to fight, and had nothing holding her back.

[Sentenal]

Aslong as you still say Lucca is so strong etc etc, then you can't deny her defence capability. If she is as you say she is, eveni f Lynx hits her with his axe thing, she should come out unharmed from the impact >.>

No Armor+helplessness+Lynx being one of the more powerful beings on the planet=Lucca getting beat up.

Also, when I meant Magical Fire doesn't burn stuff, I meant it doesn't burn stuff without the will for it to be burned. Elemental Magic burns anything since it's the element of that. Lightning, Fire, Water and Shadow are the vital parts that hold the universe. If it's magical, it's channeled in to burn the thing. Did we ever see the ground be destroyed around Crono when he used Luminaire, or the ground to be squashed thanks to Frog's Frog Squash? Did the whole Black Omen get sucked into the black hole of Magus' if you used it there? Did Lucca's fire ever start a fire which she didn't want? NO! So even if the fire is there, it should only make her own spell that much greater to finish of Lynx and such. Lucca is a smart woman, and would know how to defend herself, maybe even throwing a chair or such.

Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look when you argue that Lucca's fire doesn't burn things because its MAGICAL?

And you don't think its weird that Lucca would be by herself in that room, and Kid comes in to later view the fight. If Lucca was really truely worried, she'd have tried to escape. Desperate times call for desperate measures, so she would have used her magic to her advantage. She did not, and whatever happened, Lynx was able to beat her. And even after that, the fact that Lynx later killed Lucca (probably in Chronopolis) would raise questions as to why she did not use her magic once inside there, since it was safer to use a fire spell and such.

I don't think I'm following you...  Lucca was by herself.  If she was worried, she would have tried to excape?  Worried about her safety?  Well, obviously, she cared enough about her children not to abandon her in a blaze.  Or worried about her kids?  I've been argueing THAT!

Do you think that after Lynx kidnapped Lucca, that he wouldn't tie her up, or something like that, to prevent her from using her magic?

If Lucca can get shocked and killed, but resist Lavos from your standpoint of view, then she should not have died. And as I already said, being in Chronopolis, she has the advantage of using magic now. Heck, if she was tied up, she could burn through rope or whatever.

Are you even listening to yourself anymore?  Personally, I don't think Lucca alone could take Lavos.  With the help of the others, yes.  No one is argueing that the Time Travelers are immortal;  you only think we are because you don't listen to reason.  FATE is a powerful being.  Lynx is a powerful being.  As strong as the Time Travelers?  No.  Enough to give them a fight?  Yes.  Get out of that mentality where you think were arguing that the Time Traveler's are immortal.

[Zaperking]

No Armor+helplessness+Lynx being one of the more powerful beings on the planet=Lucca getting beat up.

There is no helplessness. Lucca already knows that someone is after her, and she watches all her corners, as written in the Letter that she is expecting people to go after her. And sorry, i'm not the one who still thinks that just because Lucca killed Lavos - that it has to make  Lucca = Lavos in strength.

Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look when you argue that Lucca's fire doesn't burn things because its MAGICAL?

If you were reading what I said, I said that magic fire needs a will. Just like in Harry Potter, Magical Fire is different to elemental fire, and though Magical Fire is more dangerous than elemental, it doesn't spread unless they will it that way.

I don't think I'm following you...  Lucca was by herself.  If she was worried, she would have tried to excape?  Worried about her safety?  Well, obviously, she cared enough about her children not to abandon her in a blaze.  Or worried about her kids?  I've been argueing THAT!

Do you think that after Lynx kidnapped Lucca, that he wouldn't tie her up, or something like that, to prevent her from using her magic?

I'm not saying that she isn't worried for the kids. She'd try to escape from Lynx to go and put out the fire. But she couldn't. And being smart and knowing that someone is after you, Lucca would have protected herself and finished the battle as fast as she could to go after the kids. She did not, and it seems very un Lucca-like to not be prepaired for things even when she told Kid in a letter that she was watching out.

Also, tieing up people has not been shown to cause magic to be nullified. If Crono was tied in a rope, he'd Luminaire through it. Lucca, as seen in the battle scenes starts flying whenever she wants a spell. It wouldn't matter if shes tied, she can still cast it as it doesn't seem like they do hand movements. All they do is either chant or release the energy. And Lynx wouldn't mouth up Lucca since he needs her to TALK.

Are you even listening to yourself anymore?  Personally, I don't think Lucca alone could take Lavos.  With the help of the others, yes.  No one is argueing that the Time Travelers are immortal;  you only think we are because you don't listen to reason.  FATE is a powerful being.  Lynx is a powerful being.  As strong as the Time Travelers?  No.  Enough to give them a fight?  Yes.  Get out of that mentality where you think were arguing that the Time Traveler's are immortal.

No, from what a lot of people have said, everyone is thinking that Lucca was only defeated because she was surprised, but at the same time saying that since she beat Lavos, just like Crono, she should be as powerful. And the fact that everyone is saying that Crono could take out an army.

I'm saying that with the evidence that we see with Lucca's situation, Crono could not take on an army simply because of the thing that happened with Lavos.

[Sentenal]

There is no helplessness. Lucca already knows that someone is after her, and she watches all her corners, as written in the Letter that she is expecting people to go after her. And sorry, i'm not the one who still thinks that just because Lucca killed Lavos - that it has to make Lucca = Lavos in strength.

I've already gone over how she was helpless, if you still don't understand, maybe you will learn some day.  There is hope.  I mean, it took you a year to understand TTI, hopefully it will take you less time to understand this.

If you were reading what I said, I said that magic fire needs a will. Just like in Harry Potter, Magical Fire is different to elemental fire, and though Magical Fire is more dangerous than elemental, it doesn't spread unless they will it that way.

Magic is the manipulation of elements, nothing more.  Anything else is baseless theory used to support a crackpot theory.

I'm not saying that she isn't worried for the kids. She'd try to escape from Lynx to go and put out the fire. But she couldn't. And being smart and knowing that someone is after you, Lucca would have protected herself and finished the battle as fast as she could to go after the kids. She did not, and it seems very un Lucca-like to not be prepaired for things even when she told Kid in a letter that she was watching out.

I see you have this new idea in your head that Lucca became paranoid.  No, Lucca feared that someone my take revenge on them.  You know what?  I fear that I might get into a wreck on the way to class tommorow.  Does that make me paranoid, and be super-cautious, driving under the speed limit, etc etc?  No.  Its the same thing here.  Lucca wasn't so paranoid that she would spend every moment looking under desks, checking behind curtains, looking for possible attackers.  THATS un-Lucca like.  And as said before, Lucca could not finish the battle, thats why she lost.  I've already told you why.  If you don't understand yet, thats your problem.  Nearly everyone else does.

Also, tieing up people has not been shown to cause magic to be nullified. If Crono was tied in a rope, he'd Luminaire through it. Lucca, as seen in the battle scenes starts flying whenever she wants a spell. It wouldn't matter if shes tied, she can still cast it as it doesn't seem like they do hand movements. All they do is either chant or release the energy. And Lynx wouldn't mouth up Lucca since he needs her to TALK.

Tieing Lucca up was just an idea of how to prevent Lucca from doing magic.  Lynx must have taken some measure to stop her from using it, as there is no way Lynx could combat that.  Also, we don't know how magic is perfermed in CT.  But thats a mute point.  Also not that whenever Crono and co were imprisioned in CT (like on the Black Bird), they didn't use magic to free themselves.

No, from what a lot of people have said, everyone is thinking that Lucca was only defeated because she was surprised, but at the same time saying that since she beat Lavos, just like Crono, she should be as powerful. And the fact that everyone is saying that Crono could take out an army.

Your hopeless.

[Chrono'99]

Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look when you argue that Lucca's fire doesn't burn things because its MAGICAL?

If you were reading what I said, I said that magic fire needs a will. Just like in Harry Potter, Magical Fire is different to elemental fire, and though Magical Fire is more dangerous than elemental, it doesn't spread unless they will it that way.

The fire spells in CT don't burn the battlefield, because of the game mechanics. The field doesn't burn because the developers didn't make it able to. But if CT was an animé or a movie, the field would obviously burn. Fire + wood or whatever = burn. There's no such thing as "magical fire" or "elemental fire". In the Chrono world, Fire is a core component of the universe whether it's produced by magic or by a matchstick. You want proof? Lucca's Flame Toss. It's not a magic spell, yet it's still Fire and it appears to "not burn" the field due to gameplay mechanics.