Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre / CT Cast after Chrono Cross

[Eket]

CC leaves a lot of things to the player, in terms of figuring shit out. While that doesn't have to be a bad thing, it can quite frustrating. I agree with Captain B. Even if they make another chrono game, it will most likely not answer a whole lot of questions.

Kato does state that he left some things for another story. It was in one of the interviews i think ( was about a question from chrono trigger. I just can't find it again ). I really hope they cover at least that much. You can't really rely on a 5+ year old interview though....

[Prince Janus]

 hmmm... you know what...   he also said he'd like to see another adventure with Magus in it (said this after CC, at that.)

[maggiekarp]

[The Rise of Poore/Fall of Guardia] was included in the game for a reason, you know.

ITT: We don't understand the plot to CC.

Alright Trippy, how and why did the Fall of Guardia happen?

It's been years, I can't remember all the names of things but I remember the general gist of the story.

Chronopolis goes back in time. FATE knows that the CT gang poses a threat to him because he's doing experiments with the whatchamacallit thorn of Lavos or whatever. Luckily enough, Serge and his Dad pop up there after crashing through the sea of time on their raft, and FATE starts the process of stealing his Dad's body. Unfortunately for him though, Serge also accidentally locks the thorn away from Fate by touching it and activating the Prometheus Lock.

Zoom forward a little bit. Serge's dad has turned into Lynx, and FATE sees a prime opportunity to eliminate the core CT gang in the growing nation of Porre. Lynx travels there in the calm months of the whosawatsit strait over to Porre, bearing a metric assfuck of futuristic weaponry that Chronopolis brought with it into the past. Porre, thus outfitted with powerful weaponry and with ranks upon ranks of powerful warriors(Remember, Norris and Grobyc aren't actually very special in and of themselves, they are pretty average representatives of a "regular" Porre trooper at this point) and Lynx coerces the Porre leader to attack Guardia and claim it for his own. Porre easily trumps everything Guardia can possibly throw at them, and wins the country easily. And with an army of Grobycs and equivalent warriors on their side, not even Chrono and Marle can deal with that shit for very long. They take over, and one of FATE's biggest threats is now gone. In addition, he now essentially has an entire two countries' worth of armies under his control. Add in the fact that Lynx goes and personally kills Lucca, and that's the Triple Crown.

Is this correct, or a theory that's cool with everyone else?

[MeshGearFox]

CC leaves a lot of things to the player, in terms of figuring shit out. While that doesn't have to be a bad thing, it can quite frustrating. I agree with Captain B. Even if they make another chrono game, it will most likely not answer a whole lot of questions.

Yeah, but if everything was answered, then there wouldn't be all of these discussions ABOUT figuring stuff out, and then where would the fun be? It's the unsanswered stuff that makes the settings feel really alive.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

The events of Guardia falling may not even occur in the Ideal Timeline.  There's no telling.

[Thought]

Is this correct, or a theory that's cool with everyone else?

Sorry Maggikarp, that is more of a fan fiction than a theory.

For one, there is no indication that FATE saw Crono & Co as a threat. Secondly, CC clearly states that FATE was controling the inhabitants of El Nido in order to minimize changes to the timeline; if it was trying to minimize changes, it wouldn't then turn around and purposely cause major changes to the timeline, especially if such a change might endanger its own creation.

Secondly, there is no indication that Porre received technology from El Nido (again, FATE would have had a vested interest in preventing this). To note, Grobyc is actually unique. The project ended with him (and the death of Luccia's brother).

Elements are more likely to have influenced Porre's power, but even those are a bit dubious.

The Fall of Guardia most likely occured either in the intermidate timeline between CT (when everything was hunky-dorry) and CC (after the Time Crash) or as an unintentional result of El Nido being present in the past. Remember, the Acacia Dragoons originated in the Porrean region but moved to El Nido. That is a shift in the balance of power right there, possibly being enough to cause the rise of Porre.

[Kodokami]

Ipso facto, meeny moe ... MAGICO! A thread has been revived!

I know the "Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre" thing has been beaten senseless but I've been reviewing a lot lately. The following are simply a few points I've made connecting CT with RD, and suggesting how Dalton could overwhelm Guardia. These assumptions may be exaggerated, seeing as how CC has overwritten RD's canon, but c'est la vie.

~~~

So we know from CT:DS that Dalton is the perpetrator behind the rise of Porre. Let's ignore the fact that Crono and co. have beaten Dalton multiple times and as such beating him again should be a piece of cake. For one thing, no one knows Dalton is still alive, especially Crono (when Dalton fell into the Golem portal, Crono was "dead"). So if anything, Dalton at least has the element of surprise... But of course, this has been covered before.

Jumping ahead to RD: The general consensus is that Crono is still dead, correct? This is because the Chrono Trigger is intact, and Lucca wants to bury the Frozen Flame "at her old friend's grave" (NOTE: I believe this is during side story, so I'm not sure how much of it can be taken for granted). Also, has Lavos been defeated in this timeline? Lavos is mentioned only once, when Gil is suggesting a suitable host for Kid (again, during a side story, but this would suggest Lavos is still alive). If Lavos is still alive, Schala would not merge with its defeated form, the Day of Lavos would still occur, and Belthasar would again arrive in a ruined future. I suspect that Marle and Lucca would be heartbroken in having failed at saving both Crono and the world. Thus, with Crono out of the way, and Marle and Lucca incapacitated, Dalton can storm Guardia unhindered and without notice.

I know this relies on speculation, and doesn't explain much. If Lavos lives, then what of Queen Zeal? The Black Omen? And how does CC fit in if Crono lives in that timeline?

I don't know. I just felt like doing some analysis.

[maggiekarp]

I was curious, does Guardia fall in both dimensions in CC? Supposedly Dalton knew about the Elements and used those, along with knowledge of advanced technology and general scheming.

[Acacia Sgt]

I was curious, does Guardia fall in both dimensions in CC? Supposedly Dalton knew about the Elements and used those, along with knowledge of advanced technology and general scheming.

The Fall of Guardia happened in 1005 AD, that's pre-split, so it happened in both.

[utunnels]

NOTE: I believe this is during side story, so I'm not sure how much of it can be taken for granted

I believe that is told in the secret passage before they fight Lynx, so it is canonial in RD.

[Kodokami]

Ah, thanks utunnels. I definitely need to do a play through of Radical Dreamers again sometime soon. I know some of the side stories I never even finished!

I was curious, does Guardia fall in both dimensions in CC? Supposedly Dalton knew about the Elements and used those, along with knowledge of advanced technology and general scheming.

I think a bigger question would be, Does Guardia fall before the introduction of El Nido (i.e. before the Time Crash)?

[Acacia Sgt]

I think a bigger question would be, Does Guardia fall before the introduction of El Nido (i.e. before the Time Crash)?

I'd say it does. In RD Guardia still fell despite lacking the elements CC would later add. And the ending FMV of the PSX port of CT depicted that before CC was released.

Also, there is the fact that FATE allowed the Dragoons (or at the very least the Radius, Garai, and Viper trio) to go to the mainland. FATE never allowed the natives to leave the islands since their involvement with the outside world could change history as it knows it. With a non-existant El Nido it would mean the Viper Clan never left Porre, so it makes sens for FATE to allow them to go back. Which means there was indeed a war in the El Nido less 1005 AD.

And since RD proved Porre could win without the involvement of Elements and the like, then it's highly likely that was the case over here too.

[utunnels]

In RD, perhaps Vera was a key character who they never developed deeper.
As the magic chancellor of Porre, it seems they did found some relics like it is mentioned in CC (if Dalton's interference was not their original idea).
 

[Acacia Sgt]

In RD, perhaps Vera was a key character who they never developed deeper.
As the magic chancellor of Porre, it seems they did found some relics like it is mentioned in CC (if Dalton's interference was not their original idea).
 

On the other hand, said relics could've been more likely to be Zealian artifacts rather than Dragonian. Considering RD was also made for the SNES, unless they already had those ideas and took long for them to use them, it doesn't look like it would refer to the latter especially if they could've used them back then.

Even the Einlanzer was just another of Melchior's swords instead of being Dragonian in origin, so I see it very unlikely.

[maggiekarp]

Well, it was revealed at the end of RD that Viper Manor was built on intact Zeal ruins, so...

Mostly I just think somewhere along development, Kato forgot that Dalton was a comic-relief villain, or read too many "DALTON IS AN EFFECTIVE RAPIST!" fanfics.

(Oh yeah, utunnels, do Japanese fans ever mistake or theorize Vera as Marle-in-disguise? I'm curious since it's probably just the way she's written in English that gives that vibe)

[edit]WAIT UTUNNELS I HAVE A BETTER QUESTION from This Page!

...Riddel, told them the truth of the "Frozen Flame" She said the treasure is handed down from the ancient magical kingdom, which had the power to change the history of mankind. Riddel asked them to get the "Frozen Flame" back, and so they headed to the ruins of the magical kingdom, which lies beneath the mansion.

In the Demiforce translation she says it was kept in a Northern Kingdom for hundreds of years until it fell... Is it possible they mixed up Guardia and Zeal?