Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

[The Black Wind]

Assuming Eclipse Magus is in fact a Magus who was tossed into Zeal without having met Crono, the following are possibilities:

While a plausible idea, there's absolutely no reason for this. It overcomplicates matters, and as Shadow noted this is nullified by Magus's quote from CTDS. Unless, of course, you assume that he raised another group to stop Lavos, but again there is no evidence supporting this and the burden of proof is on anyone who buys this rubbish.

1.) Magus' defeat at Crono's and Frog's hands somehow heardened his heart, making him blind to his potential to save Schala and continue to focus on revenge instead once he arrived in Zeal.

After everything Magus had been through, I highly doubt Magus's heart could be hardened anymore than it already was at that moment, least of all by Crono and Frog. He clearly had bigger fish to fry because they didn't ruin his life, Lavos did. They were just a nuisance to him.

2.) The "personality change" I've been referring to all along is just a construct of the English translation and was not intended by Kato, and therefore no unseen character development is needed to explain Eclipse Magus' actions.

No, there seemed to be somewhat of a change in his personality even in the Japanese version. The fact that he admits to working with Crono and co. already demonstrates this. If anything, Magus sounded angrier and more irritable in the English version, though a change was still quite apparent. With Lavos destroyed, Magus's only remaining ambition and reason for existing is to save Schala.
 

I'm not quite comfortable with either of those explanations. Chrono'99 points out that Magus' dialogue in the Japanese retranslation provided by Arc_Impulse still feels very "Magus-y" in contrast to the way it turned out in the English version, but we've still got the fact that Magus' utter focus right now is on saving Schala, something fanwriters have long supposed yet never before demonstrated in-game. There's also this possibility...

3.) Magus, as the prophet, successfully defeated Lavos in a one-on-one confrontation (such as the one that presumably takes place in What the Prophet Seeks), witnessed the Dream Devourer's resulting creation, and then decided all of a sudden his entire existence hinges on saving Schala.

But that personality turnaround seems just a bit too quick for me as well. There are probably better explanations out there compatible with the "Past Magus origin" theory, I'm just at a mental loss right now.

Why would he refer to himself as "we", then? I didn't see any symbiote, so he's not Venom. Again, overcomplicating matters.

[FaustWolf]

Hmm, it would seem that most people subscribe to Occam's Razor in this case. If Occam is correct here, then we have to assume that Eclipse Magus is Future Magus as originally supposed(...?).

So, Chrono Theorists, what effect does this have on Time Bastard, if any? Could the Darkness Beyond Time contain exceptions to Time Bastard, perhaps? Magus never sees himself except on two occasions:

1.) In Zeal (as Janus), and Time Bastard theory takes this into consideration by obliterating little Janus to my understanding. Awww.

2.) In the Darkness Beyond Time.

Since the DBT is dimensional in nature, is it possible that Time Bastard doesn't even apply here?

And for anyone who's new here and hasn't a clue what Time Bastard is, see here.

[Magus22]

I think he probably is, and this is some sort of hook that'll give Kato reason to rewrite some of the plot in Cross. I get the feeling he's had something planned involving Magus in Cross (well, we know he did), so I can't imagine he'd pass up an opportunity to do this. Besides, it'd be interesting to see how Guile is developed into a fully-fledged character.

And think about this... why hint that Magus is Guile at all? I say this indicates Cross is planned.

There is no substantial evidence that Guile is Magus. All the "evidence" is circumstantial. Post-Trigger Magus losing his memory is not hinting that he is Guile, it is simply showing why Magus was not a part of the plot in Cross.

He did not flat out say Guile is Magus, just posting his opinion. Pyt Fumv is hinting that this new CT DS developed Magus might be Guile as he is going about what many have hoped when CC was released and analyzed in the years after. This mysterious masked character with long hair (like Magus) who hovers above the ground (like Magus) might be him and this new CT DS ending brings any idea to fruition. For those who wanted to believe Guile was Magus in CC, this new ending COULD shed some light on Guile. Again... all opinion, exactly what Pyt Fumv was conveying... why have a non-canon ending after beating the game with a mindless Magus wandering around a forest who looks like the dark magician who disappeared in 600AD? To stir conflict and surprise in the area of an individual who resembles that of a statue in Medina? I suppose the forest could be anywhere, even in El Nido. Perhaps Schala teleported him there on purpose... bahh! My mind has turned to clay analyzing this...

Magus22, the idea that we're looking at Past Magus and not Future Magus is extremely refreshing, and given that he's in the Prophet's cloak your theory is pretty damn plausible IMO, barring any Time Bastard concerns that might arise. However, we still need to address the personality difference between Eclipse Magus and the Magus who joins up with Crono & co. The Magus we see in CT is utterly bent on destroying Lavos from the moment he sets foot in Zeal, and if he really, really cared about Schala as much as Eclipse Magus does, I think he would have trashed the Mammon Machine and not simply stood by while Schala collapsed trying to power the damn thing up.

Assuming Eclipse Magus is in fact a Magus who was tossed into Zeal without having met Crono, the following are possibilities:

1.) Magus' defeat at Crono's and Frog's hands somehow heardened his heart, making him blind to his potential to save Schala and continue to focus on revenge instead once he arrived in Zeal.

2.) The "personality change" I've been referring to all along is just a construct of the English translation and was not intended by Kato, and therefore no unseen character development is needed to explain Eclipse Magus' actions.
 
I'm not quite comfortable with either of those explanations. Chrono'99 points out that Magus' dialogue in the Japanese retranslation provided by Arc_Impulse still feels very "Magus-y" in contrast to the way it turned out in the English version, but we've still got the fact that Magus' utter focus right now is on saving Schala, something fanwriters have long supposed yet never before demonstrated in-game. There's also this possibility...

3.) Magus, as the prophet, successfully defeated Lavos in a one-on-one confrontation (such as the one that presumably takes place in What the Prophet Seeks), witnessed the Dream Devourer's resulting creation, and then decided all of a sudden his entire existence hinges on saving Schala.

But that personality turnaround seems just a bit too quick for me as well. There are probably better explanations out there compatible with the "Past Magus origin" theory, I'm just at a mental loss right now.

You bring up a lot of good points there. Magus would have simply destroyed the MM and be done with it before Queen Zeal ordered Schala to power it up, if he had a second chance having been to Zeal before meeting Crono and company. I have been hearing the same conclusion about the "What the prophet seeks..." ending too... let's take a quick look...

Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.

Whether that is the future of the world from which you've come, I do not know.

There are as many worlds as there are potentialities.

A new foe has arisen here, in this endless expanse that is Time's Eclipse.

It feasts upon thoughts, dreams, and memories.

Do not think to meddle here. This enemy is my affair.

I do not know... from what I can tell, he seems to know who they are as he said "we've defeated him" (him being Lavos) and it implies together. So it is a possibly that "What the prophet seeks..." ending could very well be the result from a possible 1 on 1 battle with Magus being the victor over Lavos. Why he is in his prophet robes remains a mystery, and how he arrived is also a mystery. Perhaps after the battle, he sensed Schala... but again... my mind has turned to clay analyzing this... I'll start fresh tomorrow!


EDIT: grammar

[The Black Wind]

Hmm, it would seem that most people subscribe to Occam's Razor in this case. If Occam is correct here, then we have to assume that Eclipse Magus is Future Magus as originally supposed(...?).

As I stated before, that depends on what the player did. Eclipse Magus is from Ending #1 (the canon ending), which makes him Future Magus if that is the ending the player unlocked. If Magus is dead in your file like in Ending #2, then he's obviously not from the future, but from a dimension in which Ending #1 happened. The scenario in Time's Eclipse is the same regardless.

So, Chrono Theorists, what effect does this have on Time Bastard, if any? Could the Darkness Beyond Time contain exceptions to Time Bastard, perhaps? Magus never sees himself except on two occasions:

1.) In Zeal (as Janus), and Time Bastard theory takes this into consideration by obliterating little Janus to my understanding. Awww.

I'm not familiar with the Time Bastard, but I assumed that Janus just ended up becoming Magus as he normally did. It was said that he and Melchior were dragged into a portal, after all.

And for anyone who's new here and hasn't a clue what Time Bastard is, see here.

Thanks, I'll check that out later.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.

Whether that is the future of the world from which you've come, I do not know.

There are as many worlds as there are potentialities.

A new foe has arisen here, in this endless expanse that is Time's Eclipse.

It feasts upon thoughts, dreams, and memories.

Do not think to meddle here. This enemy is my affair.

Ah, there it is! I was looking for it but could only find the JPN version.

[FaustWolf]

It would be totally sweet if the "we" refers to Prophet Magus and Schala. C'mon everyone, you know that if Magus and Schala teamed up, they could totally clean up. Why, justin3009 is already positing Magus/Schala double techs...

I have no idea why a victorious Schala would just happen to be sucked up by the Dream/Time Devourer though, so yeah.

[Xenterex]

So what do you think happened? Dalton figured out how the distortion worked and found his way to kill Crono, Marle, and Lucca? And I wonder if Dalton actually overthrew Porre and took over.

One thing I've overlooked is how Porre beats Gaurdia with a heavy rise in militarization.  During the time Yakra was disguised  and running things within Guardia, we see a small glimpse in what could've been a similar buildup, the dragon tank.  In 600 AD Yakra and other mystics fell under the leadership of Magus.  When time was changed, they went with ozzie, and so forth, following after a powerful magic user.  If Dalton is capable of tampering with time, perhaps part of his build up in porre then combines his own ambitions with that of the latent revenge desired by Yakra/Mideena village.  They disguised themselves as humans once, certainly they could do it again.  Combining military technology, the mystics, maybe a Yakra's inside knowledge of Guardia castle, and Dalton, together with a scheme that almost worked 400 years prior, and you can have a recipe for success. 

Did the party truly encounter Dream Devourer and Eclipse Magus, or was that a plot device?

Granted, the part "does it really matter?"  is the right approach, since they didn't have an impact on the events themselves, I think the party did encounter the Dream Devourer, but maybe not necessarily in the fashion portrayed by the gameplay.  To me, it feels like Kato has written these additional connections between CT and CC (among other reasons) to further establish that Serge > Crono.  Serge uses iconic attacks similar to Crono to establish that there is a connection, and then afterwards every trial Serge goes through exceeds beyond Crono's success, or even where Crono (and even Magus) failed.  There's more set-offs than that, but for the purposes of analyzing the DS additions, I'd say that the Dream Devour encounter happens with the Crono party involved (again to a certain extent) on the basis that it furthers the Serge > Crono by demonstrating that Crono and crew couldn't beat the (weaker form?) devourer.

Now, prophet Magus and his cloak...  I think that the cloak is indeed a tie-in to Magus as the Prophet, but in the future of events. During the CT ending where everyone goes back to their respective times  (Magus to look for Schala)  Magus is shown in 12,000 BC, 'flying' around.  If he returned to that era to search for Schala he might've wore the cloak again as the means needed to manipulate the people to help him get into TE.  As the prophet he is an acknowledged member of the queen's cabinet and could use that leverage to do stuff like find the guru's old notes and then make his own 'bucket.'

Now it's your turn again. Don't worry. Retreat and you will age. Hesitate and you will die. Yes, that was ripped from Bleach, but it doesn't make this post any less spectacular

No it doesn't make it less spectacular, but it wasn't spectacular to begin with, Dark Serge.  Course, I already know you not addressing me in this challenge as you (and many others) will just ignore my comments and points because its not convenient to address in your fallacious arguments.  An appeal to to popularity (or commercial success) is not an establishment of truth, and Shadow D fails for endorsing it.

[art_garfunkel]

In response to the idea that Eclipse Magus is from 12,000 BC when Magus was acting as The Prophet:

Why is this idea so appealing? It only complicates matters. Simply because he is wearing his full cloak and hood does not mean that he is from the same time as The Prophet. It adds nothing to the story and poses huge Time Bastard problems if it is true.

Why is it so hard to accept that Eclipse Magus is post-Trigger Magus? His motivations fit perfectly, the timeline works perfectly, and it provides an excellent explanation for why Magus was not involved in the events of Chrono Cross. (It even works if you believe Magus is Guile!)

Eclipse Magus is the worst example of over-analysis I have seen in a long time.

[Lucca is Awesome]

Bringing this thread back to topic everyone,

I agree with Art in the fact that Eclipse Magus is post-Trigger Magus and let's try not to over analyze it. Instead let's move on to another analysis.

The clones: while this was touched on briefly, I actually wanted to go into it a little more.

Why is it that there are only clones for Crono, Marle and Lucca?

I think that these 3 characters specifically were the ones chosen by the entity, as you will, in order to begin the changes necessary in order to save the planet from Lavos.

Thoughts?

[art_garfunkel]

Bringing this thread back to topic everyone,

I agree with Art in the fact that Eclipse Magus is post-Trigger Magus and let's try not to over analyze it. Instead let's move on to another analysis.

The clones: while this was touched on briefly, I actually wanted to go into it a little more.

Why is it that there are only clones for Crono, Marle and Lucca?

I think that these 3 characters specifically were the ones chosen by the entity, as you will, in order to begin the changes necessary in order to save the planet from Lavos.

Thoughts?

I think it's worth noting that these three characters also appear as ghostly "clones" at Oppasa Beach later on.

[Lucca is Awesome]

I think it's worth noting that these three characters also appear as ghostly "clones" at Oppasa Beach later on.

Precisely! As quoted from the compendium:

The Ghost Children are spectres of Crono, Marle, and Lucca that first appear to Serge in the Dead Sea. There, they accuse him of negating all their hard work to save the future and thwart Lavos. Miguel then cryptically dismisses them as echoes from ones far gone.

Later, before Serge made his final voyage to the Darkness Beyond Time, they appeared on Opassa Beach and amazingly revealed much information about Project Kid, Belthasar's planning, and Serge's ultimate purpose in using the Chrono Cross to free Schala from the Time Devourer. During the conversation, the Lucca phantom even interacted with Kid as if she were the genuine article. The children then ushered Serge on.

So are the clones created by the entity to "awaken" their dormant abilities for their true purpose? I couldn't imagine what other purpose there were for the clones and their meaning carries.

Yikes, I'm starting to sound like a movie.

[chrono eric]

I think it's worth noting that these three characters also appear as ghostly "clones" at Oppasa Beach later on.

I hate to contribute to getting the thread off topic from CTDS, but I'd like to add (if I remember correctly) that at Opassa Beach was the only time that they did not appear "ghostly" (as in see-through). They appeared solid and acted mature, while at all other times they acted childish and were apparition-like.

[justin3009]

Um...Don't spam please.

But as everyone else said.  That really does make sense actually.  And you're right about them being more mature and solid on the beach.  It really makes sense now.

[Xenterex]

I'm not trying to win any popularity contests if that's what ya think

Appeal to popularity is a means of using numbers to try and win favor or establish a point, which is exactly what you are doing by...

Points at his sig

Stating facts?  You are stating opinions, as are what most of these comments are, mine included.  That picture/sig is a horrible oversight in regards to many other numbers I can pull up myself.  While sales numbers themselves are factual pertaining to the distribution of a product, that is all they are.  The interpretation of those numbers then are opinion, or incomplete.  Do these sales figures reflect gross or net distribution?  How many of those 1.5 million sales are returns? It doesn't reflect, so its a one sided figure pertaining to one aspect, and thats it.
 
1.5 millions sales in a combined form of japan and US, which despite the overhype of that RPG era, still doesn't compare to the 2 million sales of CT alone in Japan.  Despite it's 10 and 9~ ratings, I haven't seen it receive "best game of" related rewards of note, neither do its characters have a notable placing in gamefaqs character battles.  Who cares about my sources in this matter?  Because they are also opinions that probably better reflect a games reception and legacy more so than sales.  Hell, I was 2 of those 1.5 million.

Don't worry, I'm not afraid to go in a heavy discussion about it

You've already avoided me several times in more than one thread.  I have and continue to post my opinions.

note:  While i do apologize for these back and forth CC posts, I do think they do have a bit more of a relevance to DS discussion so far as it pertains that CTDS does indeed increase the connections between CT and CC.

Takes a fail to know a fail. As for me, I think that while one is entitled to one's own opinion, one should keep the negative parts to oneself.

  No duh.  Failure is a part of life; difference is for those who learn and grow from it.  Think of it as friendly negativity for the encouragement to strive to be better than my shlock, as I am just a deluded bum.
-----------------------------
Moving on.

In response to the idea that Eclipse Magus is from 12,000 BC when Magus was acting as The Prophet:

Why is this idea so appealing? It only complicates matters. Simply because he is wearing his full cloak and hood does not mean that he is from the same time as The Prophet. It adds nothing to the story and poses huge Time Bastard problems if it is true.
 

Thats part of why I suggested it is post-Trigger Magus, but also included that he may have been in using the image of The Prophet to his advantage from the perspective that he sought out Schala from 12000 BC (as seen in the ending of CT)  and then moved on from there and then ended up on the TE.   However, the cloak probably doesn't have a connection to even the image of the prophet at all.  He might had simply worn it for the ritual he used to get to time's eclipse, or even as safety gear when he worked alongside Doc Brown to create the flux capacitor he used in the ritual.

As far as the hero clones go,  Crono Marle and Lucca all share the connection that each of them experience a unique element of time.  Crono was killed and recovered,  Marle was erased and recovered and Lucca experienced her own time gate, each of these having an effect on the time line that could've resulted in some sort of time reaction that creates, or empowers a clone or magical effect that takes on their appearances.

[Fireseal]

So many posts on this thread, I've forgotten half of them already after reading everything.

Anyone notice that Fiona's forest is doomed to turn to desert even with Robo's help? While you're on the Epoch and choosing the era that you wish to visit, as I was admiring 1999AD zoomed out map, I noticed that even after doing Fiona's forest quest, the desert is still there on the map. Perhaps SE forgot it's change? Not likely I would think, since they have many people working on that game.

I also wonder if the Sun Shrine were to be accessible in 1999AD, since on that map it seems that it's no longer a mountain, but rather a forest. Since the map is zoomed out, I can't really tell. But my theory is, green earth and trees just kept growing over the Sun Shrine and perhaps its mountain started to lower in height after some time, then Lavos burned it all with its rain of fire and then you have 2300AD's Sun Shrine... But of course this is just one of those insignificant details that can't be explained.


Has this thread talked about Lost Sanctum? I'm very much curious about it.


As for the topic of Magus and Time's Eclipse, I'm not at that part yet. So is this thread solely for Magus? If so, I apologize and will post my above comments in another section.