Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

[utunnels]

Wow, after having been away for a couple of weeks, I find the Compendium completely renewed. Can't say I don't like the new look, but I'm used to the good ol' Compendium.

Long time no see. I hope you don't get lost after such a long absence...

[Chrono'99]

Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.

This. It IS possible that a version of Crono's party (the "past" version) fights the Dream Devourer "before" Lavos is defeated by the "present" version of Crono's party. I'm putting all these words in quotation marks because I use them in terms of Time Error, not normal time.

That's why I'm not sure you understood the theory correctly, art_garfunkel. You brought up Time Error as if we didn't take it into account already. We have at least 4 people here that came up with the same theory; it's not any more complicated than any other explanation. Again, think about Fiona's Forest. "Past" versions of Crono's party will see the forest when the "present" versions of them (the versions that the player controls) did not.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

And what happened to Shadow D. Darkman? Did he get... banned?

Nah, I'm still here. They just saw fit to limit some things to discourage posting over 15 times a day. I guess FATE set me up to be an example. *grim smile*

[art_garfunkel]

Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.

This. It IS possible that a version of Crono's party (the "past" version) fights the Dream Devourer "before" Lavos is defeated by the "present" version of Crono's party. I'm putting all these words in quotation marks because I use them in terms of Time Error, not normal time.

That's why I'm not sure you understood the theory correctly, art_garfunkel. You brought up Time Error as if we didn't take it into account already. We have at least 4 people here that came up with the same theory; it's not any more complicated than any other explanation. Again, think about Fiona's Forest. "Past" versions of Crono's party will see the forest when the "present" versions of them (the versions that the player controls) did not.

The only thing I fail to understand is your over-complicated explanation of what seems to be a very simple concept. The DBT is subject to Time Error. Therefore the Devourer can not exist from Chrono and co.'s perspective until Lavos has been defeated.

Your forest example seems to back up what i'm saying. Just like Chrono will not see the forest in 1000 AD until Robo changes the past, Chrono will not see the Devourer until Lavos is defeated.

[Acacia Sgt]

But they are not saying that the Crono who fights the DD is the same that fought Lavos. Isn't that simple to understand?

[Neku]

But they are not saying that the Crono who fights the DD is the same that fought Lavos. Isn't that simple to understand?

That. And, moreover, whoever is the Crono we're talking about, he can fight BOTH Lavos AND Dream Devourer, meaning that BOTH are alive.

[ZeaLitY]

Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.

This. It IS possible that a version of Crono's party (the "past" version) fights the Dream Devourer "before" Lavos is defeated by the "present" version of Crono's party. I'm putting all these words in quotation marks because I use them in terms of Time Error, not normal time.

That's why I'm not sure you understood the theory correctly, art_garfunkel. You brought up Time Error as if we didn't take it into account already. We have at least 4 people here that came up with the same theory; it's not any more complicated than any other explanation. Again, think about Fiona's Forest. "Past" versions of Crono's party will see the forest when the "present" versions of them (the versions that the player controls) did not.

The only thing I fail to understand is your over-complicated explanation of what seems to be a very simple concept. The DBT is subject to Time Error. Therefore the Devourer can not exist from Chrono and co.'s perspective until Lavos has been defeated.

Your forest example seems to back up what i'm saying. Just like Chrono will not see the forest in 1000 AD until Robo changes the past, Chrono will not see the Devourer until Lavos is defeated.

Still, after Chrono Trigger is said and done (let's say November 600 / 1000 A.D.), a version of Crono is going to pop out in October 600 A.D. and see the finished forest, wonder what's going on, and then disappear due to Time Bastard. So it's possible that the visits to the dimensional vortices is from the point of view from a past version of the party, but sort of unlikely, since it's doubtful Kato has everything as rigidly pegged as we do. Perhaps this explanation is suitable if it makes the most sense as part of a larger framework or something.

[Magus_Brokenhart]

Well, been a long time since I had net! Let's see how much has changed! First off...

Dalton

Why are people such Dalton-haters? Just because he can't beat your whole party that means he is weak and pathetic? He has control of the Golem family,  has great military skills (Via becoming leader after the fall of Zeal, as well as the Porre army.), and great technological knowledge. You didn't see Lucca adding the wings to the Epoch. He also reached somewhat of a rank in Zeal, which is a lot in itself, since there were so many natural magic users to compete with in Zeal. He is obviously a person of great power. Now, if they make an FMV ending, it is obviously of importance. If Dalton was indeed the one who took the Masamune, this would hold specially true, since his dark dreams were stronger than the dreams of Melchior, Crono, Cyrus, Frog, and any of the other Masamune users in history. Now, I just believe that the music that played the last time you meet Dalton is to reflect what the party thinks of him. They underestimated him, and paid the price.

Magus

I don't fully understand all the detailed theories and all, but I do think he's the Magus who was on the team. Maybe he's not using "future" in a literal sense. He just means that Lavos was already defeated. I know this will sound silly but...Didn't Marle say that the the Time's Eclipse was cold? That would explain why Magus was using his cloak. >_>'

Don't any of you believe that saving Schala was his intention from the beginning? He knew he would not be able to be at peace with Schala as long as Lavos was still around. To me, destroying that threat was more important. Once that was taken care of, his mind would clear, and he'd have time to find Schala and cherish his time with her.

As for Magus being emo...He was always balancing out his negative emotions, anger and sadness. Anyone that has gone through what he has, would be mentally crushed. I mean, look at how Schala wanted the end of existence. I'm sure that underneath his rugged and sadistic exterior, he was the saddest of all beings. He had always thought that the only thing that could beat might, was even greater might. Spent years and years growing stronger. It became even more of a philosophy. He failed tragically, and once he found out that he could not do anything, no matter how strong he grew, he'd fail. This would obviously crush everything he believed in. His current existence would be useless, and a burden, and he truly didn't know of any other way to save Schala. I think he wanted to start anew, with the hopes that by some unlikely miracle, he'd find another way to save her. If he is Guile, he chose a different path (Enigma?) than brute power. Or MAYBE he is working for Belthasar the whole time, and cloaking himself as he follows the CC team around, like the 4th shadow might hint. I myself always thought that Magus never found Schala, so he went mad(dder) with hatred, and stole the Masamune to wage war on Guardia 1,000 A.D. Then the Masamune would absorb his evil nature, itself being tainted, while Magus was cleansed of both his evil nature, and memories. He'd then put on a mask, call himself Guile, and make up an age for himself. Oh well, I was at least partly right. >_>

By the way, if you choose to fight Magus, are you sure he dies? I always thought he just escaped, and returned Frog back to human form later out of respect. I don't think he held enough hatred towards Frog to fight him to the death. He had more important fish to fry, and decided to escape. That would explain why Magus appears wether you fought him or not.

One last curiosity, and the silliest of all...Were the Shades, and Dalton using elements in place of magic, or am I drunk?  o_O


 

[Shadow D. Darkman]

No, you were not drunk. They were indeed using Elements in a magical place. Why is that do hard to believe?

[Onikage725]

The only thing I fail to understand is your over-complicated explanation of what seems to be a very simple concept. The DBT is subject to Time Error. Therefore the Devourer can not exist from Chrono and co.'s perspective until Lavos has been defeated.

That's the thing... I'm saying the same thing that you are, just with a different conclusion drawn at the end. The DD can not exist from the anyone's perspective until Lavos has been defeated. And when changes are made to the timeline, that timeline is wiped and replaced with the new one (excluding the split of Home World and Another World). Yet the game presents the DD in a timeline where Lavos can be fought, areas that changed immediately upon his death are unchanged, and new dialog is written acknowledging his continued existence. So, we have a problem. The events as laid out in the game itself couldn't have happened.

Dalton

Why are people such Dalton-haters? Just because he can't beat your whole party that means he is weak and pathetic? He has control of the Golem family,  has great military skills (Via becoming leader after the fall of Zeal, as well as the Porre army.), and great technological knowledge. You didn't see Lucca adding the wings to the Epoch. He also reached somewhat of a rank in Zeal, which is a lot in itself, since there were so many natural magic users to compete with in Zeal. He is obviously a person of great power. Now, if they make an FMV ending, it is obviously of importance. If Dalton was indeed the one who took the Masamune, this would hold specially true, since his dark dreams were stronger than the dreams of Melchior, Crono, Cyrus, Frog, and any of the other Masamune users in history. Now, I just believe that the music that played the last time you meet Dalton is to reflect what the party thinks of him. They underestimated him, and paid the price.

Heh, technically all true. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth given the comedic nature he seems to take in the game. When I was playing last time, and he started jabbering away, I wanted to shut him up and tell him his new name was "Mid-Boss." It's just a tough thing for some to swallow to realize that Dalton went from being Ozzie2 to Kefka-Lite.

[Magus_Brokenhart]

Maybe Dalton is just insane and egocentric, but more of a genius than you would think. It takes brains to manipulate people, and engineer such machinery. Maybe he can be compared to some type of incompetent nerd that will deliver at certain situations? Do you think he did take the sword? If so, why was it abandoned?

[art_garfunkel]

The only thing I fail to understand is your over-complicated explanation of what seems to be a very simple concept. The DBT is subject to Time Error. Therefore the Devourer can not exist from Chrono and co.'s perspective until Lavos has been defeated.

That's the thing... I'm saying the same thing that you are, just with a different conclusion drawn at the end. The DD can not exist from the anyone's perspective until Lavos has been defeated. And when changes are made to the timeline, that timeline is wiped and replaced with the new one (excluding the split of Home World and Another World). Yet the game presents the DD in a timeline where Lavos can be fought, areas that changed immediately upon his death are unchanged, and new dialog is written acknowledging his continued existence. So, we have a problem. The events as laid out in the game itself couldn't have happened.

I think it is fairly obvious that this is simply an accommodation for gameplay. Do you really expect them to rewrite all the dialog and create a whole new post-Lavos world for you to run around in? As cool as that would be, clearly they did not.

[Onikage725]

Maybe Dalton is just insane and egocentric, but more of a genius than you would think. It takes brains to manipulate people, and engineer such machinery. Maybe he can be compared to some type of incompetent nerd that will deliver at certain situations? Do you think he did take the sword? If so, why was it abandoned?

Well, there's no sign of him later. Maybe he got himself lost in another portal after his victory. Or maybe in one of the Chrono/Marle survive theories they exact revenge on him. It's not like they couldn't kick his ass, espcially if they confronted him with Lucca. We know he (or at least Porre) sacked Truce and Guardia Castle, but we also have hints that in CC Guardia still exists. Maybe it was a last-ditch resistence effort that drove them back and cost Dalton his life (or drove him into hiding). Just a theory, anyway.

I think it is fairly obvious that this is simply an accommodation for gameplay. Do you really expect them to rewrite all the dialog and create a whole new post-Lavos world for you to run around in? As cool as that would be, clearly they did not.

A New Game + is a simple accommodation for gameplay. That doesn't mean we give serious consideration to the canonical merits of Frog marrying Leene. 

It's perfectly ok that we disagree, in my mind. These are, after all, theories and speculation. It's the matter-of-fact statements like "ridiculous" and "absurd" that are troubling. Especially considering that your theory seems to rely on the crutch of gameplay convenience and general developer laziness.

If you want a specific answer, the simplest I can give is no. They didn't need to rewrite all the dialog. It isn't like most NPC's knew much about Lavos anyway. It would have gone a long way towards credibility if they hadn't given brand new dialog to Gaspar referring to both Lavos and the DD in the present tense, however.
Seriously, disable the Day of Lavos event, take down the Omen, write some one or two line bs reason to block access to the future, shuffle the vortexes so they appear in the modern era, middle ages, and antiquity, and there you go. It really wouldn't have been that hard.

[art_garfunkel]

I think it is fairly obvious that this is simply an accommodation for gameplay. Do you really expect them to rewrite all the dialog and create a whole new post-Lavos world for you to run around in? As cool as that would be, clearly they did not.

A New Game + is a simple accommodation for gameplay. That doesn't mean we give serious consideration to the canonical merits of Frog marrying Leene. 

It's perfectly ok that we disagree, in my mind. These are, after all, theories and speculation. It's the matter-of-fact statements like "ridiculous" and "absurd" that are troubling. Especially considering that your theory seems to rely on the crutch of gameplay convenience and general developer laziness.

If you want a specific answer, the simplest I can give is no. They didn't need to rewrite all the dialog. It isn't like most NPC's knew much about Lavos anyway. It would have gone a long way towards credibility if they hadn't given brand new dialog to Gaspar referring to both Lavos and the DD in the present tense, however.
Seriously, disable the Day of Lavos event, take down the Omen, write some one or two line bs reason to block access to the future, shuffle the vortexes so they appear in the modern era, middle ages, and antiquity, and there you go. It really wouldn't have been that hard.

Forgive my wording, but the sheer volume of over-analysis on the Compendium concerning CT-DS has been frustrating, to say the least. And I simply view your idea as just that, over-analysis.

And yes, I basically do just see this as an example of "developer laziness." I would not use the word laziness though. I believe it would have been a waste of their time to revamp the entire world to accommodate the DD, and they probably viewed it as a waste of time as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWc3UymosAM

Is the dialogue at the beginning of this video what you are referring to?

[Zergplex]

I apoligize for not reading this thread in it's entirety before posting, as this idea is obvious enough that others have probably posted the same thing already. I just felt the need to post my own views on the ending while they are still fresh in my mind.

Could it be that the Darkness Beyond Time exists beyond Time Error? We never get a clear explanation on temporal physics in CT and how they interact with places beyond the flow of time. The End of Time obviously runs off of time error, Gaspar is the perfect example of this. Is the Darkness Beyond Time necessarily the same though?

I propose that the darkness beyond time transcends Time Error (and the Time Stream itself) the way Time Error transcends normal time. Once something enters the Darkness Beyond Time it is as if it was always there. The DBT transcends the time stream in a way no other location does. In this way once Lavos was defeated once (the first time you beat him to unlock the Dimensional Vortexes) and he is discarded to the DBT with Schala, it is as if he were ALWAYS there. Hence if you go back into the game the DD is available while it wasn't before you 'defeated' Lavos earlier on the cartridge.

I think this 'gameplay quirk' of having to beat Lavos to unlock the DD is more then just a quirk. The DD could not exist until Lavos's defeat, but after his defeat in one timeline he will be in the DBT for ALL timelines.