Author Topic: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?  (Read 8542 times)

Diabolicus

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 11:19:54 pm »
I'm no entirely sure that the Time Egg was designed that way. As Gaspar said upon handing it over to them, it would take a specific set of events to unlock its full potential, or something to that effect.

The purpose of the artifact, as I understand it, was to bring Crono back to life. Thusly, when the Chrono Trigger was finally activated it transported the party to the exact moment when they would be able to change what happened and prevent Crono from dieing in the first place. Since Schala didn't technically die as a result of the battle with Lavos during the Ocean Palace incident (for all that we know), I don't believe that putting a clone of Schala there and trying to take her out of that moment would do anything.

Then again, perhaps I got it all wrong. Why then, would Magus not have seized the opportunity to fulfill his quest? Perhaps, he knew something that the others did not.. that rescuing her at that moment would not have the desired outcome that Magus sought after.

GenesisOne

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2009, 11:42:36 pm »

Here's my theory on what Magus made of all this, based on Translation:

Quote from: Gaspar
The Chrono Trigger will have an effect equal to the effort you put into your search. No more, and no less.

The party put their efforts into saving Crono.  Magus simply saw the Chrono Trigger as a means to an end.  He wanted to use it to save Schala so he can destroy Lavos, but the team's efforts overtook his efforts (the amount of which is uncertain to me).

Fast forward.  Magus uses the Chrono Trigger at Death Peak and it shatters.  At first, nothing happens.

Quote from: Magus
......
Pitiful......
Unable to change even a single thing in the end……

He wasn't talking about Crono at all.  He was talking about his goal to bring back Schala and destroy Lavos.  Naturally, he was disappointed when he saw the team getting to save Crono while he was left high and dry and without his sister.  This would explain his animosity toward Crono afterward. 

That's how I perceived it to be, anyway.  What says you?

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 01:18:10 am »
I think he was talking about being able to revisit his former home, his sister, and even his younger self, yet still he became the Fiendlord. I don't think he was talking about Schala specifically, but was more selfish.  All this effort, all this power, and he couldn't change a single part of his past. It's ironic, because his words are self-defeating. By realizing he can't change his past, he's beginning to change his future.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 01:20:44 am by Mr Bekkler »

ShoeMagus

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2009, 02:12:57 am »
Now, I'm not too well read up on the current Time theories, so if I'm wrong or crazy then I apologize.

Wasn't it Schala who sends everybody (including Magus) OUT of the Ocean Palace when Lavos decided to blow Zeal up? If so, wouldn't pulling Schala out of the time stream be kind of like everybody in 600 giving up the search for Queen Leene because they found this younger, spunky look-alike wandering around the canyon?

Magus, finding himself back in Zeal, didn't seem to have a lot of reservations about messing with the timeline. To be fair however, he didn't change much, letting events progress in a similar fashion so that he might confront Lavos (who would have generated the same Gates sending young Janus and the three Gurus traveling through time). So he may have been somewhat conscious of the problems presented in affecting the way events have already played out. If he's aware of the possibility of invalidating his own existence, he may have known better than to try and save Schala then when this might have happened.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 02:20:45 am by ShoeMagus »

neo-fusion

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2009, 12:45:17 am »
One of the most ingenious moments in Chrono Trigger, in my opinion, occurs during the Death Peak Clone Replacement scene (starts at 1:30 in this vid) with Magus in the party. Notice how, just after he says "Save the hellos for later! We've got work to do!", he takes a moment to step back and brood?

I've always been fascinated with what, exactly, is going through Magus' mind at this moment, and I think the answer would reveal much about his character. When the team acquired the Chrono Trigger, did the thought cross his mind that he might seize it, get Norstein Bekkler to create a clone of Schala, and then ascend the mountain himself to achieve his goal of saving her, at Crono's expense? Now that the world's only Chrono Trigger has been expended, does he regret not doing so? Magus might therefore have developed a latent animosity toward Crono (explaining such charming comments as "You got whacked 'cuz you're weak!").

Given that Crono's life holds far less meaning to Magus than Schala's, it would seem to me that he didn't just run off with the Chrono Trigger precisely because he believed she was still alive. This couldn't just be a mere guess on his part -- I mean, he's giving up his one chance to pull her out of the time stream. This man has faith! Though pangs of uncertainty probably haunted him throughout the rest of the game.

Just thought I'd ponder aloud, because it's fun. See what can come out of a simple sprite animation and text box?

You have just given me a fabulous idea...

_Janus_

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2010, 01:07:58 pm »
So, let me see if I got the idea right.
The entirety of events of Chrono Cross could have been avoided if, instead of using the Trigger to save Crono's butt, Magus and the rest used it to save Schala?
So, the Dream Devourer wouldn't happen, rightey?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2010, 01:51:32 pm »
Perhaps... but I think it's unlikely.

Considering that after the Ocean Palace events, Schala ended up in the DBT, it would mean that if they had saved Schala in that moment, it would have been a TB, unlike Crono.

I think...

_Janus_

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2010, 02:05:31 pm »
a TB?
What is that?Sorry for n00bishness, I only recently got in real love with Chrono Trigger

FaustWolf

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2010, 12:01:45 am »
What an interesting line of investigation this has suddenly become! I never considered that before.

A "TB" is a "Time Bastard." It's a popular theory of how time travel works in the Chrono series. Check out how it works here:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Principles_of_Time_and_Dimensional_Travel.html

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2010, 12:08:20 am »
So yeah, it confirms it. Had Schala just died instead of being sent to the DBT, she could have been saved. But no, as traveling to the DBT is also a case for TTI and TB, Schala's fate was sealed.

_Janus_

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2010, 11:24:56 am »
hm, thanks for the explanation.
But, are you entirely sure that there wasn't a way to save poor Schala?

idioticidioms

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2010, 09:38:23 pm »
Actually, interestingly enough, you're all working under the same thought process: That Magus did not want to save Crono. What if he did want to save him? Magus has the personality type of a bitter and taciturn old soldier, so hides his feelings behind a wall of insults. You will notice that the only person he holds in high enough esteem to not do that to is his sister Schala.  Everyone else he cuts down with words. It is very literally impossible to be around somebody or a group of people such as Crono & Crew without having some of their natural good cheer and high spirits rub off on you and even further impossible to not start caring for them. Especially if you're still holding on to some part of the good side of your soul, which Magus is by pursuing his cause to bring Schala back to him.

You're also working under the idea that Magus missed his chance up there on Death Peak. Who's to say that that one Egg was all that Gaspar had created? Also, you're forgetting that if Schala were to be pulled out at that time, then the rest of the Crono crew would never made it back to safety, including Magus, which would make for a time paradox that would ultimately wipe out Janus and Crono and Crew and then Schala herself for being saved in such a way. Because you have to imagine that if she was pulled out by Magus in the future, she would not have been able to teleport him to safety, which would mean that he wouldn't be able to save her, yet he did. Kind of confusing when you think about it.

I'm sure these are all thoughts that flowed through his mind at the time and afterward. He probably thought it was a safe bet to continue on with Crono and Crew to defeat Lavos at that point and then, if that did not return Schala to him, he would figure it out after that point. He had already spent most his life to that point building his will towards Lavos' defeat.  Who knows, he might have even tried pursuing the Time Egg thing on his own afterward, though how he would manage to get to Gaspar without the gates and Epoch, is anyone's guess.

I think this fits the most, especially when you consider that Mystics/Demons put each other down all the time and are quite derogatory. This is their type of friendship, how they treat their friends, etc., if Mystics had friends, which one has to assume that they did. And, like the infamous relationship in DBZ between Vegita and Goku, it could be a competition thing. Magus got beat by Crono and may want a rematch later on, though never says. Or, he may have been saying what he thought. He would probably say the same about himself if he were to fight Lavos and fell beneath its might. He told the truth to Frog and nothing more. "He fell because he was weak." I can not picture this being said hatefully, but thoughtfully. After all, Magus also attacked Lavos and failed, and if Crono fell, too, having already beaten Magus; Magus at that point would be speculating on how powerful Lavos really is, to beat the person who beat him.

He would definitely have to respect Lavos' power after that and it may have been his goal TO have Crono resurrected for that purpose. I mean, if your power failed and his power failed, and you know that you two are the strongest there is, it would be a pretty safe guess that it would take your combined power and then some to bring down the bigger foe.

Magus is very intelligent, very calculating, and patient to a fault. I don't think that he fully understood the capacity of the Time Egg, and was suitably impressed by it, but I don't believe he spent much time resenting Crono for being saved and not Schala, given the facts I listed above.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2010, 10:29:45 pm »
Also, you're forgetting that if Schala were to be pulled out at that time, then the rest of the Crono crew would never made it back to safety, including Magus, which would make for a time paradox that would ultimately wipe out Janus and Crono and Crew and then Schala herself for being saved in such a way. Because you have to imagine that if she was pulled out by Magus in the future, she would not have been able to teleport him to safety, which would mean that he wouldn't be able to save her, yet he did. Kind of confusing when you think about it.

Yes, they wouldn't get out safely. But then again, they, like Schala, are TB's. At this point, there is one thing they are needed for: stopping Dalton, since even though he too is a TB, the Blackbird would not be destroyed and the Daltonites could easily take over after that. Well, they could take care of them after a return trip there, though.

_Janus_

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2010, 08:28:10 am »
True, at that point, Dalton was still a pain in the butt.
And it's also very well thought that he may have thought that combining their powers was the only viable option to defeat Lavos's great power.
But I can't help but to feel sorry for poor little Schalla

idioticidioms

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Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2010, 08:38:17 am »
Lol, if for nothing else, she serves to keep the story going. Speaking from outside of the Cronoverse, if she were saved at that point, there would be no story line for Chrono Cross. And while some people say that it wasn't that great of a game, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think Zelda and Princess Peach both have her beat on traumatic experiences, if it's any consolation.