Question about FATE and the FF

[Moonglasses]

Hi all. I've been doing a lot of reading but am unable to find the answers to a few confusing questions I have regarding FATE and the FF. Now, I know that FATE was using the FF to power itself. However, once Serge became the Arbiter, FATE was no longer able to access the FF. My question now: Did FATE shut down operations completely without the FF, or was it just unable to operate large scale that it had before (ie, controlling human destinies via records of fate)?

If I had to guess, I would have to say it was the latter of the two, as FATE still seemed able to manipulate Wazuki (into eventually becoming Lynx), imprisoning Miguel, and containing that six dragons. Still, I'm really not at all sure. How does FATE power itself? Is the FF just a tool to expand FATE's power?

Regarding the FF, what I have been reading through has been unclear. Are there two FFs, one for each dimension? If so, is Serge the Arbiter of both? Or was one of them destroyed along with the mess that is the Home World's Dead Sea?

Oh, and one final thing. After reading a fair bit of Salt for the Dead Sea, I'm still confused. Are there two Dead Seas? If so, (and Miguel's character profile does say so) why do both dimensions have them? Isn't it only supposed to reflect the ruinous future of the home world?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm sure the answers are out there and I'm just not looking in the right places. If anybody has any knowledge, theories, thoughts, or opinions to contribute, I'd really appreciate it!

[Lord Chrono]

I would be happey to answer these questions for you.

SPOILER ALERT
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

FATE did not use the FF to power itself.  FATE used the FF to conduct time experiments which resulted in the time crash which hurled Chronopolis back in time.  When Chronopolis was pulled back, Dinopolis was also pulled back.  Dinopolis was the future Reptite city of Azala's decendents from another dimension.  During the war with Dinopolis FATE used the FF to seal the Dragon God, which came from Dinopolis, into the six weaker Dragon Gods you fought earlier.  This is why the Dragon Gods wanted you to defeat FATE and release the FF.  FATE was nothing more than the giant super computer of Chronopolis and probably had another powersource (which would explain why a giant electrical storm was able to knock FATE offline temporarily).

When Serge became the Arbiter, FATE only lost control over homeworld (probably because Chronopolis only existed in another world after Serge came into contact with the flame).  This also marked the creation of the Dead Sea where Miguel was used as a "watchmen" to look over homeworld.  There was in fact a FF in both dimensions also.  There was one in Chronopolis and one in the Dead Sea, which was destroyed.  As a matter of fact, one of the duties FATE charged to Miguel was to make sure no one came into contact with the FF at the core of the Dead Sea.  Remember back to what Miguel said before he died.  "It would seem FATE has made up its mind.  FATE would rather destroy the Dead Sea and the flame along with it than allow its enemies to come into contact with it."  Or something like that anyway.  In fact there is also a third FF that exists in the RD dimension which was proven to exist in the digital diary in Chronopolis.  The FF was nothing more than a shard from the outter shell of Lavos so there may be many more we don't even know about (*hint hint* to possible SE spies out there).

And finally, there is only one Dead Sea.  Serge's Homeworld is the alternate dimension of what COULD have been.  That being said it makes sense why the Dead Sea (reflection of the future that would have been) is in homeworld.  Also if you go by the Sea of Eden in Another World (real world) you can see Chronopolis inside.  There of course is no way to get in there from Another World which is why you have to go the the Dead Sea ruins in Homeworld and use the FATE distortion there to cross dimensions within the Sea of Eden.

I hope this helps shed some light on your quesions.  I know the first playthrough can be a bit confusing for some.

~Lord Chrono~

[Thought]

When Serge became the Arbiter, FATE only lost control over homeworld (probably because Chronopolis only existed in another world after Serge came into contact with the flame).  This also marked the creation of the Dead Sea where Miguel was used as a "watchmen" to look over homeworld.  There was in fact a FF in both dimensions also.  There was one in Chronopolis and one in the Dead Sea, which was destroyed.

Actually, the dimensions split occurred when Serge was almost killed by Lynx, several years after he became "Arbiter." It wasn't until the Dimensional Split that the Dead Sea was formed, so for a few years there was only one Frozen Flame and Serge was the Arbiter to it.

To note, "Arbiter" is a security clearance level in Chronopolis. It is a status granted by the research center, not the Frozen Flame (though to be fair, there are a few small indications that there is a secondary use of the term "arbiter" in the game that the FF does determine). So, when the dimensions split and Chronopolis was replaced with the Tower of Geddon, the very place that had "Arbiter" as a level of authority in its security systems was removed from Home World. Thus, with no security system, Serge couldn't very well have that status there.

In fact there is also a third FF that exists in the RD dimension which was proven to exist in the digital diary in Chronopolis.

To note, the Frozen Flame in the Radical Dreamer dimension is totally different than the FF in the Chrono Cross dimensions. In RD the Frozen Flame is dreamstone, which is not part of Lavos. In CC, the Frozen Flame is part of Lavos’ body that broke off.

The FF was nothing more than a shard from the outter shell of Lavos so there may be many more we don't even know about (*hint hint* to possible SE spies out there).

Actually, no.

1) The Frozen Flame is a part of Lavos but we have no idea where that part came from (might have been the outer shell, but it might not have been).
2) It is likely that the Frozen Flame was unique. Lavos' corpse was still somewhere in the real world; if any part of its body could become a Frozen Flame, FATE would have been after the big enchilada, not the tiny taco. As such, chances are the Frozen Flame was a unique and possibly an important component of Lavos’ whole. But there are almost certainly no other Frozen Flames that we don't know about (there could be, but it is quite unlikely).

And finally, there is only one Dead Sea.  Serge's Homeworld is the alternate dimension of what COULD have been.  That being said it makes sense why the Dead Sea (reflection of the future that would have been) is in homeworld.

Maybe. The Dead Sea is also identified as the timeline that Crono & Co destoryed, coming back into existance. It was a future, but it isn't clear as to if it was the future of Home World.

If you want to find out more about Lavos and the Frozen Flame, I'd recommend visiting the analysis forum (specifically, the "Lavos, the Planet, and Other Entities" sub forum).

[Lord Chrono]

Actually, the dimensions split occurred when Serge was almost killed by Lynx, several years after he became "Arbiter." It wasn't until the Dimensional Split that the Dead Sea was formed, so for a few years there was only one Frozen Flame and Serge was the Arbiter to it.

Actually it was mentioned at the end of the game by the Crono child that the dimensional split happend when Schala was sucked into the dimensional vortex and was sent to the Darken Beyond Time, not when Serge almost drowned (which is when Lynx attempted to kill/did kill him).  The disturbance caused by the fusion between Schala, the Mammon Machine, and Lavos was so great it spanned through all timelines.  Taking that into perspective it is not possible for there to have been only one flame at any point.

To be clear, when Lavos was defeated it was sent to the Darkness Beyond Time which is how the Schala was intercepted and the fusion began.

The theory you present makes the dimension where dinopolis was pulled from impossible.  Just some food for thought.

To note, "Arbiter" is a security clearance level in Chronopolis. It is a status granted by the research center, not the Frozen Flame (though to be fair, there are a few small indications that there is a secondary use of the term "arbiter" in the game that the FF does determine). So, when the dimensions split and Chronopolis was replaced with the Tower of Geddon, the very place that had "Arbiter" as a level of authority in its security systems was removed from Home World. Thus, with no security system, Serge couldn't very well have that status there.

Yes the term "Arbiter" was a security measure, but Serge was still chosen by the FF to trigger something and was the only person with that kind of bond.  This is pointed out by the Crono, Lucca, and Marle children in the Dead Sea.

To note, the Frozen Flame in the Radical Dreamer dimension is totally different than the FF in the Chrono Cross dimensions. In RD the Frozen Flame is dreamstone, which is not part of Lavos. In CC, the Frozen Flame is part of Lavos’ body that broke off.

Your point with the RD FF...fair enough.

Actually, no.

1) The Frozen Flame is a part of Lavos but we have no idea where that part came from (might have been the outer shell, but it might not have been).
2) It is likely that the Frozen Flame was unique. Lavos' corpse was still somewhere in the real world; if any part of its body could become a Frozen Flame, FATE would have been after the big enchilada, not the tiny taco. As such, chances are the Frozen Flame was a unique and possibly an important component of Lavos’ whole. But there are almost certainly no other Frozen Flames that we don't know about (there could be, but it is quite unlikely).

As far as the FF being unique...the story could go either way on this.  As you said, it was never specified which part of Lavos it came from.

Maybe. The Dead Sea is also identified as the timeline that Crono & Co destoryed, coming back into existance. It was a future, but it isn't clear as to if it was the future of Home World.

You are correct, the Dead Sea may not have been the future of Homeworld.  But my point was that the Dead Sea was a reflection of the future that COULD have been and therefore couldn't be present in the "real" world.

~Lord Chrono~

[Thought]

Actually it was mentioned at the end of the game by the Crono child that the dimensional split happend when Schala was sucked into the dimensional vortex, not when Serge almost drowned (which is when Lynx attempted to kill/did kill him).  The disturbance of the fusion between Schala, the Mammon Machine, and Lavos spawn was so great it spanned through all timelines.

Actually, it didn't mention what you think it mentioned. Take another look:

   When did this sorry tale
   all begin...?
   Was it 10 years ago, when
   you almost drowned here?
   Or was it 14 years ago, when
   you were wounded by that
   panther demon that attacked
   you...
   ...resulting in you being
   carried to Chronopolis where
   you came into contact with
   FATE and the Frozen Flame...?
   Or perhaps it was even 2,400
   years in the future, when the
   Time Crash hurled Chronopolis
   back to prehistoric times?
   Or even it could have been
   12,000 B.C., when an ancient
   magical kingdom met its end
   after trying to use Lavos...?

   Each is close to being
   correct...
   And yet, at the same time,
   so far from the right answer!
   The true beginning was during
   the destruction of the ancient
   Kingdom of Zeal!
   As the palace collapsed around
   her, Princess Schala was sucked
   into a dimensional vortex along
   with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
   Schala and Lavos became unified
   into one even more powerful
   entity that would evolve into
   the Devourer of Time.
   Filled with the hatred and
   sadness of Lavos, half of
   Schala's mind became set on
   destroying all of existence.
   Yet at the same time, the
   other half of her mind
   desired to save the universe
   and to be rescued herself.
   As Schala fell through the
   time gate in this condition,
   she heard your crying
   echoing through time...
   That is when her story and
   yours began to intertwine...
   It is also when the past and
   the future began to intersect,
   and when the world became
   divided into two...

Schala getting sucked into the vortex was the beginning, true, but it the beginning of "this sorry tale," not the beginning of the dimensional split. It wasn't until after she traveled to 1006 that "the past and future began to intersect." From that we might assume that the dimensional split occured when Schala caused the magnetic storm. However, you will note that such an event was the begining, not the actualization. Consider other parts of the script:

   Serge... This world is not
   the world you grew up in.
   10 years ago, something
   happened that put your very
   soul teetering on the
   balancing scales of fate...
   with a fifty-fifty chance
   of life or death!
   This is when your future
   was split in twain.

Pretty clear there when the dimensions split, but also look at Miguel's words:

   I'm Miguel.
   A friend of your father.
   According to the time outside,
   it's been about 14 years since
   the night of the storm...

...

   Yes... I've been here
   in this very place...
   For 14 years...
   It wasn't like this
   when I got here, though...
   An incident that occurred
   10 years ago, transformed
   it into the Dead Sea.

If the dimensional split is what caused the Dead Sea to replace the Sea of Eden, then that split had to have happened in 1010AD.

The theory you present makes the dimension where dinopolis was pulled from impossible.

How so?

Yes the term "Arbiter" was a security measure, but Serge was still chosen by the FF to trigger something and was the only person with that kind of bond.  This is pointed out by the Crono, Lucca, and Marle children in the Dead Sea.

True, but if you recall Serge was chosen by the FF to decide how the "new Lavos" was to evolve. A curious task; why would Lavos give a human the power to determine its fate? And curiouser still, this implies that Serge did choose how the TD was to evolve (but if its evolution was determined at the end of the Final battle, then that implies that the TD is still alive, only in a different stage of evolution).

But as I said, there are secondary implications of an "arbiter" status being used by the FF. Most likely this was part of a removed plotline.

[Lord Chrono]

It says his future was split in twain, not the dimensions.  By that it simply means that in one world his future was to die and in another his future was to live.  It began when past, present, and future began to intersect and this disturbance created the dimensional split.  Also, while the game was played through two dimensions, there are many more out there.  Don't you think if a life and death situation caused the split there would only be the two?

Keep in mind that if the split happend in 1010AD then Dinopolis couldn't exist in any dimension.  This is because the age of Azala was LONG before any of these events took place and would not be affected by such a small split.

Chronopolis had already existed and went through the time crash in the far future and was tossed back in time to the distant past.  At this point the Battle between Dinopolis and Chronopolis took place.  It wasn't till much later AFTER Chronopolis beat Dinopolis that El Nido was even created.  That being said I don't think the initial dimensional disturbance took place when Serge was killed.  Especially since the Dinopolis dimension existed before 1010AD and the battle of Dinopolis and Chronopolis happend before the creation of El Nido.  Remember, before FATE created El Nido that entire area was nothing but ocean and was known completly as the Sea of Eden.  Also FATE was monitoring activities in BOTH dimensions and lost its hold on Serge's homeworld when Lynx failed to kill Serge and the Dead Sea was created.  Miguel was then put there as a "watchman" to make sure no one would come into contact with the FF.  All of this info can be found by talking with EVERY NPC in chronopolis.

You did refresh my memory and correct me on one key point that slipped my mind and makes me wonder.  It was not the dimensional split that caused the Dead Sea to form but instead was the failed attempt to kill Serge.  This resulted in the Dead Sea being formed to reflect what I believe to be the future of that world due to Serge's existence.  The transformation was probably brought forth by the FF itself as I can't think of anything else that has the power to do something like that.  After all, the FF was the initial link between Serge and the "new Lavos".  The Miguel from Homeworld was killed when the Dead Sea came about and the Miguel from Another World was put there as the "watchman".

EDIT

Perhaps there is some truth behind both theories.  Maybe the initial dimensions were caused by one thing (RD timeline, Dinopolis timeline, and Chronopolis timeline) and the Homeworld and Another World of the Chronopolis timeline did indeed originate from when Lynx kills Serge, resulting in a split of that one timeline.  I still see a problem with this theory however.  Why is it that when Crono goes back in time to save the world it affects the REAL world where when Kid does it to save Serge it only saves him in the alternate world?  That just doesn't add up to me.  Until I can find an answer to that I have to go with the theory I posted above the EDIT.

I must say this has turned into a very interesting conversation.  Anything else to add?

~Lord Chrono~

[Thought]

Sorry LC, I'm generally not on much on the weekends so I didn't have a chance to respond to you sooner.

Keep in mind that if the split happend in 1010AD then Dinopolis couldn't exist in any dimension.  This is because the age of Azala was LONG before any of these events took place and would not be affected by such a small split.

Again, how so?

Here is the order of events, as they occured from a non-linear perspective:
Belthasar appeared in 2300 and founded Chronopolis->Time Crash occured in 2400 sending Chronopolis back to around 12,000 BC-> The Entity reacted by pulling Dragonopolis into the standard dimension in order to counteract Chronopolis -> Serge was born and in 1010 he died -> in 1020 (or 1030, depending on how one reads certain lines) Kid is sent back to 1010 to save Serge -> Serge has a 50/50 chance of life and death, causing the dimensions to split.

As the dimensions split at 1010, they have the exact same history up until 1010, but different "histories" after that point. As Dragonopolis was pulled into the standard demension before 1010, it would exist in both dimensions past (and present, and future).

It wasn't till much later AFTER Chronopolis beat Dinopolis that El Nido was even created.

Sort of:

   You're from Medina, right?
   I've been on this island
   for a year and a half now.
   Man, I've had enough.
   Aside from the man-made island
   with this research center,
   there isn't a single island
   in the sea of El Nido.

As we see, Chronopolis was built in El Nido, but it was an islandless El Nido. Then the Time Crash occured, then the other islands were built, but for a time it was called "The Sea of Eden" until FATE sealed the Dragon Gods (at which time it regained the name El Nido). As such, El Nido with islands must have been created after the time crash but before FATE defeated the Dragonians or right right after (as the islands were also built to represent the dragon gods).

I still see a problem with this theory however.  Why is it that when Crono goes back in time to save the world it affects the REAL world where when Kid does it to save Serge it only saves him in the alternate world?  That just doesn't add up to me.

Because when Crono saved the world, it effected the ONLY dimension (and presumably had more than a 50/50 chance). But when Kid saved Serge, it had a 50/50 chance (something very hard to do, as things should generally be skewed one way or the other, even if only slightly). The Dimension Split and in one Serge lives and in the other Serge dies. The one he lived in is set on a course that inherently leads to a ruined future, undoing the work that Crono did. But that work was only undone in one dimension, not both.

Don't you think if a life and death situation caused the split there would only be the two?

Serge living or dying didn't create the dimensions, it was that 50/50 chance. We see from CT that normally changes to the timeline cause the "old" future to cease to exist. Here something different happened: the change wasn't enough to cause the old future to cease to exist, but it was enough to cause a new future to come into existence.

It says his future was split in twain, not the dimensions. By that it simply means that in one world his future was to die and in another his future was to live.

Now admittedly, most people approach the issue of dimensions supposing what we might call a Standard Model of dimensional splits; that is, how dimensions are usually split in most science fiction. Such a model isn't stated in CC (though neither is it excluded), but I am curious; are you aware of this standard model?

Allow me to illustrate; Bob gets up in the morning and ponders if he should have toast or cereal for breakfast. Ultimately, he decided on toast. But... he could have decided to have cereal for breakfast instead. The standard model of multiple dimensions would generally state that both actually happened; in one dimension he had one breakfast, and another dimension was created where he had the other. The splitting of the dimensions was at that moment, however, and the future time of both those dimensions would be different (one might almost say that alternate dimensions are really just alternate timelines).

But that aside, returning to the issue of Dimensions in CC (which may or may not conform to the Standard Model), no. Something can't be said to have split if it was never together to begin with. The futures had to have been the same future if they later split.


Beyond all that, there are a lot more indications that the dimensional split occured when serge lived or died.

   According to the shaman,
   that's right...
   Someone that's not supposed
   to be in this world that's
   the link to a world that was
   severed 10 years ago...
   The missing piece of the puzzle.

   What has been the significance
   of your existence up until now?
   On that ominous day 10 years
   ago, the boundary of space and
   time was torn, and part of me,
   in fact, died...

   Where even angels lose
   their way...
   Ten years ago, you died
   at this very spot.
   There's no mistake.
   You drowned.
   The truth is, this world,
   in which you are still
   alive, is the irregularity...
   This is the false reality!

   Now, go to the place where time
   became divided and weave the
   threads of time together again...
   Chrono Trigger!

Additionally, consider all those things between the two dimensions that are different; you will find that every single iota of change occured after 1010; it is curious that the dimensions would have split thousands of years in the past if there was no divergence between the two. Also note Earth Dragon Isle and Water Dragon Isle; those two islands underwent drastic changes resulting from their respective dragon gods not being present; those changes began in 1010. Why did the respective dragon's disappear?

For that we have to turn to the Ultimania Interview: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania_Interview.html

Question: Why do Lynx, Harle and the Six Dragon Gods exist in only one of Home World and Another World?

Answer: Regarding the Six Dragon Gods, originally they existed in two dimensions, but it was made such that each in either word was destroyed. As for Lynx and Harle, there were two of them but Lynx and Harle disappeared in the Dead Sea in Home World.

Indeed, in that interview with Kato we find a few other interesting bits as they relate to the dimensions:

Question: What could be the reason that Miguel was stuck in the Dead Sea? And, were there two of him in existence?

Answer: 14 years ago when he entered the Sea of Eden, he was bewitched. By the knowledge of the future, by the powers of FATE. Perhaps he was overwhelmed in the sea of information, perhaps he became one with Chronopolis. When the world separated into two, of course, there were two of him. The one who was in Chronopolis, was eliminated by FATE, I'm afraid.

Now let us flip the issue around: What evidence is there that the Dimensional Split occured way back in 12,000ish BC?

[Lord Chrono]

  When did this sorry tale
   all begin...?
   Was it 10 years ago, when
   you almost drowned here?
   Or was it 14 years ago, when
   you were wounded by that
   panther demon that attacked
   you...
   ...resulting in you being
   carried to Chronopolis where
   you came into contact with
   FATE and the Frozen Flame...?
   Or perhaps it was even 2,400
   years in the future, when the
   Time Crash hurled Chronopolis
   back to prehistoric times?
   Or even it could have been
   12,000 B.C., when an ancient
   magical kingdom met its end
   after trying to use Lavos...?

   Each is close to being
   correct...
   And yet, at the same time,
   so far from the right answer!
   The true beginning was during
   the destruction of the ancient
   Kingdom of Zeal!
   As the palace collapsed around
   her, Princess Schala was sucked
   into a dimensional vortex along
   with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
   Schala and Lavos became unified
   into one even more powerful
   entity that would evolve into
   the Devourer of Time.
   Filled with the hatred and
   sadness of Lavos, half of
   Schala's mind became set on
   destroying all of existence.
   Yet at the same time, the
   other half of her mind
   desired to save the universe
   and to be rescued herself.
   As Schala fell through the
   time gate in this condition,
   she heard your crying
   echoing through time...
   That is when her story and
   yours began to intertwine...
   It is also when the past and
   the future began to intersect,
   and when the world became
   divided into two...

This was what origionally got me thinking it took place in 12,000 BC.

After a long and interesting debate on this, I must say you have proven your point.  You have presented info on several levels to make the truth known and I thank you for that.  After reading your last post I can safly say I was wrong.  Thank you for clearing this up as I would hate to have misunderstood a part to the story of my favorite series.

~Lord Chrono~