A Quirk of Forward Time Travel

[warmgun]

A quick hypothetical...

A completely insignificant male human named James in 65000001 BC encounters a gate to 2300 AD.  He enters the gate and winds up in 2300 AD.  Which version of 2300 AD does James see?  (Ignore Crono Cross)

Now if you're going to complain that you don't have enough information to predict which version of 2300 AD is the correct one, this means that you need knowledge of what time travel has taken place between 65000000 BC and 2300 AD.  In other words, does James enter the gate before Crono kills Lavos?  I think that question doesn't make any sense.  James isn't aware of Crono or Zeal or whatever.  Everything that Crono does is in James's timeline's future, chronologically.

We know what 2300 AD is like "before" Crono kills Lavos because we're following Crono.  But in my hypothetical, we're following dumb, ignorant James.   What does he see in 2300 AD?

My answer?  Well, if I strictly follow the time travel mechanics of the game, as I interpret them, then James ends up in the "final" 2300 AD, the bright sunny future of a slain Lavos.  It's impossible for him to see the ruined future we've seen because all of the time travel that makes up Chrono Trigger's plot happens in his future.  The cast of Crono never venture before 65000000 BC.  So I think this has be a general rule, and one that's consistent with the storytelling of the game.  You can never see a timeline that's been destroyed due to time travel taking place in your future.

What do you think?  Is this obvious?  I started this rant intent on proving that, with Crono Trigger's time travel rules, determinism must exist.  But now I think the opposite is true.

[FaustWolf]

Whoa. You are a true Guru of Time!

Wish I had something to add, but it seems logical enough. Whichever future James ends up in depends on Crono's decision to time travel, and his success in destroying Lavos. Thus, Crono essentially determines which future James goes into. That's pretty powerful.

[V_Translanka]

Isn't 64,999,999BC a year after 65,000,000BC?

[warmgun]

Isn't 64,999,999BC a year after 65,000,000BC?

LOL, my bad.  It was late.  I've fixed the original post.

[V_Translanka]

Okay then, I think that though it will all be James' future, that the events Crono goes through still need to occur in real time once for them to effect any future James travels to. It's possible for James to travel while Crono is still going through the Entity's plan and thus James would travel to the ruined future the same as Crono...though once Lavos is defeated by Crono & Co. and the Entity's Gates are closed, James would arrive in Keystone-2's fancy new Lavosless future...

[warmgun]

You can't define how long something takes in "real time" in James' future.  You're suggesting that if James waits 2 months then he'll end up in the good future because it takes two months for Crono to kill Lavos?  Crono's personal time should have no influence on which future James ends up in.  When talking about time travel, it makes no sense, imo, to say something like James needs to wait for Crono to do something in the future.  Whatever Crono is going to do, he's already done it, relative to James, because it is in James' future.  Therefore, he'll wind up in the good future no matter what.

[V_Translanka]

But we're shown that nothing happens in the future without it happening first...Basically you're saying that there is no present ever and that all time is fated out already...If that were the case then the future would be changed immediately after the Entity decided to change things...

[BROJ]

warmgun, I think the time-error theory addresses this issue, if I'm not mistaken. It essentially allows timelines themselves to be expressed in states of change. So it follows that the future James sees is all dependent on what time-error coordinate he is currently subjective to.

Edit: However, as time-error proceeds, the destination in which James will arrive will, in turn change, subject to intermediary changes or interference between the time left and the time arrived. Balthasar's case proves this point; instead of arriving in a destitute, post-apocalyptic world at say, t_e=1(initial condition of CT), he arrives at a flourishing future to found Chronopolis at say, t_e=2(CC).

The attached picture visualizes what I mean, in that a timeline is simply a derivative of time error flow at a certain point.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[warmgun]

warmgun, I think the time-error theory addresses this issue, if I'm not mistaken. It essentially allows timelines themselves to be expressed in states of change. So it follows that the future James sees is all dependent on what time-error coordinate he is currently subjective to.

Edit: However, as time-error proceeds, the destination in which James will arrive will, in turn change, subject to intermediary changes or interference between the time left and the time arrived. Balthasar's case proves this point; instead of arriving in a destitute, post-apocalyptic world at say, t_e=1(initial condition of CT), he arrives at a flourishing future to found Chronopolis at say, t_e=2(CC).

The attached picture visualizes what I mean, in that a timeline is simply a derivative of time error flow at a certain point.

Hmmmm.  I didn't know about this time-error theory.  I read the encyclopedia entry this morning and I've been thinking about it all day.  I think I like it.  It makes a logical conclusion about consistency amongst the gates from a lot of different pieces of info given from the game.  Calling it a separate dimension of time is an elegant way to describe it.  And you're right, it would also give a clear answer to where James would end up. 

I need to think about it some more.  Its unnerving that where James ends up depends on how long Crono spends in some alternate timeline, that James would have to wait until Crono does something in the future to see the outcome of Crono's actions.  In an intuitive sense, waiting for something in your future to happen makes no sense, but I suppose this is a fundamental property of gates rather than of timelines, themselves.  Is there a dedicated thread for this theory?  I'd like to argue it in more detail.

[Chrono'99]

James' destination doesn't exactly depend on Crono, not in the way you worded it. James ends up in both futures. When Crono visits the ruined future, he can stumble upon James. After Crono alters time so that there's a bright future, James still ends up in the future, from Prehistory. The same thing happened to Belthasar. Note that it's not a dimension split; it's just two versions of the same timeline in a different arrangement (James from the bright future can't meet James from the ruined one).

[FaustWolf]

Ah, Belthasar. That's right! See why we need you here, Chrono'99?

[BROJ]

James' destination doesn't exactly depend on Crono, not in the way you worded it. James ends up in both futures. When Crono visits the ruined future, he can stumble upon James. After Crono alters time so that there's a bright future, James still ends up in the future, from Prehistory. The same thing happened to Belthasar. Note that it's not a dimension split; it's just two versions of the same timeline in a different arrangement (James from the bright future can't meet James from the ruined one).

Wouldn't it be simpler to refer to the various timelines as recursive coordinates of time error? That said, as for James(old future) and James(new future) not being able to meet─not necessarily. An Angeles Errare, or something similar would enable this. And should the argument arise... what is a dimensional split that the creation of a new timeline is not. As far as I can tell both dimensionserr... recursive coordinates still exist after their respective processes. And further, another inconsistency; how can two timelines be both active(as in James arrives in both) and still one be discarded to the DBT/TE─a state of passivity. To me, it seems a contradiction of convenience.

[Chrono'99]

Serge's spliting of the dimension is a very particular case. Nothing really indicates that regular time traveling splits the dimension everytime.

In any case, yeah "recursive coordinates" is a good way to call this whole concept. You can even whip up timeline diagrams with two axes due to that! like the one in this topic (not sure if this one's up-to-date in terms of canon understanding though).

[FaustWolf]

Nothing really indicates that regular time traveling splits the dimension everytime.

Does Future Magus' quote that "there are as many worlds as there are potentialities" have any bearing on this understanding? Seems to me that Kato is positiing infinite dimensions, a Multiverse.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Does Future Magus' quote that "there are as many worlds as there are potentialities" have any bearing on this understanding? Seems to me that Kato is positiing infinite dimensions, a Multiverse.

That's exactly what Kato is hinting at.  That there are infinite universes, each one subtly different from each other.  I proposed a conceptual fan game to Zeality and Thought a while back that dealt with this very concept.  In it I said,

"Now imagine that our universe is a bubble.  Imagine an infinite number of bubbles going off in all directions, as far as your imagination will allow it.  Now pick one bubble - that is our universe.  You see, each bubble represents another universe.  The bubbles touching ours; those universes are the most similar - but each one is different in at least one small way.  As you go further from our bubble - our universe - the changes become bigger and more complex, becoming less and less like our own.  There are an infinite number of possibilities, an infinite number of universes!  There are universes where our fairy tales are real, universes where you and I aren't human, universes where we made different choices in life, universes where you and I are the villain!  It's incredible, isn't it?!"

The villain of this story is a strange, but intelligent young man.  Using his mindpower he is able to invent a giant machine - a giant telliscople.  Using this machine and his unique observatory, he is able to see across the fabric of time and space and see the other universes.

He primarily enjoys watching his alternate selves, and soon he starts to see how his life could've been different had he done this or that.  And he realizes that he isn't unique.  He isn't one of a kind anymore... because there are an infinite number of him's in an infinite number of universes!  He obsesses only only watches his other selves, not caring about anything else, and eventually he is consumed by it.

His desire slowly grows... and soon, his plan takes shape.  In order to be unique, in order to be one of a kind, he begins to devise a way to destroy entire universes.  Entire worlds erased just so he can be unique.