Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?

[_Janus_]

True, more Zelda than Peach, but still, Schalla is so sweet.

I have a couple questions about the timeline issues, can I post them here or shall i open a new thread?

[Thought]

If they are related to Magus and Death Peak, ask away here. If not, feel free to create a new thread.

[Mortalshuffle]

Who knows, he might have even tried pursuing the Time Egg thing on his own afterward, though how he would manage to get to Gaspar without the gates and Epoch, is anyone's guess.

Why would Magus need to go to the End of Time to ask Gaspar how to make a Time Egg? With the gates closed off after the defeat of Lavos, he could get stuck there without access to the materials he would need to build it in the first place. We know Gaspar was working on the Time Egg on a secluded island in 12,000 BC before he was thrown into the gate that brought him to the End of Time. Magus’ reason for going back to that era at the end of the game may have had more to do with searching for Gaspar’s research on the Time Egg than anything else. And if Lavos’ energy is necessary to the process -- I only say this due to the necessity of the characters going to Death Peak where, depending on the translation, Lavos either reigns or gives birth to its offspring -- then 12,000 BC would offer a time and place where Lavos was alive, though dormant after the destruction of Zeal. There would be no need for a Schala clone doll if he were to attempt to rescue her in a moment in which there were no witnesses. Like, say, after Schala sent the characters to safety with her pendant? Belthasar and Lucca were capable of creating Time Eggs on their own. Why shouldn’t Magus be able to as well?

However, a Time Freeze isn’t always guaranteed with a Time Egg. If it was then Belthasar would have rescued Schala in the method outlined above instead of the events of Chrono Cross occuring. The dimensional distortion that pulled Schala into the Darkness Beyond Time must have been stronger than the effects of a Time Freeze, but not strong enough to negate all of the capabilities of the Time Egg. Instead, the Time Egg created a wormhole to the DBT. From his research facility in 2300 AD, Belthasar could have learned about Magus’ failure and started orchestrating the ridiculously complicated plans we see in Chrono Cross.

[Quenditar]

A bit off topic, but I'm surprised that this thread made it to three pages without this quote from Radical Dreamers:

"Go, Serge! You're forgetting what's important...!"
Magil's eyes look straight over my shoulders.
"Don't repeat the same mistake I did! Protect... Kid..."

Since Magil had in the previous scene moved to protect Kid, it's hard to imagine what he's talking about other than his time as the Prophet.  Which would mean by that point he considers everything he did during CT a mistake, and it's easy to read the line as specifically including Death Peak (trying to rescue the most useful person rather than the most important person is exactly what Serge does to provoke the line).  Then again, in this timeline he did get his second chance, so it's not the most useful for this thread.

I see the arc going like so:

Pre-Ocean Palace: Magus wants Lavos dead, and he cares nothing for grandfather paradoxes or Schala's welfare.  I find it more plausible that Magus doesn't care about the possibility of paradox than that he has the deep knowledge of chronophysics necessary to understand the non-existence of paradoxes; his education was cut off around fourth grade.

Ocean Palace: Magus starts having second thoughts once he sees how much pain Schala is in.

North Cape: At this point, Magus might be suicidal.  Lavos won handily and Schala is nowhere to be found - he's been looking.  I think it's as the party walks away that all the pieces click together in his mind and he decides to join up.

Death Peak: This is the part I'm still not sure about.  I can't decide between "gathering data and a little jealous of everyone else", "furiously jealous but refusing to show it", and "resigned farewell" - although the last seems less likely with every new Chrono game, since it reduces saving Schala to a sidequest after dealing with Lavos.

Aftergame: Well, we know he goes looking for Schala.  Not much else seems stable.  In RD there's no indication when he learned the truth about Kid.  In CC the most plausible outcomes are discovering Kid quite early (Lucca's letter) or a memory wipe (CTDS).  Is there any good reason that both aren't true, and possibly a Home/Another split thrown in to complete my confusion?

[FaustWolf]

That was a great read Quenditar, thanks! A unified cross-game character arc for Magus...gives me the shivers.

[Schala Zeal]

No idea why but the fuzz on my arms are standing on end reading all this.

[utunnels]

Yeah, but think about it, if Kato decided a darker ending, it could be.
If you recruit Magus, you have to fight him a timed battle when you try to revive Crono on the Death Peak.
 

[maggiekarp]

I think the "what's important" line is more about him not protecting/saving Schala as the Prophet, and up to that point he was operating on the idea that she was long gone and all he had to live for was vengeance on Lavos. Basically he's telling Serge love is more important than hate. Aww...

I don't think he deeply regrets not being a total asshole and swiping the time egg from his only allies, especially since Lavos is most certainly dead in the RD timeline. I feel like the stuff he says about not being able to change the past was more of a self-loathing comment than "curses! my plot to steal the egg has been foiled!", especially given the evidence in Magil's character.

[1st Mate Bob]

One of the most ingenious moments in Chrono Trigger, in my opinion, occurs during the Death Peak Clone Replacement scene (starts at 1:30 in this vid) with Magus in the party. Notice how, just after he says "Save the hellos for later! We've got work to do!", he takes a moment to step back and brood?

I've always been fascinated with what, exactly, is going through Magus' mind at this moment, and I think the answer would reveal much about his character. When the team acquired the Chrono Trigger, did the thought cross his mind that he might seize it, get Norstein Bekkler to create a clone of Schala, and then ascend the mountain himself to achieve his goal of saving her, at Crono's expense? Now that the world's only Chrono Trigger has been expended, does he regret not doing so? Magus might therefore have developed a latent animosity toward Crono (explaining such charming comments as "You got whacked 'cuz you're weak!").

Given that Crono's life holds far less meaning to Magus than Schala's, it would seem to me that he didn't just run off with the Chrono Trigger precisely because he believed she was still alive. This couldn't just be a mere guess on his part -- I mean, he's giving up his one chance to pull her out of the time stream. This man has faith! Though pangs of uncertainty probably haunted him throughout the rest of the game.

Just thought I'd ponder aloud, because it's fun. See what can come out of a simple sprite animation and text box?

I don't know if this was brought up yet or not, but... wouldn't Norstein Bekkler need to have had at least some sort of interaction with Schala before he can create a clone? As far as the story with Chrono Trigger goes, even if you don't ever go to his tent before Crono's death, it is assumed that after bumping into Marle, you would take them around and explore the fair. By doing so, Norstein Bekkler would have had to have some sort of contact with Crono, even if it's just seeing him. This would allow him to create a clone of him, or anybody else he's met for that matter. Because he hasn't met Schala, he couldn't possibly make a clone of her. Without a clone, Magus would not have been able to pull her out of that moment in time.

[Syna]

Mortalshuffle, I know i am late, but you are WIN. That was an awesome post. I love the wormhole idea.

I agree with what's been said, the TB is the reason I think Magus didn't save her, at that point. Nobody would be there to teleport them out of the Palace, etc., etc. Magus is thinking long-term here, and he knows Lavos needs to die.

I can see why people would think that revenge on Lavos comes first, but you must remember, Magus keeps his cards very close to his chest. In fact, Magus denies the existence of said cards, you idiot. Every encounter he has with Schala as the Prophet and as his younger self points to his care for his sister. To me, his moment of acquiescence when Schala asks him to spare the time travelers is Magus' equivalent of choked-up teary-eyed angstbucketness. I mean, come on, he so rarely gives people the time of day, much less credit, much less the ability to influence his actions in any way, shape or form. He had the opportunity to off those meddlesome kids and he didn't take it because of her.

I can certainly see an interpretation where he has a change of heart - that's a pleasingly dramatic development - but I don't see any direct evidence for that, per se. If you feel he did, it's more of a personal thing, in other words. We don't really know that much about Magus' life pre encounter with the team other than he had Nagi making up songs about his badassery. My conception of Magus is as an extremely ostentatious individual, and personally, I don't think Schala was ever far from his thoughts. Think of the DS ending: he erases his goddamn memories after lamenting that his life has no meaning if he can't save Schala. Albeit in his classically stubborn, pissy, indignant way, but that's quite a statement.

Does this mean he doesn't want revenge for revenge's sake? Hell no. He is dead devoted to destroying Lavos, and how. I just think Schala is ultimately more important than that, and given how cognizant Magus is, I strongly think he knows that the two goals are inexorably intertwined. Magus would have known that Schala and Lavos are connected, as is canon in the DS version and CC; he was close to his sister and saw the rise of the Mammon Machine.

Getting into my personal canon here, but: I think of Magus as a supremely intuitive person. He senses the Black Wind and the presence of death. This doesn't mean he's a prophet -- note that Crono doesn't actually die, of course -- but he does know shit he shouldn't know; he is preternaturally aware. In my head, if Schala were dead, he would be know, but she is not. The reality is far worse, and he can guess at that. After all, look what happened to his mother.

[idioticidioms]

You left out the fact that He has an almost photographic memory. When he returned to the past, he didn't so much sense the stuff about to happen, but knew it would happen in some form or another. He remembered his childhood with startling vividity and was able to use that, along with his logical order of thoughts to assume that Crono and Crew would have followed him back through the time rifts to where Lavos Originated. After all, he had the presence of mind in the Middle Ages to know exactly what Crono and Crew were talking about when they stated that they thought he had created Lavos, saying 'Fools, I didn't 'create' Lavos. I 'summoned' him from his place of slumber.'

Note, of course, that is not the direct quote but written somewhat in my own words. What Magus said at that point held the same exact meaning.

I would not have put it past Magus to have concluded, through what he had let slip and through knowing of Team Crono's goals, that they would be right behind him, at most, by a couple of days.

However, there is a lot to show that Magus had a change of heart during the game. Of course, by 'a lot' I mean a lot by Magus' standard, which isn't very much.

I do think you're dead on with his cunning against Lavos and his feelings for Schala, but I don't think that his feelings for Schala held too much of an impact on his decision to spare Team Crono. I mean, it definitely played a part in his decision, because he could have just as easily gotten rid of them once and for all so they couldn't interfere unintentionally in his plans while trying to follow their own. He could have killed Glenn when he had the chance up on the Mountain instead of turning him into a Frog. Magus has a thirst for the mischievous and cruel. I think he was rather indifferent to the thought of offing Crono and Crew and probably would have let them go on his own volition if not for their tampering with his goals.

Though, with his logic, he should have known that it was due to them that he was even able to see Schala again, but I don't think he truly realizes this until Lavos defeats him before obliterating the Crono clone.

At that point of the story, you see an almost imperceptible change in Magus' demeanor, which symbolized a massive change in how he thought of things.

After his defeat to Lavos in the Ocean Palace, he had to consider his goal as impossible to reach on his own. As a person who has prided himself on overcoming every single boundary in his way to his goals, I think he contemplated giving up, which is where you find him after losing Crono. Standing on a ledge, overlooking the Ocean, realizing that all of his plans had been for naught.

Then Crono and Crew showed, shy of Crono. You're given the choice to slay Magus then and there and receive his Amulet, or to allow him to join your team. Either of which would have been welcome by Magus at that point, though obviously he would prefer to go with them so he could continue towards his goal of seeing Lavos defeated. At that point, Magus is highly curious about their team, how they are able to work together and what makes them so bloody efficient, considering he has never been able to count on any one person except his sister, having been raised by Mystics. I doubt the Mystics were kind to him, let alone respectful, until he proved his own worth among them and was able to stand on his own two feet.

Magus is strong and brooding without being Emo. He is perpetually sad, but cognizant enough to rise above it and I think, personally, that he found some small bit of happiness in traveling around with Crono and Crew and being trusted so completely, even after all he had done. I think it did him some good to find more people as caring as his Sister, though I also don't think he was much of one to show it outwardly.

To say that even one of the characters didnt change throughout the entirety of the game is hard to swallow based on the sheer amount of catalytic events. It is impossible to go through any catalytic event without being changed for the better or for the worse.

Given his choice to join Team Crono, when given the opportunity, I think he made a change for the good, which would again denote what I have said here previously. Of course, a lot of what I'm posting now is what I have come up with since hitting reply. Every time I come back to this place, I seem to have a different perspective of the world. Given what I know about people and the effects any catalytic event can have, for bad or good, this is what I'm standing on for the moment.

What I mean by catalytic event is an event that acts a catalyst. We see these events many times in our own lives and don't recognize them for what they are, because we're wrapped up in them. These events, while seemingly bad or good, are neither. Whatever they seem is not important, because it's how people react to these catalysts that matter the most. People could react bad to good-seeming catalysts and good to bad-seeming ones.

The catalyst I did mention, the destruction of the Ocean Palace, the loss of Schala for a second time, the smashing of plans and dreams and the humongous feeling of failure that had to have been perpetuating around him; it is completely believable that as strong as Magus was, he was definitely contemplating throwing himself off that cliff to join Schala in under the Ocean when Team Crono showed up. The fact that they did, and the choice you make when they do, determines Magus' fate. As one who is contemplating suicide and is saved unexpectedly by the kindness of others, having their plans and dreams founded anew, etc., would have created the start of a great change in Magus' demeanor. It is shown in his actions throughout the rest of the game, very subtly. Which of course, makes perfect sense from the psychological perspective, given that for any change to take root, it has to start small. There simply wasn't enough time in the story line to show a drastic change in Magus, and all that was really shown, if the player chose to see it, was a very small, almost imperceptible change.

[maggiekarp]

Yeah.


YEAH.

[-LzR-]

Nice post, was worth the long read.

[Syna]

Hey idioticidioms, I assume you were responding to me. First of all, I want to say that you and I actually agree! Second, I hope to clarify a few things:

You left out the fact that He has an almost photographic memory.

This may be your personal canon, but do you have any evidence for it? Could you elucidate? Of course he remembers the events of the past; what I was referring to is the fact he knew as Janus that somebody he met for the first time in his life was  going to die, and his general talk about the black wind. (Of course, said person *didn't* die, but I don't think prophesy is that straightforward in CT!)

I would not have put it past Magus to have concluded, through what he had let slip and through knowing of Team Crono's goals, that they would be right behind him, at most, by a couple of days.

Of course; Frog thought the same thing in 65 mil. There was one big gate, and it's natural to assume they may end up in the same place.

I do think you're dead on with his cunning against Lavos and his feelings for Schala, but I don't think that his feelings for Schala held too much of an impact on his decision to spare Team Crono.

Ahh, OK. Well, my point was basically about his feelings for Schala, and yours seems to be more about how he learns to cooperate with the group. At any rate, I certainly agree with his mischevious/cruel side, which he shows during the fight with Cyrus and at Ozzie's Fort; but that's is not how it played out dramatically in this instance. For me, this is a big Magus Character Development Moment which illustrates what I've been saying. Magus is imho clearly quite ready to kill them; he says, "You'll have to simply... disappear!" Schala then pleads with him, and his former self says "Stop!", which is what keeps him from doing it. I don't think mischief had anything to do with his decision to spare them. Defeating Lavos is WAY too important to Magus to risk Crono's meddling. The characters even remark that the Prophet could have killed them and didn't when they are sent back through the gate; they are baffled by it; they wonder about it. To me, that is a strong indicator that killing them was his first inclination.

This scene could actually be interpreted to support what some have said: that Magus experiences his change from a revenge-focused mindset at this point. I do think that he recognizes that he has gone too far; Janus telling him to stop is certainly a poignant moment that suggests at that. But none of this indicates that Schala was a secondary concern before his arrival at Zeal, or that she had strayed from his thoughts. There is, contrariwise, evidence that she HAS been important to him the whole time.

Though, with his logic, he should have known that it was due to them that he was even able to see Schala again, but I don't think he truly realizes this until Lavos defeats him before obliterating the Crono clone.

I'm not sure I see the evidence for this. It is technically due to them he can see her, but it's due to unintentional bumbling on their part, and I'm sure he attributes it to such. Magus is not one to give fools credit.

But regardless, that's not important, and this is: I COMPLETELY AGREE that Magus goes through a change of character. I didn't mean to suggest he didn't. My contention was that I don't think it's due to rediscovering his feelings for Schala, as some people were suggesting. I think they had those in mind all the time, even if he got to such a twisted place that he was willing to do things that would have upset her in order to achieve his goal. It's not just revenge. Janus hates Lavos -- "hate" is an unbelievable understatement -- but his hate for Lavos and desire to see Schala free are one and the same.

Take into consideration the DS ending, where his concern is not to kill the remnant of Lavos but to get Schala to wake up. Again, revenge is undeniably important to him, but Schala is moreso; he's just less inclined to talk about the person he lost than his hatred because he is so withdrawn. He carries the amulet she gave him with her; EVERY TIME he is around her when she is suffering he responds. There are thematic reasons I think Schala is wrapped up in the revenge obsession, too, but I'll get to them in a minute.

So, his change of character is not that he got back in touch with his softie side and love for Schala, but rather, is exactly what you describe here:

After his defeat to Lavos in the Ocean Palace, he had to consider his goal as impossible to reach on his own. As a person who has prided himself on overcoming every single boundary in his way to his goals, I think he contemplated giving up, which is where you find him after losing Crono. Standing on a ledge, overlooking the Ocean, realizing that all of his plans had been for naught.

Absolutely. Very well put. I agree with the paragraphs after, as well. Wonderful analysis. He learns the value of companionship. Magus, as capable and ridiculously badass as he is, CANNOT do it alone, just as Crono couldn't, and this is one of the strongest and most reinforced themes of CD. So yeah, we agree!

The thematic reason I alluded to is the whole Magus/Frog story arc in light of Crono's death. Loss and the place of revenge is THE theme of that arc, IMHO. In my personal little universe, Glenn realizes a few things at the North Cape: 1) that Magus is not entirely evil, and does, in fact, know what it's like to lose somebody as important to him as Cyrus was to Glenn; and 2) that to kill Magus would perpetuate a meaningless cycle of revenge. Magus was transformed by what happened to him and callous to all else, leading partially to the death of Cyrus, which, if Frog were to fight him, could lead to Magus' own death. At that moment, Frog has lost both of his best friends, but (if you chose not to fight Magus) is able to transcend that cycle. Ironically, Magus killed one of those friends but reveals how to resurrect the other, which works out especially well if Magus is spared. Goddamn does CT have an awesome story.