Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

[Eske]

I apoligize for not reading this thread in it's entirety before posting, as this idea is obvious enough that others have probably posted the same thing already. I just felt the need to post my own views on the ending while they are still fresh in my mind.

Could it be that the Darkness Beyond Time exists beyond Time Error? We never get a clear explanation on temporal physics in CT and how they interact with places beyond the flow of time. The End of Time obviously runs off of time error, Gaspar is the perfect example of this. Is the Darkness Beyond Time necessarily the same though?

I propose that the darkness beyond time transcends Time Error (and the Time Stream itself) the way Time Error transcends normal time. Once something enters the Darkness Beyond Time it is as if it was always there. The DBT transcends the time stream in a way no other location does. In this way once Lavos was defeated once (the first time you beat him to unlock the Dimensional Vortexes) and he is discarded to the DBT with Schala, it is as if he were ALWAYS there. Hence if you go back into the game the DD is available while it wasn't before you 'defeated' Lavos earlier on the cartridge.

I think this 'gameplay quirk' of having to beat Lavos to unlock the DD is more then just a quirk. The DD could not exist until Lavos's defeat, but after his defeat in one timeline he will be in the DBT for ALL timelines.

So the sum up is: The Dimensional Vortexes/DD become accessable at all points on Time Error once created?   That would do it - though it's adding Time Error Error (6D) for just one area of the game.

Well what the hell, whatever it takes to make sense of it without leaning back on developer laziness.

[art_garfunkel]

I apoligize for not reading this thread in it's entirety before posting, as this idea is obvious enough that others have probably posted the same thing already. I just felt the need to post my own views on the ending while they are still fresh in my mind.

Could it be that the Darkness Beyond Time exists beyond Time Error? We never get a clear explanation on temporal physics in CT and how they interact with places beyond the flow of time. The End of Time obviously runs off of time error, Gaspar is the perfect example of this. Is the Darkness Beyond Time necessarily the same though?

I propose that the darkness beyond time transcends Time Error (and the Time Stream itself) the way Time Error transcends normal time. Once something enters the Darkness Beyond Time it is as if it was always there. The DBT transcends the time stream in a way no other location does. In this way once Lavos was defeated once (the first time you beat him to unlock the Dimensional Vortexes) and he is discarded to the DBT with Schala, it is as if he were ALWAYS there. Hence if you go back into the game the DD is available while it wasn't before you 'defeated' Lavos earlier on the cartridge.

I think this 'gameplay quirk' of having to beat Lavos to unlock the DD is more then just a quirk. The DD could not exist until Lavos's defeat, but after his defeat in one timeline he will be in the DBT for ALL timelines.

If that were the case, how could you ever remove him from the DBT? I see your point, but I see no reason to say that the DBT is immune to Time Error.

Why is developer laziness an unacceptable reason?

[Zergplex]

So the sum up is: The Dimensional Vortexes/DD become accessable at all points on Time Error once created?   That would do it - though it's adding Time Error Error (6D) for just one area of the game.

Well what the hell, whatever it takes to make sense of it without leaning back on developer laziness.

Oh Eske, you make every idea so much simpler. Yes that is exactly what I meant, I feel it's the most elegent solution to the problem (other then developer oversight).

If that were the case, how could you ever remove him from the DBT? I see your point, but I see no reason to say that the DBT is immune to Time Error.

Why is developer laziness an unacceptable reason?

I chose developer oversight as an unacceptable reason because it is a slippery slope for us fans to judge. Once you decide one part of the game was screwed up by laziness or oversight, you can make the same justification for other areas. Unless someone officially steps up and says that something is an oversight I consider it a part of the game's story and something we need to take into account in our theories.

Note: I am NOT saying developer laziness and oversight doesn't happen, just that as fans it's not our place to judge if something is intended or oversight. To use D&D terms we have to deal with the Rules as Written, not the Rules as Intended. Because unless Kato one of the other major names on CT step forward and says something was a mistake then we have no idea if they truly did plan it that way.

Removing him from the DBT is very easy if you really think of it. Entering the DBT puts you in the same transcendent state of time, and killing him in the DBT will remove him from it.

The real hole in my theory is that if the DBT transcends time like this then why isn't the Time Devourer mature and devouring time before you can stop it? I'll have to think on that, though I feel it may have something to do with Schala resisting (or using Kid as her link to the time error of the world).

[Eske]

So the sum up is: The Dimensional Vortexes/DD become accessable at all points on Time Error once created?   That would do it - though it's adding Time Error Error (6D) for just one area of the game.

Well what the hell, whatever it takes to make sense of it without leaning back on developer laziness.

Oh Eske, you make every idea so much simpler. Yes that is exactly what I meant, I feel it's the most elegent solution to the problem (other then developer oversight).

It is the most simple solution - but I don't know if adding another dimension will fly with everyone, I'm fine with it 

@art_garfunkel  once the TD is destroyed at Time Error Error X, he will cease to exist on all points on Time Error after that.

[Zergplex]

@art_garfunkel  once the TD is destroyed at Time Error Error X, he will cease to exist on all points on Time Error after that.

...you beat me to it AND said it in much simpler terms. Yeah, what he said.

[Magus_Brokenhart]

Nah, I think Kato is building him up to be one of the big guys in the next game. He's one of those recurring villains like Ocelot and Wesker. I got a feeling the next time we see him, he'll be much stronger, with a more serious role. If Crono and co. were in Guardia and died defending their country, then Dalton did what Magus, Queen Zeal, and Lavos could not do! Entity Vs. Dalton. >_>'

[utunnels]

In fact, Magus is Wazuki in CC, Serge's father.
1. His age.
2. His blue hair.
3. Lynx's innate is black
4. Lynx uses a reaping-hook...

Ahh, what did I say just now?

[art_garfunkel]

In fact, Magus is Wazuki in CC, Serge's father.
1. His age.
2. His blue hair.
3. Lynx's innate is black
4. Lynx uses a reaping-hook...

Ahh, what did I say just now?

Supported. 100%. This is truth. Best theory ever.

The real hole in my theory is that if the DBT transcends time like this then why isn't the Time Devourer mature and devouring time before you can stop it? I'll have to think on that, though I feel it may have something to do with Schala resisting (or using Kid as her link to the time error of the world).

My point exactly. If the DBT exists as one flattened point of space-time then it would be impossible to stop the DD, because the DD would already be finished with what it was doing.

[Eske]

In fact, Magus is Wazuki in CC, Serge's father.
1. His age.
2. His blue hair.
3. Lynx's innate is black
4. Lynx uses a reaping-hook...

Ahh, what did I say just now?

Supported. 100%. This is truth. Best theory ever.

The real hole in my theory is that if the DBT transcends time like this then why isn't the Time Devourer mature and devouring time before you can stop it? I'll have to think on that, though I feel it may have something to do with Schala resisting (or using Kid as her link to the time error of the world).

My point exactly. If the DBT exists as one flattened point of space-time then it would be impossible to stop the DD, because the DD would already be finished with what it was doing.

what?   If the DBT used Time Error Error (thus being beyond Time Error), it would have to mature at a point on that axis before any dimension below it would be affected.  Things don't happen until they happen.

In other words, his mature stage could only manifest at all points on the timeline when it occurs in Time Error. And it can only manifest at all points on the Time Errorline when it occurs in Time Error Error.  Serge's adventure is on the cusp of this event.  He is pretty much just a lucky bastard, that's all.  yay example:

Time X, Time Error Y:
Joe time travels to 12000BC.
Time X, Time Error Y+1:
Crono time travels to 12000BC

^ Joe doesn't see Crono the first time around, but Crono does see Joe the first time.

Time X, Time Error Y, Time Error Error Z:
Serge defeats Time Devourer
Time -,  Time Error -,  Time Error Error Z+1:
TD would have matured and destroyed all space time.  oops he was too late.   

[Chrono'99]

You don't really have to bring in Time Error Error to account for the DBT, even if it's logical. It's easier to say that the DBT is apart from the normal timeline(s) (since from there you can watch over the entire timeline(s), as Schala did when she heard Serge) and that it has its own time (since the notion of time still exists, i.e. the Devourer doesn't mature instantly). It's like the End of Time except it's apparently connected to multiple dimensions instead of only one.

[Onikage725]

In fact, Magus is Wazuki in CC, Serge's father.
1. His age.
2. His blue hair.
3. Lynx's innate is black
4. Lynx uses a reaping-hook...

Ahh, what did I say just now?

Especially amusing if Chrono turns out to be Miguel.

[utunnels]

No no, I was just kidding...
I mean Magus could be anyone if he appears in CC. 

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Funny, then, that Garfunkel supports it.

Especially amusing if Chrono turns out to be Miguel.

I believe that was already stated elsewhere. I found it funny, but IDR where it was stated.

[Phillies64]

Hey all. I'm new here. A long time fan of Chrono Trigger. Playing the DS version has inspired me to join this forum.

I was interested to see what everyone thought about the Dalton reveal, and this thread certainly covered that. While I'm glad to see that this theory won out, I'd rather see it within the confines of a games story, rather than Dalton just blatantly stating it as fact. I mean it was a great little bonus, but anyone else a little let down by this?

Anyway, it's great to be aboard here. I'm loving this site so far.

[Onikage725]

I believe that was already stated elsewhere. I found it funny, but IDR where it was stated.

Yeah, I got that from here in the theory section.