Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

[SilentMartyr]

I checked out that code and it is for the fight with the Mammon Machine after Zeals first form. But what is interesting is that Frog gains life when you attack the Machine. I think it is the only time where that happens, can someone confirm that for me?

[razor's edge]

Alright, maybe that's not the exact word I was looking for, but at the very least he could be...I dunno...Covering up how badly he was beaten by simply tossing it all of as it being the fact that the Masamune was somehow more powerful that time...

Or the Masamune could actually be stronger that time, and he meant what he said about it. Now we're going back and forth.

[GreenGannon]

1) Dreamstone absorbs a freakish amount of Lavos energy

Wouldn't it be fun to find a ratio of lbs of Dreamstone: Amount of Lavos energy?

2) Perhaps Lavos energy refers to energy produced by Lavos, not the energy of Lavos, hm let me explain that... Example: Go find a sword that absorbs electricity. Now go find a person who surrounds themselves with this power and go kick their tail. Now go to a power plant and see how much damage that sword does. (not the best example, but it will do i guess)

Sort of like a lightbulb. It's primary energy is light, but it also radiates heat.

3) Magus's life isnt that long, so a legend couldnt really exist, unless there was another legend about an unbeatable Mystic before Magus's arrival.

The Masamune is a magic sword. Those usually get a legend attached to them pretty quickly.

My odd thought: Perhaps Magus doesnt use Lavos energy at all, perhaps Lavos energy hurts him. The only other example of this I see is when Lavos drains him of his techniques at the Ocean Palace.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def.

Yea I like that idea. Perhaps the Masamune/Mammon Machine can absorb magic existing externally (in terms of the body). Not really absorb so much as slowly draw from (otherwise no magic attack could hurt M.Machine unless it overloaded it). Eh, people know what I mean.

So, it would absorb surplus energy that isn't anchored to a living entity?

[Faulce]

If Magus was affected by the Masamune just because it was made of Dreamstone, then he would've known it could do that already. Instead, after defeating him in his castle, he is suprised. The sword was made of Dreamstone before it broke and after it was fixed. That is why Frog is the reason the Masamune worked so well on Magus.

Thats not a very stable conclusion. "This happend...so it was Frog!!!!"

nah. Besides you seem to be underestimating Cyrus's will to slay Magus. The Masamune is a magical sword with magical properties, so it doesnt really matter who uses it, if they know what they are doing, they will gain great power.

New thought: Remeber the Amulet Schala gave to Janus? Assume it is made of Dreamstone. Now assume (from Schala's statement "it will protect you") that it is full of Lavos energy. Now assume that over time Magus absorbed this energy from the Amulet into his own body. Now part of his power is from Lavos. Allow me to go further:
1) The Masamune absorbs some of the Lavos Energy within him, thus weakening him.
2) At the Ocean Palace, Magus attacks Lavos, yet...nothing happens at all, he uses his best attack (where a red object, similar looking to the ruby knife is involved) and nothing happens.
3) Perhaps Lavos energy is involved in the attack, meaning it cant hurt Lavos.
4) Lavos absorbs all the "tainted" (Lavos energy affected) powers from Magus, leaving him with a few simple innate skills.
5) Lavos tainted skills never return because they are not innate. The only example from Magus that I can think of is Geyser.

This is, of course, assuming that the Amulet is made of Dreamstone, infused with Lavos energy, and involved at all.

[razor's edge]

If Magus was affected by the Masamune just because it was made of Dreamstone, then he would've known it could do that already. Instead, after defeating him in his castle, he is suprised. The sword was made of Dreamstone before it broke and after it was fixed. That is why Frog is the reason the Masamune worked so well on Magus.

Thats not a very stable conclusion. "This happend...so it was Frog!!!!"

nah. Besides you seem to be underestimating Cyrus's will to slay Magus. The Masamune is a magical sword with magical properties, so it doesnt really matter who uses it, if they know what they are doing, they will gain great power.

Masa & Mune themselves say that the true power of the sword comes from the wielder. Frog's the wielder. I'd say that's a fact.

And what do the people of 600 AD know about the Masamune anyway? Do they know it's made of Dreamstone? No. Do they know it was made originally to take out the Mammon Machine and free the Enlightened Ones from Lavos? No. All they know about it is its name, and that it has powers. Not once in the game do you hear a townsperson, soldier, or anyone who mentions the Masamune say what it's actually for or what it can do. They just say "The legendary sword Masamune etc etc". How do we know Cyrus knew how to use the Masamune to its fullest? Frog accidentally unlocked its full power when laying Cyrus's spirit to rest. Even Masa and Mune didn't know how to use it to its fullest until then. If the beings who essentially are the sword don't know everything about it, then how can you just assume that Cyrus knows everything about it?

In the Magus fight, Frog could have been focusing on defeating Magus so much that he was using the power of the sword to weaken Magus's shield without even knowing he was doing it.

Just because a sword has magical properties doesn't mean the person using it knows what those properties are or how to use them.

Also, when Cyrus and Glenn encounter Magus and Ozzie, that happens at Denadoro, right? If that's the case, then Cyrus just got the sword and definitely wouldn't have had the time to figure out how to use it's power.

Finally, I didn't say anything close to "This happend...so it was Frog!!!!". I provided various quotes and comparisons and reasons from the game for why I believe what I stated. So instead of just saying

nah

how about you provide founded reasons from data in the game to argue against my point?

[Faulce]

Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!

A Hero's power comes from within. Ok.... that says nothing about the power of the sword coming from the wielder, you are twisting the words around. You assume that this conversation has something to do with the swords transformation and not the transformation within Frog, I didnt really catch on that you looked at it that way.
At the end of the conversation Masa and Mune power themselves up and recombine into the sword - - - THEN it is flowing with strength and vigor, the transformation of the sword occurred AFTER the conversation. I think you missed that.

[razor's edge]

Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!

A Hero's power comes from within. Ok.... that says nothing about the power of the sword coming from the wielder, you are twisting the words around. You assume that this conversation has something to do with the swords transformation and not the transformation within Frog, I didnt really catch on that you looked at it that way.
At the end of the conversation Masa and Mune power themselves up and recombine into the sword - - - THEN it is flowing with strength and vigor, the transformation of the sword occurred AFTER the conversation. I think you missed that.

Yes, but Masa and Mune couldn't transform the sword without the transformation within Frog. Explanatory metaphor time--Masa and Mune needed Frog to unlock the door so they could open it.

[sarua]

I think that most of you are very stuborn(sp?). razor`s edge has more then enought evidences from the game that masamune was hurting magus because Frog was using it and no, you can`t agre with that, mainly because your opinion is diferent and you can`t accept that it`s not right one.

But Frog wants to defeat Lavos, and it doesn't do anything there.

Can`t you see diference betwen magus and lavos in frog`s eyes? Oh ye Lavos will destroy world in witch Frog will never live and no one ho is precious to him will die because of that. Ofcourse he is hero so he fights Lavos. And here goes Magus ho has killed his best friend and techer in front of him(probably) and is treat to all guardia(ho knows how many precous people to Frog were killed due to magus) and even more he turned him into frog! I wonder which one you would hate more if you were in Frog`s place.

[SilentMartyr]

Okay, Razor you are making sense to me now. I just put everything together in my head. I forgot that in the legend that only the Hero can weild the Masamune, so when Frog finshed up at Cyrus's grave he shows that he is the Hero.

The only question I have left is why was the legend directed at Magus? That is the only thing that doesn't make any sense to me.

[razor's edge]

Okay, Razor you are making sense to me now. I just put everything together in my head. I forgot that in the legend that only the Hero can weild the Masamune, so when Frog finshed up at Cyrus's grave he shows that he is the Hero.

The only question I have left is why was the legend directed at Magus? That is the only thing that doesn't make any sense to me.

The thing about the legend is that we don't know what the legend actually says about the sword. We just know that there is a legend, but there isn't a single person in 600 AD who tells you what the legend actually is. But the thing about legend is that you follow legend back far enough and you'll eventually find some truth. So, if we follow back what we know about the Masamune, it was made in Zeal by Melchior, and its purpose was to destroy the Mammon Machine. So if some of the Zealians who survived the fall of Zeal knew about the Masamune, then knowledge of it could be handed down til' it became the legend that we hear of. But, like I said, we don't know what the legend actually is.

Why the legend would pertain to Magus, I don't know--maybe the legend says a powerful Mystic, or powerful wizard, and the people just assumed it meant Magus.

I'm gonna see if I can find the NPC quotes about the Masamune, I'll post them later tonight if I do.

[V_Translanka]

Perhaps the legend is connected not exactly with Magus, but with Lavos. I think this is why Magus expects the Masamune to help him defeat Lavos.

Or the Masamune could actually be stronger that time, and he meant what he said about it. Now we're going back and forth.

Well...We don't have to be, I wasn't saying that the interpretation that Magus actually meant it wasn't true. I was just stating an opposing and just as justifiable arguement to said interpretation.

New thought: Remeber the Amulet Schala gave to Janus? Assume it is made of Dreamstone.

It...Doesn't really look like it's made of Dreamstone...and...that's a pretty big assumption regardless...

I think that most of you are very stuborn(sp?). razor`s edge has more then enought evidences from the game that masamune was hurting magus because Frog was using it and no, you can`t agre with that, mainly because your opinion is diferent and you can`t accept that it`s not right one.

I think you're misinterpreting arguements over theories (the only real way to advance upon said theories) as being some kind of wierd personal attacks...We're just shootin' the breeze here, guy...Workin' the kinks out, as they say...Also, I think you need to, like, spellcheck, or something...What are you, foreign?

. And here goes Magus ho has killed his best friend and techer in front of him(probably) and is treat to all guardia(ho knows how many precous people to Frog were killed due to magus) and even more he turned him into frog!

Well, even through the bad grammer, I still understand most of what you say, buck-o. Now, where do you get the teacher thing? Also, Magus killing who-knows-how-many is all assumption. We don't know if he actually killed anything or if there was just killing done in his name. All we know is that Magus is basically using the Mystics so that he can summon and thusly confront Lavos. I agree though that Frog has more personal ambitions when it comes to Magus rather than Lavos...So, no more hissy-fits.

[razor's edge]

Perhaps the legend is connected not exactly with Magus, but with Lavos. I think this is why Magus expects the Masamune to help him defeat Lavos.

Possibly, because it wouldn't make sense for it to be literally connected to Magus. But if Magus thought the Masamune would help him against Lavos, then wouldn't he have taken the pieces of the Masamune after it broke? Of course, his plan for attacking Cyrus and Glenn could have been to get the Masamune in the first place, but after it broke, could've decided it would be useless broken.

If Magus wanted the Masamune to use against Lavos, though, then it would make sense to take the broken Masamune to try and find a way to use it, even though it is broke.

even through the bad grammer

The irony is killing me. It's spelled grammar.  

[sarua]

Also, I think you need to, like, spellcheck, or something...What are you, foreign?

Yes, i am from Lithuania(i doubt that you know where it is). I understand almost everything what you write but when it comes to write myself it`s a bit problematic

I think you're misinterpreting arguements over theories (the only real way to advance upon said theories) as being some kind of wierd personal attacks...We're just shootin' the breeze here, guy...Workin' the kinks out, as they say...

Well it`s analysis forum and here you just going back and forth. I would understand if such thread were in general forum, but  imho such style doesn`t fit here.

Well, even through the bad grammer, I still understand most of what you say, buck-o. Now, where do you get the teacher thing? Also, Magus killing who-knows-how-many is all assumption. We don't know if he actually killed anything or if there was just killing done in his name. All we know is that Magus is basically using the Mystics so that he can summon and thusly confront Lavos. I agree though that Frog has more personal ambitions when it comes to Magus rather than Lavos...So, no more hissy-fits.

Hm i always thought that Cyrus was teacher to Frog but know that you asked i realyd don`t know from where i got that idea but it makes small diference.
Well Magus is leader of Mystics so it`s very logical to hate him for what Mystics did.

[Faulce]

Masa: Heh heh.
Mune: That's it! That was special!
Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
Mune: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
Masa: It's thrasin' time!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor. Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!! Cyrus, I promise to fulfill your wishes! 'Tis a sad farewell! Onward, all!

A Hero's power comes from within. Ok.... that says nothing about the power of the sword coming from the wielder, you are twisting the words around. You assume that this conversation has something to do with the swords transformation and not the transformation within Frog, I didnt really catch on that you looked at it that way.
At the end of the conversation Masa and Mune power themselves up and recombine into the sword - - - THEN it is flowing with strength and vigor, the transformation of the sword occurred AFTER the conversation. I think you missed that.

Yes, but Masa and Mune couldn't transform the sword without the transformation within Frog. Explanatory metaphor time--Masa and Mune needed Frog to unlock the door so they could open it.

Ok, After reading over everything, I've come to accept your theory as the most likely explanation. So, instead of debating with you about it, I've decided to add to it.
In my opinion there is a special relationship between the Masamune and Frog - its almost as if the Masamune's condition represents Frog's feelings inside.
The Masamune is of normal power - Cyrus and Glenn fight Magus
The Masamune breaks, loses all power - Cyrus is killed, Glenn's dreams shattered, Glenn faces identity loss as he hides who he is from even his closest friends (Leene for example)
The Masamune is restored - Frog gains the courage to fight Magus again.
The Masamune powers up - Frog remembers who he is, who Cyrus is, and what he is fighting for.
The Masamune finds its true identity - Frog finds peace with Cyrus, there is no longer an identity split, there is no Frog - only Glenn

[V_Translanka]

I was just kidding about the spellcheck thingy sarua...I can read people's location tags...Lithuania? Isn't that in Europe or something? Who knows? What am I? A geography major or something? No. No, I am most certainly not. And yes, razor's edge, I'm not a spelling major either.

And, I dunno, sarua, I didn't see it as you were having problems with the back-and-forth, I thought you were saying things about how other people just wouldn't give in to the other side of the arguement...Perhaps I misread. Missread? Miss Red? Y'know what I mean.

And, Faulce, that all makes sense, but I was wondering then, where does the happenings of the Masamune in CC fit into that?