Quick question about Serge as the arbiter

[Deezer509]

Yo,

I love Chrono Trigger with every atom of my being but I never completed Cross.  I've read the summaries around here but I'm always a little confused.  Is there any reason in particular that Serge is chosen to be the Frozen Flame's arbiter?  Or is it just because he's the loudest baby ever?

I've been kicking around some ideas for a possible fan fic/fan comic that centers around the idea that Crono, Marle, and Magus are purposely removed from Guardia circa 1005 AD so that Porre is successful in its takeover.  (I'm one of the people who is disappointed in the notion that Crono would have been defeated by anyone, let alone stupid shitty Porre.)

So yeah, I need to know why exactly Serge was chosen and not someone else.  Isn't Chrono Cross just the process of preparing Serge for the final battle with the Time Devourer?  IE, they just needed him to work out?

Thanks.

[RedStar]

I'll explain what happened as I understand things to have happened (this game is very complicated and I haven't spent enough time making absolutely sure I understand why everything happened, so I'll try my best).

Schala and Lavos are merged, and while they're chilling in the Dimension Beyond Time, Schala hears Serge crying.  He's a big crybaby, somehow Schala picked up on his suffering at that one time period, as opposed to someone else suffering in some other time period.  Lavos was corrupting her, maybe she temporarily was winning the battle with Lavos during that time when she somehow heard his crying and suffering.  Regardless of how, she did.

She causes a storm to send the people trying to save Serge off course.  They wind up at Chronopolis, Serge gets chosen by the Frozen Flame to be the Arbiter, the people with Serge don't end up the same way.  Maybe because Serge had such a strong will to live (shown by his crying that could get the attention in someone in the Dimension Beyond Time) was why he was able to become and Arbiter while his dad gets corrupted and becomes Lynx.

In short, he didn't become Arbiter because he was a crybaby, but he was directed onto a path that led to him becoming Arbiter.  That's how I loosely understand it, please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong or make details more clear.

[kritterpher]

   i thought it was because he died in one of the universes.

[Thought]

Ah, just something to note, there is no good, clear indication in CC that the "Frozen Flame's Arbiter" is really anything more than a security clearance at Chronopolis. Serge was an Arbiter, but the game implies that there were others before him (indeed, Belthasar may also be an Arbiter; which is to say, Belthasar might have the security clearance necessary to access the Frozen Flame).

Thus, Serge became the Arbiter because he was the one who touched the Frozen Flame. In doing so, the Prometheus circuit activated, gave him an internal security clearance level of "Arbiter," and locked everyone else out (specifically, he locked out anyone without Arbiter Level clearance... which was everyone, since that security clearance hadn't been granted in an age).

It is very important to note that Serge's status as an "Arbiter" is granted by and recognized by Chronopolis. One could say that Robo chooses Serge, not the Frozen Flame.

However, it should also be noted that there are two different "Arbiter" status' thrown around. The one used throughout most of the game seems to be in relation to the above; Serge is Arbiter of the Frozen Flame as determined by Chronopolis. But then, at the end of the game on Opassa Beach, the Ghost Children say that Serge has been chosen by the FF as an arbiter to judge the future form of the TD; Serge is the "Arbiter" as determined by the Frozen Flame itself.

This also reveals to us a little about the character of the Frozen Flame. It is not the Entity, obviously, but it also isn't the Time Devourer (why would the TD give a human the power to determine its own fate?). It might be Schala, as it wants to heal Serge and have him judge the TD, but the Frozen Flame is connected in some manner to Lavos as well. Thus, the TD might actually be a three-part entity. The Body of Lavos, the Soul of Schala, but the Spirit of something else (the Time Devourer). Indeed, the TD goals seem to be rather detrimental to Lavos, as Lavos is a parasite focused on the preservation of its kind (the TD would threaten its entire race). Thus, the Frozen Flame might represent both Schala and Lavos, as a sort of consciousness of the TD.

Under such a circumstance, Serge seems to have been chosen for a simple reason: he was available.

[Fireseal]

I never thought of the Frozen Flame as having consciousness. I just thought of it as an object that just happened to have been thrown out by Lavos' crashing into the earth in 65000000BC, such as the game says. I kinda thought of it as how an animal such as a cat or a dog, how they shed their fur. Who says Lavos can't shed? But the game clearly said that the Frozen Flame just flew off Lavos on impact with Earth.

As for Serge, yeah I guess he was the only one available at the time.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Well there seemed to be some organic component to the Frozen Flame, however, whether or not it was a consciousness or not is debatable.  As seen at the top of the Terra Tower the Flame seems to "blossom" with an organic like movement/sound, as if the carapace of the Flame was shifting.  Plus, when completely opened in the familiar flame-like shape ("blossomed", if you will), it seems as if two pieces of the orange shell shift, revealing an eerie and almost-organic eye.

Even that is debatable, but it definitely looked and acted organic.

[Thought]

But the game clearly said that the Frozen Flame just flew off Lavos on impact with Earth.

Actually, no it doesn't. The only indication we get of the Frozen Flames origins is a single statement from Belthasar:

   The Frozen Flame is a
   splinter from the extra-
   terrestrial being Lavos.

That might mean it splintered on impact, it might not. No one (except for Kato, and maybe not even then) knows for sure.

[killercactus]

I'm not even certain that Belthasar didn't help choose Serge as the Arbiter.  When Belthasar gets to the new future, notices the Time Devourer and blah, blah, blah, we know that he travels back in time to watch the plan take effect.  We also know that he may have somehow ordered Schala to clone herself, creating Kid.  Therefore, Belthasar may be able to communicate with Schala.

Schala creating a magnetic storm to save Serge just because he was crying never really sat well with me.  However, Belthasar telling Schala to do it, just so the flame designates him Arbiter, sits a lot better.  Belthasar needed someone to empower to defeat FATE, so he looked in the history books until he found a kid that got bitten by a panther demon and died as a result, when his father and his father's friend tried to take him to Marbule for treatment, but were unsuccessful.  He goes back in time, tells Schala to create the storm, and makes Serge into an Arbiter.  He also makes the Arbiter's enemy, having FATE corrupt Wazuki.  Then, so Serge doesn't ever find out about it and because Chronopolis and the flame needs a guardian, he locks Miguel up.  He basically killed a bunch of birds with one stone.  Then, Belthasar has Schala create Kid, knowing that one day, Serge would be killed by the now corrupted Wazuki and would need saved.  That sounds like some stuff Belthasar would do, and sits better with me than Schala just feeling bad for some random kid.

[Thought]

I'm not even certain that Belthasar didn't help choose Serge as the Arbiter.  When Belthasar gets to the new future, notices the Time Devourer and blah, blah, blah, we know that he travels back in time to watch the plan take effect.  We also know that he may have somehow ordered Schala to clone herself, creating Kid.  Therefore, Belthasar may be able to communicate with Schala.

To note, Kato has implied that Belthasar didn't cause the events that fall under Project Kid. He foresaw them and acted accordingly to bring about the desired result, but he may not have been the one who set everything in motion.

From the Ultimania Interview:

Question: "After building Chronopolis, the Time Crash that it brought about was unexpected," as said by Belthasar himself. "Everything was planned by Belthasar," says Lucca. Which is the truth?

Answer: Belthasar's excuse, Lucca's analysis. Lucca probably had the right answer. Belthasar foresaw 100% of everything, but having no reason to plot any of them. So, if you ask why did Belthasar gave such an explanation, he probably decided that it would be inappropriate to reveal everything then, at Terra Tower.

[killercactus]

To note, Kato has implied that Belthasar didn't cause the events that fall under Project Kid. He foresaw them and acted accordingly to bring about the desired result, but he may not have been the one who set everything in motion.

From the Ultimania Interview:

Question: "After building Chronopolis, the Time Crash that it brought about was unexpected," as said by Belthasar himself. "Everything was planned by Belthasar," says Lucca. Which is the truth?

Answer: Belthasar's excuse, Lucca's analysis. Lucca probably had the right answer. Belthasar foresaw 100% of everything, but having no reason to plot any of them. So, if you ask why did Belthasar gave such an explanation, he probably decided that it would be inappropriate to reveal everything then, at Terra Tower.

Right, but could this not just be an instance of Belthasar foreseeing, and acting accordingly?  If he foresee's Serge can defeat the TD if empowered, he acts accordingly to empower Serge. 

[chrono eric]

Well there seemed to be some organic component to the Frozen Flame, however, whether or not it was a consciousness or not is debatable.  As seen at the top of the Terra Tower the Flame seems to "blossom" with an organic like movement/sound, as if the carapace of the Flame was shifting.  Plus, when completely opened in the familiar flame-like shape ("blossomed", if you will), it seems as if two pieces of the orange shell shift, revealing an eerie and almost-organic eye.

Even that is debatable, but it definitely looked and acted organic.

Right after the battle with the Fused Dragon (I refuse to call it the Time Devourer), Belthesar gives you a little speech about this and that and then something else speaks and tells Serge to go defeat the Time Devourer and unify the dimensions. The text is not in a dialogue box and it is not labeled as to who or what says it, but it appears right above the Frozen Flame. Right after that, the Frozen Flame disappears for no apparent reason. Thus, I was under the strong impression that the Frozen Flame actually "spoke" to them (although why it would seemingly encourage Serge to act against it's own best interests, I have no idea).

I would go to gamefaqs and search Zeality's "Full Game Script" of Chrono Cross to find the actual quote, but the wireless internet that I am currently thieving from the apartment next door is running slow again. I'll try to find it later. I do remember that in Zeality's script it says "Belthesar?:" as the person saying it, although it if was Belthesar (who was speaking directly before this) then why was it not in a dialogue box, and why did the Frozen Flame disappear right after?

[Fireseal]

Well there seemed to be some organic component to the Frozen Flame, however, whether or not it was a consciousness or not is debatable.  As seen at the top of the Terra Tower the Flame seems to "blossom" with an organic like movement/sound, as if the carapace of the Flame was shifting.  Plus, when completely opened in the familiar flame-like shape ("blossomed", if you will), it seems as if two pieces of the orange shell shift, revealing an eerie and almost-organic eye.

Even that is debatable, but it definitely looked and acted organic.

Right after the battle with the Fused Dragon (I refuse to call it the Time Devourer)....

That's what it is called in the game lol... It is very much not a 'Fused Dragon'. The Dragon God was devoured and not fused with the TD. If it were fused, you would see an obvious component on the TD. Belthasar said in the game himself, that the Dragon God was devoured by the Time Devourer, meaning it's gone, dead, no trace of any type of dragon element on the TD. It ate it for lunch.

I think you may be confusing the Time Devourer for the Dragon God. Now the Dragon God would be your 'Fused Dragon'.. Yet not really 'Fused', since the Dragon God was split in 6 weaker dragons to begin with.

[Thought]

Thus, I was under the strong impression that the Frozen Flame actually "spoke" to them (although why it would seemingly encourage Serge to act against it's own best interests, I have no idea).

Unless the Frozen Flame's best interests are not the Time Devourer's best interests. Remember, if the TD suceeds in destorying existence, the Frozen Flame would go with it (unless it is absorbed into the TD as well, which is may or may not want to do).

Of course, the FF also serves as Schala's mouthpiece on occasions. She may be the one telling Serge to go defeat the TD.

[chrono eric]

Maybe, but it's hopelessly ambiguous in the script.

That's what it is called in the game lol...

Uh...yeah...but it's a poor translation in the game. I did not mean to imply that the Dragon God was "fused" with the Time Devourer - I wasn't even talking about that to begin with. What I pointed out was that the Dragon God and the Time Devourer are two different things entirely, which the translation renders confusing by naming them both "Time Devourer". Kapeesh?

[Vehek]

No. I don't have the picture right now, but they had the same name in battle in the Japanese version.