A debate my friend and I had about the "original, unchanged" time-line *Spoilers

[Masa]

My friend and I had this debate about a battle between Lavos and Magus; who would win? I mentioned that if Magus could beat Lavos, the Apocalypse in 1999 wouldn't happen, because Magus would have summoned Lavos in 600 AD, and defeated him right there and then, thus, the Apocalypse wouldn't have happened. However, since the Apocalypse in 1999 did happen, Magus obviously failed at killing Lavos, thus dieing (Or losing to Lavos).

My buddy countered that Magus didn't fight Lavos, that Crono and his crew interrupted Magus summoning Lavos, thus we can't accurately say whether or not Magus could have defeated Lavos on his own. I then reminded him that if he could have defeated Lavos on his own, the Apocalypse in 1999 wouldn't have happened, and thus the Crono crew would have no reason to try to change the past (which would have led them to the year 600 AD).

My buddy then pointed out that if Magus was supposed to lose if the Crono crew didn't show up to screw up the summoning, why didn't the world become destroyed in 600 AD. I mentioned that just because Magus woke up Lavos doesn't mean the world will be entirely destroyed; for example, in 12,000 BC, only the floating islands were destroyed.

He then mentioned that if Crono didn't go back in time, then Zeal would have gone on to absorb Lavos indefinitely, thus the Zeal Kingdom would still be in power in the present time. I commented that even without Crono's interference, the fall of Zeal was invertible, because if it didn't happen, Janus (AKA Magus) wouldn't have been sent to 600 AD, which leads him to summon Lavos to fight (Which he would lose the fight against, as proven in the 1999 Apocalypse). He asked me how the events would have unfolded without the Crono Crews interference, and I replied I dunno.

He exclaimed that was his point. Since the subject of time-traveling is so innately complicated, discussing what-ifs are pointless; that you can not make educated guesses on how the time-line would have been without the Crono Crews interference, and he added that, Crono was destined to time-travel. I pointed out that one of the many themes in Chrono Trigger and Cross was that man, not Gods, were responsible for their own destiny, that they and they alone have the ability to change their path in life; that time is not set in stone. He countered with that since Crono Trigger is a video game, that Crono will always time-travel, and thus, it is indeed predetermined. I honestly had no counter against that, 'cept, "Gah, I hate the 'it's just a video-game' argument...".

In short, the two disagreements I have with him is:

1. He believes you cannot make educated guesses on how the original time-line would have went without the Crono Crews interference.

2. And he believes Crono's destiny was in fact, predetermined.

So, experts of the Chrono series, what's your say in all this?

PS, I posted this at gamefaqs, and one of the posters mentioned the Masamune.  To quote him:

"Interesting theory, but how would you explain the already existing Masamune loop? The sword with Melchior's name engraved would never have ended up in the past if it weren't for Crono. Therefore Cyrus would not have been able to fight Masa and Mune for the sword before Crono and team got to it because there'd be no sword."

Unfortunately, it's been years since I last played the game, and I can't think of a way to counter that statement.

[Vehek]

When Crono came to 12,000 B.C., the Masamune already existed in the form of the Ruby Knife.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ruby_Knife.html
One possible explanation (stated in the article) is that Melchior was able to create a complete sword in the original timeline.

[ZeaLitY]

This is simple. At the new Ocean Palace incident, Magus DOES get a chance to fight Lavos, and he's soundly defeated. Schala then transports him and the remaining party out of the Ocean Palace. Since this happens after the summoning would have in Magus's life, we can say that Magus was not strong enough to defeat Lavos even if properly summoned.

[Masa]

That explains both the Masamune problem and the outcome between Magus and Lavos.

I checked around this site, and it looks like you guys (Or, at the very least, Zeality) agree that you can make educated guesses about how the time-line would work without Crono and Co. interference.

So, I suppose the only question left is: Is the universe in the Chrono series predetermined, or ultimately controlled by it's inhabitants?

[V_Translanka]

He exclaimed that was his point. Since the subject of time-traveling is so innately complicated, discussing what-ifs are pointless; that you can not make educated guesses on how the time-line would have been without the Crono Crews interference, and he added that, Crono was destined to time-travel. I pointed out that one of the many themes in Chrono Trigger and Cross was that man, not Gods, were responsible for their own destiny, that they and they alone have the ability to change their path in life; that time is not set in stone. He countered with that since Crono Trigger is a video game, that Crono will always time-travel, and thus, it is indeed predetermined. I honestly had no counter against that, 'cept, "Gah, I hate the 'it's just a video-game' argument...".

Yeah, he's just being ridiculous because you actually make a good, solid point that's really irrefutable. You can counter his statement anyways though with, "No, he doesn't because you can just walk around the Millennial Fair forever & never have to go talk to Lucca. Or you could even DIE before that in the Guardia forest." Where's his "destiny" for those situations? You can't just say it's "destiny" because the plot is a story and that never changes...that's...well, it's stupid.

1. He believes you cannot make educated guesses on how the original time-line would have went without the Crono Crews interference.

I don't see why not...His uneducated guesses don't sound much better...

I never even knew people thought there was a Masamune loop...Oh, GameFAQs, you're an absolute CARD!

Oh yeah, and "Crono & Co." c'mon! Jump on the bandwagon! "Crono Crew" grates against my inner ear, I swear...>_>

[ZeaLitY]

We just extrapolate what happened in the beginning. Lavos took out the Tyrano Lair whether Crono's around or not. Zeal falls whether he's around or not. Magus disappears and the Mystics call things off whether he's around or not.

[killercactus]

I don't really understand your friend's argument at all.  Actually, I think we know exactly what would happen without Crono's interference.  The 2300 AD, ruined future period exists - period.  You see it first hand, you're able to walk around in it, fight mutants, race Johnny, climb Death Peak, etc.  That era is a testament to what happens without Crono time traveling, and also a testament that a time line exists in which Crono (more accurately, Marle) never time traveled at all.

In fact, we even know that a time line existed that included LAVOS not being present.  It's the Reptite time line, in which Dinopolis was formed.  We know that Dinopolis existed, because the Dragon God was created there, which exists in Chrono Cross. 

But, in typing my first answer, I came across a problem that I never considered before.  We know a timeline exists in which Crono and Co. did not time travel.  The events that led to them time traveling can be traced back to Crono running into Marle at the Millennial Fair.  My question then becomes "What changed in the new timeline that caused Crono to run into Marle?" or, from a different point of view "Why didn't Crono run into Marle in the original timeline?"

*Speculation alert*

One possible answer is that Crono did run into Marle in the original timeline, and the events transpired the same way, except that the Entity did not warp Marle back to 600 AD.  But I hate the "the Entity did it" response, so I'll try another one.

Another is that, in the original timeline, Marle didn't have the Pendant.  Maybe it was never passed down the Guardia line.  Crono and Marle still run into each other, and still go to the Telepod experiment, but the Pendant isn't there to cause the reaction that sends Marle back.  Then, in 2300, when Belthasar finds the ruined future, he foresees what needs to happen.  He finishes the Epoch, takes it back to 12000 BC, and tells Schala to pass the pendant on.  Then he travels back to 2300 and starts building Poyozo dolls for Death Peak...

[V_Translanka]

But the Entity is what's behind it all in the first place...so it makes the most sense that it started things by placing the Gate at the Millennial Fair to be opened. I don't see why that would be a negative answer in any way. It makes sense, it's simple, uses information we're told and it answers the question. What more can you ask for? Why create such an overly elaborate answer...?

[ZeaLitY]

Lucca speculates at one point that it wasn't just the pendant and Telepod that caused Marle to go back to 600 A.D., but that something else may have been responsible.

The Entity's first real action is transporting the Gurus to 600 A.D., 1000 A.D., and 2300 A.D., and Janus to 600 A.D. Since this action is ridiculously contrary to Lavos's plans (all the Gurus helped Crono defeat him), it's unlikely Lavos did this. Lavos probably threw them into temporal distortions, and the Entity took it from there.

[killercactus]

But the Entity is what's behind it all in the first place...so it makes the most sense that it started things by placing the Gate at the Millennial Fair to be opened. I don't see why that would be a negative answer in any way. It makes sense, it's simple, uses information we're told and it answers the question. What more can you ask for? Why create such an overly elaborate answer...?

Just because I like to be speculative and overly elaborate.... I'm just a very logic-oriented person that likes to have a logical answer, and the Entity seems like a cop-out.  However, it's probably correct.  Lucca's speculation is very strong evidence IMO, as she seems to be one of the "never wrong" characters.  I just like trying to find a "non-Entity" solution to everything....

Even so, I'm OK with the Entity guiding characters throughout time (guiding the Gurus to their destinations, guiding Marle to 600AD), but I'm not as ok with it creating gates.  Like, if the Entity knew to guide the Gurus to those respective places in time, why didn't it just create gates for them to go there?  But, there is the gate in the forest during the campout, and the gate in the forest in 1000 AD that just happens to lead to 2300 AD and happens to be stumbled upon by Crono and Co. that would need an explanation...

[Masa]

I don't really understand your friend's argument at all.  Actually, I think we know exactly what would happen without Crono's interference.  The 2300 AD, ruined future period exists - period.  You see it first hand, you're able to walk around in it, fight mutants, race Johnny, climb Death Peak, etc.  That era is a testament to what happens without Crono time traveling, and also a testament that a time line exists in which Crono (more accurately, Marle) never time traveled at all.

In fact, we even know that a time line existed that included LAVOS not being present.  It's the Reptite time line, in which Dinopolis was formed.  We know that Dinopolis existed, because the Dragon God was created there, which exists in Chrono Cross. 

That's exactly what I thought.  It isn't that we don't know what will happen in the "original" time-line (Or, as Zeality dubs it in some articles, the "Lavos" time-line).  We know what will happen.  We know the end results; Lavos wins.  It's like an equation we already know the answer to, and like an equation, we can work backwards from the answer to get a decent, educated guess on the events that led up to that point.

Well, it looks like my question has been answered.  Thanks for the information, and keep up the great work on the site.

[V_Translanka]

Why create such an overly elaborate answer...?

Just because I like to be speculative and overly elaborate.... I'm just a very logic-oriented person that likes to have a logical answer, and the Entity seems like a cop-out. However, it's probably correct.  Lucca's speculation is very strong evidence IMO, as she seems to be one of the "never wrong" characters.  I just like trying to find a "non-Entity" solution to everything....

Yeah, we know that the Entity is involved and is the force behind Crono & Co's adventure because of the 400 Year Reunion (and also the end where Marle & Lucca speak of the Entity again)...

Even so, I'm OK with the Entity guiding characters throughout time (guiding the Gurus to their destinations, guiding Marle to 600AD), but I'm not as ok with it creating gates.  Like, if the Entity knew to guide the Gurus to those respective places in time, why didn't it just create gates for them to go there?  But, there is the gate in the forest during the campout, and the gate in the forest in 1000 AD that just happens to lead to 2300 AD and happens to be stumbled upon by Crono and Co. that would need an explanation...

I think that the Entity still needed to rely on that specific timeframe when Marle was there using the Telepod in order to open the Gate. It was a unique situation that the Entity took advantage of by placing a Gate there to be opened (which could later be repeated anywhere necessary to move along Crono & Co's adventure once Lucca creates the Gate Key). So it's not like it had absolute power over everything, it was still mostly just guiding events along.

[Xenterex]

I came across a problem that I never considered before.  We know a timeline exists in which Crono and Co. did not time travel.  The events that led to them time traveling can be traced back to Crono running into Marle at the Millennial Fair.  My question then becomes "What changed in the new timeline that caused Crono to run into Marle?" or, from a different point of view "Why didn't Crono run into Marle in the original timeline

I'd say Crono does run into Marle in the original time line, and they go to lucca's sideshow.  Although the entity had a hand in guiding the crew to 600 AD at that particular instance, that doesn't mean that without its guidance their wouldn't have been a reaction at all.  I'd say there still was a reaction at the fair, and either it resulted in a time hole that lead Marle/Crono to an unwanted death timeline, (like they are ported directed to Lavos...) or the reaction itself was deadly, like an explosion.  So to alter that, the entity tampers with the reaction and focuses it to 600 AD to begin the chain of events of Chrono Trigger.

Either that, or there's some anti-paradox effect still enabled by the entity.  I know in past Chrono threads there's be talk about the "If Crono kills lavos, then the future no longer has a threat of Lavos and paradox, blah blah."  I surmise that beings outside the flow of time are able to either connect several timelines to get the effects needed to keep time itself intact, or the memories/dreams of the events are enough to keep the flow of events intact. 

Think of time as a train track, it has a start point, and an end point.  Along the way are toggles that slightly effect the direction of the train.  If a 'time conductor' then directs time travelers along consistent tracks in a particular railing of time events to keep the time flowing.  So regardless of what happens time-line wise,  once Crono and crew take the gate outside Gaurdia castle 1000 AD, the future they see at that point will still be destroyed by Lavos because that is the  time junction they took.  Later along the time rail, (after Lavos actually is defeated) then they can take a different junction at the future turn-off and see other events.  The only way to alter that then, is to either have something change where a junction leads (like the entity I suppose) or prevent that junction from being used at that particular time-frame.

[warmgun]

Maybe I forgot something because I haven't played the game in a while, but how do we know there is a timeline where Crono never time traveled?

[V_Translanka]

I think it's based on the idea that the Entity initiated everything so that Crono & Co. would see all of those events throughout its history/"memory"...